161 replies to this topic

[Renthrak]

I agree that PVE would be a wise addition to the game. I grew up with the Mechwarrior games, from the first, through MW2, Ghost Bear's Legacy, MW2 Mercenaries, MechCommander, Mechwarrior 3, MW3 Pirate's Moon, MechCommander 2, Mechwarrior 4 and most recently MW4: Mercenaries. I've also read the books, and even had a little toy Bushwhacker and Hunchback IIc when I was young. While the politics and intrigue of the IS houses provided a deep backdrop, I always felt that the most interesting part was the Clan invasion. The whole society suddenly being turned on its head by the appearance of a technologically superior and culturally incompatible foe, the descendants of a lost golden age now returning to claim the galaxy, makes for a rather more satisfying motivation compared to assassinating a minor noble from a rival house because some snotty prince wants attention. (No flames please, just an example)

The entire idea of starting the timeline around the beginning of the Clan invasion would seem to work well with the concept of the players being on the Inner Sphere side, with AI Clan opponents. Since it's the Clan invasion and players only get IS mechs, and there's no salvage anyway, how else are we going to get the Clans in-game otherwise?

Practicality aside, there has always been something that bothered me about purely PVP games, with a supposedly rich background story. Regardless of how interesting the plot may be, they always seem to come down to grudge matches between the players, totally divorced from the canon concepts. Eventually, it's not about the Resistance vs. the Dark Empire anymore, it's just about clan {ABC} kicking the butts of clan [XYZ], which would taste the same no matter which game they're playing.

Having a 'third-party' enemy changes the scenario considerably. Not just in the background story, but for the actual people playing the game, it's easier to put aside bad feelings when there is a common foe from time to time.

That's really the dark side to PVP in a game with a real plot. When it's always real people fighting real people, it means that inevitably real people will lose. For one person to taste the joy of victory, someone else who has just as much of a right to enjoy the game must taste bitter defeat. It's all well and good to look at that from a perspective of sportsmanship or simple maturity and say "that's just how the game is played", but it's inescapable that it doesn't feel good to lose. In fact, one of the biggest issues that PVP games invariably confront is how to make the game fun for the winners AND the losers.

There are certainly people who derive their enjoyment of the game from competing with other people, pitting their skill against another person to see who's better. There's nothing wrong with that, and in fact it would be odd to interfere with that style of play. However, there are also those players that derive their enjoyment from acting out the story itself, independent from whether they are better at the game than someone else. From that perspective, I would expect that a purely cooperative game mode may be more rewarding for some players.

For myself, I would spend the majority of my time playing the game where I can join other real players fighting against AI opponents rather than PVP. If the XP and C-Bill rewards are dramatically reduced in Co-op compared to PVP, I would still do so, because I enjoy playing the game more than I enjoy competing with someone else.

One thing that the Devs have mentioned is the difficulty of implementing player participation in historical battles that have a fixed outcome. Quite frankly, I don't think there is any need to worry about that side of things. There aren't many instances where a random battle between a dozen Mechs on either side was the entirety of the scenario. Whether the Inner Sphere or Clan Jade Falcon wins a particular skirmish doesn't have to impact the canon result of the campaign. That's the beauty of a Massively Multiplayer system. Since every player won't be Victor Steiner-Davion, it's not necessary to lock the players into documented historical roles in order to advance the story. If Clan Smoke Jaguar is annihilated whether the player wins or not, then whatever the outcome of the player-influenced battles are, canon isn't broken.

So, I would love to see some PVE included to complement the PVP.

Edited by Renthrak, 18 August 2012 - 05:41 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Epitaph, on 17 August 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

I agree some sort of PVE should be implemented. Even if its not specifically a PVE game mode, but just like adding AI non-mech vehicles to matches for a bit of variety.

I'm also a firm believer the Clans should be PVE at first, opening to players after some time.

I agree with this.

Also, the interview with Russ Bullock (President of PGI), posted on DualShockers, seems to indicate that we may yet get our wish:

Quote

G: On that train of thought, since there definitely is a segment of players that prefer cooperative multiplayer to competitive, have you ever considered introducing PvE missions in the future, with players prompted to team up and fight against AI-controlled opposing forces? Maybe as part of an actual storyline?

R: I think the answer is similar to this question as the last. Having said that, I think this could possibly be a first step in bridging towards a more full traditional single player experience. It’s safe to say that the PvE question is one of the most popular and it is probably one of the very first things we will explore once our core game is complete and we go Open Beta.

-----

G: I know it’s very early to even think about it, but have you ever thought about including elements from other tabletop games of the Battletech/MechWarrior franchise? I’m thinking about AeroTech, BattleSpace, BattleTroops and the others.

R: Never say never, but for us MechWarrior Online has always been about the Battlemech and we want players to feel like the most elite warriors in the universe. Under that philosophy, those other combat arms have more of a chance of showing up in MWO as AI controlled entities then player controlled.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

I'm hoping for some kind of Co Op campaign or single mission maps vs the Clanners. All they really have to do is copy maps from previous games and they will make instant gold. Look at the last mission for MW 4 Mercs from the rogue ending. You're defending this huge base loaded with vehicles and turrets against a rather large assault. That would be awesome on MWO and an invading Clan force would be perfect opposition.

[Bagheera]

Sternus, on 18 August 2012 - 04:09 AM, said:

>>very good points raised, clipped for general reply<<

You basically bring up the crux of the issue. The MMO/PvE market and the competitive PvP market want different things out of a game. I'm fine with complete separation between the two in a Mechwarrior franchise, but that essentially becomes a completely new game or it suffers from lack of proper development attention and causes the core, original MW:O to suffer the same.

There's no reason that a later "expansion" using the core MW:O elements could be created after this game is up and running (and hopefully successful). But as it stands, I would rather they focus their resources on this game. Trying to shoe-horn PvP into PvE, as you point out, as always lead to all sorts of problems. In this case the order may be reversed, but the effect would be the same. A game trying to be both and being good at neither.

[Icebound]

After getting wrecked in PvP one too many times, or joining a particularly rage filled game, it's nice to fight against enemies that won't scream and cry when they get beaten. I find that in PvP games that have a healthy dose of PvE in them I can play for longer without wanting to ragequit myself when I can dip into PvE once in a while.

Please add in some sort of little PvE mode PGI. Hell even an open world training ground or private game simulator room would be a nice for when we need a break but aren't ready to log out.

[Hennessey]

Bagheera, on 18 August 2012 - 03:41 AM, said:

To the OP: Welcome to the wild and wacky world of gaming forums, and massive kudos on your well reasoned post. Especially since it's made 2 pages so far without much sign of trolling! That said, I will be the dissenting voice against PvE in MW:O and here is why: First and foremost: I do not want MW:O to become this: http://www.mcgamelan...997B8F91?id=148 Where big groups of enemy mechs stand around and wait for me to show up and harvest them for parts. Which is the hallmark of the MMO gameplay experience. WoW, CoX, SWToR, and pretty much every single one I have ever tried plays with exactly the same (imo boring and repetitive) gameplay. I do realize that this is not exactly what is being advocated, but I want to use this as a starting point. Second: If my MMO experience has taught me anythng, it is that MMO games with a PvE and PvP element cannot balance player abilities for both scenarios. CoX is the prime example of this. PvP as it was originally introduced into that game was rediculously fun. And it was the travel powers (flight, super leaping, super speeding, teleporting) that made it interesting and dynamic. However, as the developers attempted to respond to player complaints it was essentially ruined by adding all sorts of mechanics that were not necessary in the PvE game. For those familiar I am speaking of Travel Suppression, DR, and Heal Decay, among other tweaks that ruined PvP in that game. Third: MW:O is not targeting the MMO player market. It's just a different game. In order to appeal to the MMO crowd, we would have to introduce all sorts of things that would not fit here. For example, farming and crafting. Please, no. The day farming enters this game, I am gone. The MMO market is not going to accept (by and large, Planetside players excluded) a game where aiming is required and the RNG plays no part in combat. The market, by and large, will also not accept a game where player "level" does not equate to relative power. It's just the wrong market. We're not a shooter per se, but we are closer to that market than we are to the MMO market in game mechanics. The day that MW:O becomes the type of game where I cannot damage someone because they are level 50 and I am level 45, I am gone. Fouth: Taking an example from CoX that I actually thought was VERY cool, I would prefer to see the initial clan invasion driven by the developers, not an AI, and then handed to players after a certain point. As CoX fleshed out the relationship between competing dimensions there would be regular "Invasions" where a Dev driven team of characters (and AI driven allies) would show up in Zone and players would attempt to turn them back. Really fun stuff, and this could work well without the AI component (as AI opponents are always easy to defeat) since we are talking smaller matches rather than big open maps with potentially hundreds of players at a time. Finally: Developer resources. I would rather they make the absolutely best and most fully featured PvP game in their original vision than to have them spread their resources for both PvP and PvE, and excelling at neither. I understand the appeal for PvE, but I sincerely feel that MW:O is not the place for it.

I appreciate your argument. You raise some very valid points, and I do understand how the grinding driven and character level based systems would be an abhorration to this game. I looked at the linked picture you showed me, and I immediately understood where you were coming from. This is absolutely NOT what I would want to see.

Of course, now I am required by some code of honor to defend my position :

Firstly, grinding in some form or another already appears to be part of the system in place. While I agree with another poster that (to paraphrase) 'killing mecho-boars' would not be an enjoyable aspect of the game, that is in a lot of sense where the strict 12v12 PVP is heading:

Teams rushing just to get a victory, without much need to actually destroy the opponent. Thereby getting the XP/cash to upgrade.

That sounds very similar to a grinding/level system. The beauty of the current system is that it is not a huge difference if you've upgraded everything vs nothing (I feel like I'm in Fight Club, not being able to directly bring up the examples... damn NDA). This is a good system, and not something I would want to see changed for anything, and would not need to be changed if PVE were added.

I also think that because of the nature of this game as a 'shooter', and I use that term loosely, there is no reason to think that skills/abilities in PVP would not translate to PVE without rebalancing. Or, for that matter, is there any reason to think that balancing any of your abilities VS an AI would even come up. The reason for this is because both modes can follow the same set of rules, where the only adjusting necessary would be to the AI and their Mechs/equipment.

What I mean by this is: There is no system, nor should there be for 'classes' beyond what we already have (scout, artillery, tank). We don't need healers, we don't need certain dmg types (physical vs magic), we don't need to be 'buffed/debuffed/enraged' or any other mechanic in place for this game to work in either PVP or PVE. And, because of this, the only thing that really changes is the fact that the Mechs you are fighting against are not being controlled by people, and your only objective does not have to be just to destroy them (escort 'quest' from above, was a good example of this).

I agree that I would like to see a very solid game come out no matter what, but I simply cannot see how neglecting to put some aspect of game besides me VS you, is going to help this franchise compete. You bring up the point that this is not an MMORPG, and that (based on the points you made) is true. There are certain things that we have become accustomed to in RPGs: the classes I mentioned above, the levels, and the grinding (oh, the grinding...).

Which is what could make this into a different genre altogether if you will, and one that I have yet to see a decent game take the reins on and do it right: a MMO-FPS-RPG.

Yeah, I know this is going to be the post that gets the flamming started...

But, here is why I think this game/franchise is capable of succeeding in this particular venture:

First, the doctrine and history of this universe is amazingly rich and deep. So deep, in fact, that I don't think there would even be a need to create scenarios/histories/justifications for any storyline/quest what have you, that don't already exist. This allows the developers to concentrate on building the script programmatically instead of having to worry about building a 'script' historically. By all rights, they wouldn't really need to follow ANY storyline/event, and it wouldn't cause any problems ('Escort this guy' ... 'OK, who is he?'... 'It doesn't matter, here's some money.'....'OK!').

Secondly, while I think your point was PVP will suffer if this is focused on, what will they do after PVP is 'perfected'? Where do you go from there? Look at a game like HALO2 for instance (loose comparrison bare with me). Once you beat campaign, there's not much left to do but PVP. Sure you can do Co-op, but how many people can be with you? Certainly not all 16 you have been PVPing with.

This game can handle that problem in a Co-op mode. This game has the potential for scaling levels of difficulty from a PVE system. The survive as long as you can examples some have brought up above are a good example of this:

'What you made it through 3 waves? OK, we're going to double the mechs and make them all heavy class.'

'Oh, last time you ran this escort it was just you and a buddy, but this time you have all 30 of your clan members... Yeah, you remember those Catapults you had to face before? They're still there, but now there's 10 times as many. Oh, and BTW they brought two Jenners and an Atlas each... HF GL!'

Perhaps I'm being naive, and it wouldn't be the first time, but it doesn't seem to be that something like this would be terribly complicated or resource intensive. And I especially don't see how it would affect PVP in any way, shape, or form.

What it would do is keep the developers interested. If the game gets to a good balanced point with PVP, then really what can you add to it? New mechs? Ok... wait i can only have 4... more slots? Ok... New skins? Ok... But, what has been added to the gameplay? I have a blue Mad Cat with a Yellow Smiley for a face... SWEET! What am I going to do with it? Oh, the same thing I do every night Pinky...

On the flip side of this; If developers had the creative outlet via PVE, to create scenarios, missions, and dare I say it bosses (I know some have mentioned they don't like the idea of mecha-Godzilla in this game, but I gotta tell ya, that is content I would Pay 2 Play). It could only help keep the company interested, invested, and active.

TLDR; While I agree that this should not be WoW with Mechs, I still hold that PVE will add longetivity to the title, make money for the company, and make sure that in 2 years there are actually still more than 5 people on at any given time to play with, PVP or PVE!

Edited by Hennessey, 18 August 2012 - 03:09 PM.

[ODonovan]

I'm going to put in my vote (like I get a vote...riiiight). I'm all in favor of PvE in the game. I will say I favor balancing the game for PvP and letting PvE be an add-on, so the main flavor of the game isn't changed.


-Irish

[Maethos]

Bagheera, on 18 August 2012 - 03:41 AM, said:

To the OP:

Welcome to the wild and wacky world of gaming forums, and massive kudos on your well reasoned post. Especially since it's made 2 pages so far without much sign of trolling!

That said, I will be the dissenting voice against PvE in MW:O and here is why:

First and foremost: I do not want MW:O to become this:

http://www.mcgamelan...997B8F91?id=148

Where big groups of enemy mechs stand around and wait for me to show up and harvest them for parts. Which is the hallmark of the MMO gameplay experience. WoW, CoX, SWToR, and pretty much every single one I have ever tried plays with exactly the same (imo boring and repetitive) gameplay. I do realize that this is not exactly what is being advocated, but I want to use this as a starting point.

Second: If my MMO experience has taught me anythng, it is that MMO games with a PvE and PvP element cannot balance player abilities for both scenarios. CoX is the prime example of this. PvP as it was originally introduced into that game was rediculously fun. And it was the travel powers (flight, super leaping, super speeding, teleporting) that made it interesting and dynamic. However, as the developers attempted to respond to player complaints it was essentially ruined by adding all sorts of mechanics that were not necessary in the PvE game. For those familiar I am speaking of Travel Suppression, DR, and Heal Decay, among other tweaks that ruined PvP in that game.

Third: MW:O is not targeting the MMO player market. It's just a different game. In order to appeal to the MMO crowd, we would have to introduce all sorts of things that would not fit here. For example, farming and crafting. Please, no. The day farming enters this game, I am gone. The MMO market is not going to accept (by and large, Planetside players excluded) a game where aiming is required and the RNG plays no part in combat. The market, by and large, will also not accept a game where player "level" does not equate to relative power. It's just the wrong market. We're not a shooter per se, but we are closer to that market than we are to the MMO market in game mechanics. The day that MW:O becomes the type of game where I cannot damage someone because they are level 50 and I am level 45, I am gone.

Fouth: Taking an example from CoX that I actually thought was VERY cool, I would prefer to see the initial clan invasion driven by the developers, not an AI, and then handed to players after a certain point. As CoX fleshed out the relationship between competing dimensions there would be regular "Invasions" where a Dev driven team of characters (and AI driven allies) would show up in Zone and players would attempt to turn them back. Really fun stuff, and this could work well without the AI component (as AI opponents are always easy to defeat) since we are talking smaller matches rather than big open maps with potentially hundreds of players at a time.

Finally: Developer resources. I would rather they make the absolutely best and most fully featured PvP game in their original vision than to have them spread their resources for both PvP and PvE, and excelling at neither.

I understand the appeal for PvE, but I sincerely feel that MW:O is not the place for it.

I don't see how any reward system needs to be in place for pve at all, other then maybe a title. PVE dose not need to be a farming tool. I do think it could great way to train, add co-op mission in future and maybe even as a measure to drive cannon and time line. lets say for every first time pve match won you contribute a point to cannon time line and help move the story along( after so many points and major events of a time line period have been met, we would move to next period and not have to wait years for a mech to show in game)

As a gamer I have been around from the start (monochrome to multi-display) if there is one constant it is without a strong and large player base no game can succeed. Even pvp becomes cookie cutter after time, same builds and tactics will become a fixture. role warfare will be reduced to teamspeak (target A&B, defend base and cap base)

As to to a pve player fielding a dashi, who cares. He could be in a dropship and still most likely will be owned. pvp is combination of rock,paper,scissors (mech load out vs mech load out) and player skill. player skil being the deciding factor in most cases.

PVE cannon mission would help people new to mechwarrior become vested in cannon and promote intrest needed to keep players willing to support the game outside of just as free game to pass time. I do not believe just MW fans will be enough to keep game around long without making new fans

anyways just opinion and hope for some sort of pve, no need for gear rewards. would be great for old and new players to feel the cannon/story behind the game outside of endless pvp battles and skipping post with story backround.

[Rathverge]

PVE...Player Versus Environment. Hrmmm yep, sounds like the forums to me.

[Maethos]

would also like to add that pve mission could be a premium account or purchased directly to off set the cost of developement. hopefully a small amount with a few free events trown in.

Edited by Maethos, 18 August 2012 - 03:51 PM.

[DerKrampus]

PVE would make for an excellent training tool. Set up one-on-one battles with stock-equipped mechs of different skill levels, and use those battles to train or test different tactics and weapons without getting ganked by the rest of the opponent's team.

Alternatively, I'd like to see PVE wave battles. "The clans are coming. You're tasked with holding them back as long as you can. A team of mechs is placed into an annihilation match, with random waves of enemies. With the destruction of each enemy wave, a new wave spawns in. The game ends when all player mechs have been destroyed, or if a wave isn't destroyed within a set time limit. (Say, you have 10 minutes to deal with each wave, for example.) At the end of the game, scores are tallied up, and experience/Cbills are distributed.

[Morashtak]

50 employees.

50 employees to get the game from closed beta to limited open beta.

50 employees to go from limited open beta to full open beta.

50 employees to go from full open beta to release.

50 employees to add new content on a regularly recurring basis.

50 employees to squash any new bugs that a previous bug fix introduced.

50 employees to start the previous processes over again in order to introduce the clan mechs and equipment and get all that balanced.


50 employees to do all that AND develop PvE ?

Honestly, how long would the development process take to do all the above and put together a PvE game or sub-game? 18 months? 24 months? Longer?

Edited by Morashtak, 18 August 2012 - 03:56 PM.

[Avi Kerensky]

Personally, I would love to play a Co-Op PvE mission string or six. I loved MW4's single player, and while I enjoyed the Multiplayer as well, I would have enjoyed a coop campaign even more.

[Maethos]

Morashtak, on 18 August 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

50 employees.

50 employees to get the game from closed beta to limited open beta.

50 employees to go from limited open beta to full open beta.

50 employees to go from full open beta to release.

50 employees to add new content on a regularly recurring basis.

50 employees to squash any new bugs that a previous bug fix introduced.

50 employees to start the previous processes over again in order to introduce the clan mechs and equipment and get all that balanced.


50 employees to do all that AND develop PvE ?

Honestly, how long would the development process take to do all the above and put together a PvE game or sub-game? 18 months? 24 months? Longer?

Base code is there already as it has been said they did pve first then went to pvp. plus if game dose not generate income they wont have 50 people working on anything. my post on pve is more as a mini game could almost port old game missions into home page. this would be done to engage players into the story and keep intrest up. no need for a reward system keep just as a ingame sim for personal traing, then if intrest is high add more content with higher purpose and rewards added. most pv games that make it past a year are linked with console play also, being just a pc format were already a smaller market. Still hoping for something to be added in the way of pve

[Malavos]

I really like PvE more than PvP. And i'm a old eve online player PVP just gets boring after a while.
And PVP enables you to experience with a buddy cool matches, epic battles. Imaginate the possibilities.

[Stargell]

Logged in just to press like for this post. I couldn't agree more!

[Threat Doc]

I have long been an advocate for including PvE in MWO, since it's opening day, I think, and I truly believe you make some very good, and very funny, points, and hopefully our hosts will take all of this to heart and put paid to it some day. I have almost universally hated PvP, though I am not as opposed to it in MWO as I have been in every single other game I've ever played.

Hopefully, this game will allow for a mixture of AI and live-pilots on the same battlefield... THAT would keep things interesting for me.

[Sternus]

Bagheera, on 18 August 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

You basically bring up the crux of the issue. The MMO/PvE market and the competitive PvP market want different things out of a game. I'm fine with complete separation between the two in a Mechwarrior franchise, but that essentially becomes a completely new game or it suffers from lack of proper development attention and causes the core, original MW:O to suffer the same.

There's no reason that a later "expansion" using the core MW:O elements could be created after this game is up and running (and hopefully successful). But as it stands, I would rather they focus their resources on this game. Trying to shoe-horn PvP into PvE, as you point out, as always lead to all sorts of problems. In this case the order may be reversed, but the effect would be the same. A game trying to be both and being good at neither.

Oh no, dont get me wrong, I DO NOT want to see Our Blessed Developers rush into any kind of incomplete PvE model. You are correct, polish what you've got before complicating things further by attempting to cover all the bets. Absolutely Our Blessed Developers should above all PATIENTLY proceed with a PvE model so as not to ruin the game with a halfhearted afterthought like Star Trek Online did. Of every franchise that i am associated with i want this one to succeed and am wholly wiling to wait a couple of years for it. Nothing good and enduring happens over night. The PvE model should be a rich environment, fully immersive and streamlined. It should never be cumbersome, blockey, or feel forced. I can wait and am happy to do so. Besides i think that most of us are getting WAY ahead of ourselves with a good deal of wishful thinking at the moment. Right now we are still in a very early closed beta stage and i think a lot of what you are seeing is a general wishlist for the product in the future. IF we get a well developed PvE well then outstanding. IF we dont i am still gonna spank Jenners in my Atlas because i love the franchise and have been waiting for it to return for ages.

Edited by Sternus, 18 August 2012 - 05:35 PM.

[Alondo]

PvE will definitely need to be added to this game in a major way to keep me interested. I need to do my own thing sometimes. On the other side, my experiences with PvP in this game has been nothing but positive so far. We have a good community here, hope it continues.

[Hennessey]

Maethos, on 18 August 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:

Base code is there already as it has been said they did pve first then went to pvp. plus if game dose not generate income they wont have 50 people working on anything. [...]

I concur! Exactly what I was trying to say above. This is the unfortunate truth behind the F2P markets. It is very easy for them to flounder quickly. And to restate I'm not saying 'If PVE isn't in the game from day one the sky will rain molten drop ships of DOOOOOOM!!!'

I'm simply trying to get everybody's take on what they would like to see if it was eventually integrated, and also to try to calm the nay-sayers by reassuring them that because of the particular mechanics of this game, PVE and PVP can co-exist and not harm eachother.

That being said... 3 pages for my first forum post... and actual logical and civil discussion so far. I appreciate everyones inputs, their agreements and their disagreements as well.

If any Dev's do actually take the time to check this thread out, thank you! I hope I speak for the rest of the pro-PVErs when I say it's your baby, raise it how you will, but don't forget we love it just as much, and we want to see it succeed even if we don't get everything we want .