558 replies to this topic

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

I feel as if the time has come to have (another?) a level headed, non-previous game grudge biased discussion on legging. Everyone's favorite topic. So lets start laying out some facts before I give my opinion on how legging should be handled. I personally am unfamiliar with how it works in MechWarrior (1) and MechWarrior: Living Legends but here are how it was handled elsewhere.

MechWarrior 2 Mercs : When a gyro is damaged or suffer from internal damage or internal leg damage, your 'mech will slow down significantly. Upon destruction of the leg, dismemberment would ensue and the 'mech fell over. (I believe in just MechWarrior 2 you would simply become immobile) After, you still had full weapon and JJ' functionality, however your only means of mobility were through fancy JJ work. Destroying the only remaining leg (quads did not exist) would result in the destruction of the 'mech. Also, JJ'ing far into the air and harsh impacts heavily damaged both legs internal structure.

MechWarrior 3 : Ah yes, possibly where the phrase "You god**** legging....." really took hold within the community -- and for good reason! While you still had full customization of armor in the 'mech lab to make your legs pretty reinforced with armor, the fact they were so exposed and an easy target didn't help. Unfortunately, destroying a single leg in this game resulted in your entire 'mech going down as well. Horrible decision making on the dev's part. A step back from MechWarrior 2, not forwards.

MechWarrior 4 : For Vengeance, Black Knight and Mercenaries the same rule applied. Destroying one leg's internal structure resulted in your 'mech limping at 30% speed. Afterwards, continued damage to that leg would transfer (magically!) to the other leg's internal structure bypassing armor. Once your second leg's internals have been destroyed (internals "hit point" value varied from 'mech to 'mech), then game over. For better or worse. MechWarrior4 Mercs has been given "One hit kill protection" on RT, Legs, Head and CT. This helps prevent "alpha boats" from getting insta-kills on smaller 'mechs. Unlike MechWarrior 2 or 3, the Mechlab is quite restricting in terms of what you can do armor wise, giving a more generic overlay of options. No matter what 'mech you have, you cannot put any more additional armor on any location then a predetermined set amount.

MechAssault : Oh noes! I ran out of green health bars! LOL! //sarcasm. Fun game, horrible iteration of the Battletech universe. Getting shot in the leg made no difference other than slightly less damage as opposed to getting shot in the torsos. Ever kill a 'mech by shooting it in the finger before?

MechWarrior: Living Legends : Unfortunately, I have not been able to play this title, so my knowledge is limited. From what I do know is "legging" is still generally frowned upon. Also, there is no 'mechlab from my knowledge so which ever config you select, you cannot allocate or distribute additional armor. What you see is what you get. If someone else could help explain that would be awesome.


So, what would you like to see or be used in MW:O? Personally, I would want nothing less than MechWarrior 2 mercs, where internal damage has several consequesnces such as damage to a gyro/leg actuators result in loss of mobility, but destroying a leg does not neccesarily destroy the entire 'mech. If the developers do things 'right' legging will be a thing of a past. Not so much that people won't aim low, but it won't result in a 'cheap' kill and 'cause people to rage constantly. As a side note, should we get the "good" electronics such as MASC and directional JJ's, I'd like to see a scenario where it is possible to blow out your leg actuators by stressing them out. Likewise with high impact landings. I suppose the biggest factors to how people view legging will be in the hands of the devs and the freedom people are given in the 'mechlab. But if you consciously skimp on the armor regardless of location, expect other players to follow the path of least resistance and attack that location with full force. Its common sense.

Also, I would love to know how it is currently handled in the game tests (if they are actually happening). I guess time will tell how well leg damage is implemented.

*as a side note, I do love legging people who put zero armor on their legs in MW4, or complain about it constantly*

Edited by mwhighlander, 02 February 2012 - 02:37 PM.

[Gremlich Johns]

MW:LL and internal leg structure

Indeed, Legging, at least in the CSJ server, is frowned upon. Just because it is easy to shoot legs, does not mean you should.

My point of view is that a legged mech can be repaired, a destroyed mech cannot. In MW:LL you get more points for destruction than you do for legging and only disabling a mech.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 02 February 2012 - 02:40 PM.

[Paul Inouye]

Oh no you din't!!!

[Man From AUNTIE]

With MW4 Mercs that I am using to get my skills polished up again, on single player I find I keep legging only because the motion of the Mechs changes the impact point. I haven't been a legger on purpose when I played MW3 on the Zone, but I did leg and if that happened it was a 'oh well, sucks to be you' moment. Now there were folks I played against that legged everyone for the quick kill.

[Sug]

Man From AUNTIE, on 02 February 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

Now there were folks I played against that legged everyone for the quick kill.

I think the "quick kill" is the problem not any kind of legging mechanics. Just make the legs like 4x tougher than the torso. There's no engine or gyro or weapon feeds in the legs so I think being able to completely encase them in tons and tons of armor isn't out of the realm of possibilities.

Also i've had a high fever for the last couple days so if i'm not making sense don't worry about it.

Edited by Sug, 02 February 2012 - 02:56 PM.

[MitchellTyner]

honestly I hope the motion of the mech is realistic so the aiming is no accurate, where every step makes the mech bounce or shudder etc so only way to get accurate shots is to be still. that would make the legs so much harder to hit, also might help to make their hit boxes smaller so that weapon fire would have to be very accurate to actually hit the legs. If I'm in a light or medium and i'm fighting superior power up close I'm going to shoot you in the vulnerable points if I can ... it's a valid tactic but overused just b/c it can be.

Do you guys understand what I'm saying?

[Gremlich Johns]

Inadvertant legging isn't an issue and I doubt many of us can claim it has not happened from time to time. Players can usually figure out intentional legging if they have been playing the game for a while. Typical response is to gang up on the offending agent until he leaves or acquieces to the prohibition.

[MitchellTyner]

Gremlich Johns, on 02 February 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

Inadvertant legging isn't an issue and I doubt many of us can claim it has not happened from time to time. Players can usually figure out intentional legging if they have been playing the game for a while. Typical response is to gang up on the offending agent until he leaves or acquieces to the prohibition.

The only thing I'm thinking is that if I'm in a Hunchback and your in an Atlas and I'm within spitting distance of you with my ac20 then I'm going for that leg to knock you down as fast as possible b/c if not your going to stuff atlas in my back. So, it's a valid tactic but should be sooo hard to do at anything other than fist fight distance that it will not get used b/c of lack of effect.

[Ironheart]

Well, then make mechs with tracks instead of legs. Problem solved. ^^

[Lorcan Lladd]

Well, as long as it is easy to achieve, and fun, too, people will resort to legging...
...Either in competitive or casual play.
So, my point is, legging should be made more difficult to achieve.

Now, I clearly remember legging not being such a grave issue in other online mecha games - namely, Starsiege - because, for one thing, the targeting systems, weapons and weapon lock times in those games made it quite a challenge to target any specific location - and though some very skilled gunners actually managed to pick away at weapon hardpoints, such feats required actual skill and did not constitute in a 'cheap kill' or underhanded tactic.
Unless you were standing really close to your target, but, well.

There, I believe that the weapons in MW:O should be made less accurate in general, and the targeting systems of 'Mechs, less responsive; either that, or the apparent or visual speed of 'Mech movement should be increased, thus preventing the overuse of legging.
This all purely from the standpoint of gameplay, because I don't know how accurate or fast those systems should be according to canon.

Oh, and then turn it around and give those Clan targeting computers an upgrade - want to bet the clanners will be legging all the time?

Of course, I'm also assuming that legging is a Terrible Thing and that we are discussing the means to stop players from legging - maybe I'm missing the point of the discussion entirely, so forgive me if that is the case.

Edit, on leg damage, I believe the legs typically receive less armor tonnage than other 'Mech structures, even though the actuators inside them can be destroyed easily by more powerful weapons, not to mention potential damage to myomers, so I would rather have the legs remain vulnerable, and significantly impaired by damage that is dealt to them, when armor is damaged or depleted...
...As per MechWarrior 3, which I played, or 2, which I didn't.

Edited by Lorcan Lladd, 02 February 2012 - 03:16 PM.

[TripleAwesome]

How MW:LL currently does it, before the Leg Internal Structure feature goes in:

-Legs start off with a larger allocation of armor tonnage in relation to CBT (90% of Center Torso armor values for all chassis). This makes them less of a juicy target compared to just coring your target, but other areas are less well-protected than they would be in CBT because the armor has to come from somewhere - it doesn't get magical free tons.
-Legs have a progressive damage model where once a leg becomes "damaged" (25% armor), the mech slows down to 1/3 top speed. If both legs are "damaged", speed is reduced to 1/10 max speed. If a leg becomes "critical" (10% armor), the 'mech slows 1/10, and if both legs are "critical", the 'mech is now a turret. If either leg is completely destroyed, the 'mech falls down.

[Hylius]

See, here's where I differ from most people. I don't mind legging that much. Yes, in some games (namely MW3) it was terribad, but honestly? It makes perfect tactical sense. Limit the target's mobility and shoot at the part that usually is least armored (from what I've seen, most people with armor customization options leave the legs fairly unguarded BECAUSE they don't mount weapons.)

I mean, in all honesty, how is legging different than shooting an arm? In one case I'm attempting to limit/destroy your mobility. In the other I'm trying to take out some of your weapons. Would you prefer running around with no weapons rather than limping around with your full arsenal?

That being said, whether or not I shoot a leg is dependent on the enemy I'm facing, just like anywhere else. If I know a guy has his lone big weapon mounted on his left arm, guess where I'm aiming? That's right, the left arm. Without his big punch, he's not as much of a threat even if he does get around me. If I manage to spot a scout who's not moving, thinking he's in cover, guess where I'm shooting? That's right, the legs, nullifying his usefulness to his team. Why would I take off his one SRM6 missile rack and leave him with the ability to get behind me and pump me full of holes? Let him keep his weapons, his light armor will result in a quick death if he can't dodge and flank.

[Rayge]

I actually prefer the MW4 'magic legs' scenario. It makes shooting the legs a viable tactic, but not an 'lol i win' scenario.

[Paul Inouye]

Ironheart, on 02 February 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

Well, then make mechs with tracks instead of legs. Problem solved. ^^

Please don't give FlyingDebris any ideas.. bad enough we're stuck with samurai armor and windmills now.

[Aegis Kleais]

Personally, I'm of the belief that "Your legs can be armored. Your legs provide movement. Your legs are a viable tactic which are targeted to demote your mobility"

They had this in WWII RTS games where you could "button" a tank's treads (focusing attack on it in order to break the tread and render the tank immobile). If I see weak or poorly-armored legs, you can pretty much guarantee I will attack them until you're crippled and then pick your Mech apart afterwards.

Legs can afford a LOT of armor, so in my mind, there's no excuse not to have those body boys armored up the wazoo.

TRUE STORY, but in TF2, other Snipers who would shoot someone in a body part OTHER than the head were yelled at and called "Bodyshooters". I about laughed when I first heard the term and what it meant. To think, people ACTUALLY believed that some form of war etiquette existed that required a sniper to only do damage to an enemy's head.

You DO damage where damage can be done WHEN you can do so. It's an act of opportunity, not honor.

Edited by Aegis Kleaisâ„¢, 02 February 2012 - 03:18 PM.

[Rayge]

Aegis Kleais™, on 02 February 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

Personally, I'm of the belief that "Your legs can be armored. Your legs provide movement. Your legs are a viable tactic which are targeted to demote your mobility"

I agree with this. If it is coded to be a viable tactic, then it is a viable tactic, 'fair' or not. I do however qualify it that in MW3, shooting the legs provide such a fast kill that it was unbalanced. As long as shooting legs doesn't kill a mech faster than 'coring' them or other alternatives, I think it is balanced correctly.

[Aegis Kleais]

Rayge, on 02 February 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

I agree with this. If it is coded to be a viable tactic, then it is a viable tactic, 'fair' or not. I do however qualify it that in MW3, shooting the legs provide such a fast kill that it was unbalanced. As long as shooting legs doesn't kill a mech faster than 'coring' them or other alternatives, I think it is balanced correctly.

Agreed. Legs should be able to hold such a decent amount of armor that it would be an effective pro/con for your to choose to focus on attacking an enemy's legs solely in the attempt to demote its mobility, but at the risk of knowing that you're not doing a thing to stop it from bringing its weapons to bear on you.

Personally, I think you'll find legging a much more popular thing as the weight class goes up. Odd as it sounds, cause heavier Mechs are already slower, I think that in order to fully limit their mobility to allow more escape (and the fact that the larger Mech's legs are proportionately larger and easier to hit), this will become common especially since a leg can easily be hit from the backside of a Mech, where it cannot bear its weapons.

[Opus]

Nothing thrills me more, than taking out the legs of a Mech, simple rules of Darwin apply, Survival of the Fittest.

And better salvage, DON'T LIE YOU AGREE!

I have been miffed by getting legged, but oh freaking well, its life.

In any case; its reality Get used to it, Because I will take your legs out as fast as I can in one on one....

Edited by Opus, 02 February 2012 - 03:45 PM.

[OnLashoc]

If it is a part of the mech, and it can cause you suffering and ultimately mech death, it is meant to be shot.

We are simulating warfare and the enemy is only bound by his / her own limitations within the game as far as honor. Not everyone plays by the honor code. Again as with Forced 1st Person, and weapons restrictions, I feel we shouldn't be limiting the entire community because Person A, B, C, D does or doesn't like something. Those things should be a server side setting, and the player should have the CHOICE to play in that server with those settings whether MWO:Mercs allows Private servers, or host dedicated servers. Each server should fit a particular style or taste and everyone should be able to CHOOSE which type of server they play in, in my opinion.

Back to Legging per se, maybe you could have some sort of Honor mod that would detect how someone killed someone and would have an honor rating system for those that bind themselves to a higher standard of mecha ethics.

Other than that, if I kill you by legging it is no difference than me killing you by head shot, or CT, or RT, or DFA in my opinion. Matter of fact if I choose to leg you, you at least still have your weapons and mech to inflict as much damage as you can on me before you die so it actually evens out.

Legging = Fair and a viable tactic.

[Blackfire1]

So post 34 about legging. :\ K.

It happens. Moving on.