58 replies to this topic

[ManDaisy]

The way the current skill are set up is horribly round about. I would prefer to have skills rather then being a blanket all before you can move on, to be narrow skills lines with skills requiring more experience dedication as you go deeper. This way we can special and dont have to wait thru the trouble of getting everything we dont care about until we can play the way we want.

Organization should be based on skill class. With detection based skills leading to detections modules, piloting based skills leading to physical stuff, etc etc. The master all the variants before you can move on also does not make sense. A catapult is a catapult. They should share experience. You dont suddenly forget how to ride a bicycle if you buy a new bike. If anything earning experience in 1 varient should contribute to passive experience to another of the same mech design but different variant.

Edited by ManDaisy, 03 February 2012 - 02:50 PM.

[Tsen Shang]

I think it's intended more as a learning curve effect than anything else. The bonuses are all fairly minor, but in the end they add up to be relatively substantial, and once we hit maximum level (I assume there's one) we can respecialize to whatever we want. It gives new players the option to learn while fighting people their own level without getting crushed by people with fully maxed trees, and once people get to the top it allows for customization, considering each of the 3 trees has its own block of bonuses.

[Mchawkeye]

Sorry ManDaisy, Could you clarify your position a bit?
I think it's reasonable and sensible that you have to do some work, building up the fundamentals before you get to the really juicy stuff.

[ManDaisy]

People specialize for roles. You dont have a doctor learn to be an engineer , carpenter, news anchor, and blacksmith before actually settling on being a doctor. Thats a horrible system of training which leads to everyone being the same with no specialization. And starting with teir one skills and then learning tier 2 skill is not jumping the fundamentals. tgier 1 IS the fundamentals for tier 2. Why should I learn all the teir 1 subjects just to got to the next tier 2 subject? Why do I need to learn intro to dance before I can move from geometry to calculus to statistics? Why the hell do I need art appreciation if I'm a chemical engineer.

Edited by ManDaisy, 03 February 2012 - 02:58 PM.

[Solis Obscuri]

ManDaisy, on 03 February 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

People specialize for roles. You dont have a doctor learn to be an engineer , carpenter, news anchor, and blacksmith before actually settling on being a doctor. Thats a horrible system of training which leads to everyone being the same with no specialization. And starting with teir one skills and then learning tier 2 skill is not jumping the fundamentals. tgier 1 IS the fundamentals for tier 2. Why should I learn all the teir 1 subjects just to got to the next tier 2 subject? Why do I need to learn intro to dance before I can move from geometry to calculus to statistics? Why the hell do I need art appreciation if I'm a chemical engineer.

So, sort of like how you'd start learning brain surgery right away, instead of having to deal with any biology, mircobiology, general math and science electives, etc?

I think the trees could use some work in terms of branches and alternate paths, but I also appreciate that these are an early working copy. I expect the finished versions will be better fleshed out. In the meantime, I am happy to have some idea of the sorts of capabilities being considered.

[Alaskan Viking]

Sounds like somebody didn't sign up for classes until the last minute, and for his GER's Humanities requirement got stuck in a Feminist "Intro to Womens' Studies" class with a teacher who hates men. So he has come to have an ingrained hatred of the education system's attempt at pumping out well rounded graduates, and has come on here to vent, only he doesn't realise it so he made a thread about the skill tree's oppression of his specialized skill set...

lol

[Fiachdubh]

Don't think it is grindy at all. In normal grindy MMOs you have to go out and do the same thing over and over again whether it is killing Ewoks or surveying for some metal it is incredibly repetitive and tedious and you only do it for the XP.

In MWO you would be spending all your time scouting, ambushing, shooting and DFAing anyway because that is the whole point of the game, they are just going to throw you some XP for being good at it as a reward and an extra feeling of progression. Many of us did the exact same thing during previous MW leagues but then we only had the warm glow of satisfaction you get from annihilating the Draconis scum other team as a reward. Also now the sour taste of defeat and disgust will at least be accompanied by some XP to soften the blow.

EDIT: Although I see how it could start feeling a bit grindy if people let themselves get drawn into doing certain things all the time in an attempt to gain another skill level. That would just be ruining the fun for themselves, would be best to keep amount of XP and progression towards next level and all that hidden in the background so players can forget about them and enjoy the game. Then when you do get another skill it will be like a nice surprise.

Edited by Fiachdubh, 03 February 2012 - 03:22 PM.

[That Guy]

if they game its self is fun to play, then its not really "grindy". if you play to have fun, then leveling its just the icing on the cake. if you play for leveling, then... well. have fun?

for example, WOT. that game really is not very fun. there is very little real player interaction, or immersion. i stopped playing when i realized that getting that T4 tank was going to be exactly the damn same: getting insta killed from some one out of visiual range as soon as the match starts. where as i am currently playing MW4 because its fun (though greatly flawed), even with out any "XP" reward.

edit: a better example: i have played battlefield heroes since its release. i keep playing because the core gameplay is solid and entertaining. when i level however, its like "sweet! i leveled!", not "gotta play 16 matches with an average of 2000pt a match for next level"

Edited by That Guy, 03 February 2012 - 03:37 PM.

[ManDaisy]

Well at leaset this is bringing up an important issue, if any aspect of the game makes it feel like work and not leisure then its a failed product.

Edited by ManDaisy, 03 February 2012 - 03:34 PM.

[Outlaw2]

Its called battlemech efficiencies, not battlemech specialization. It basically rewards you for playing a particular mech a lot. So yea, its a "grind" if you want to look at it that way. However, once you have unlocked all tiers and become fully "efficient" at one mech chasis, you are basically at the same playing level as anyone else in a match, even if they have played years more than you. The real grind comes in when trying to be fully efficient at all mechs. That could definately take a while.

To be honest though, I'd rather they WERE mech specialization points, and not simply efficiency points. I guess modules could play a small role in specializing the mech. Ohh yea...and lets not forget the mechlab's role in specializing a mech to your play style...still a mystery what we will get in the mechlab. There is more specialization by choosing how to go down the scout, atk/def, commander trees, but its not mech specific...or is it?

Edited by =Outlaw=, 03 February 2012 - 03:46 PM.

[TheRulesLawyer]

I sort of suspect the initial mech xp levels upto elite I will go fairly quickly. That's where I'd expect a grind to start.

[MaddMaxx]

With each Tier based all on the same effecincies, Heat Loss, Heat Max., Weapon Cool down, all have value to a Mech.

The Dev had a choice, go Horizontal and tiers or straight Vertical. What does it matter if the end result is the selection of 12 efficiencies on route to Elite 1and then beyond?

[MaddMaxx]

TheRulesLawyer, on 03 February 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

I sort of suspect the initial mech xp levels upto elite I will go fairly quickly. That's where I'd expect a grind to start.

The real Grind will be kicking the other Houses off the Map. Some will die easy, other will need to be ground down to eradicate. Somewhere in there the XP flow will cover the efficiency cost.

lol

Edited by MaddMaxx, 03 February 2012 - 03:49 PM.

[Solis Obscuri]

And seriously, what are we "grinding"? The game is PvP-based, with lots of instant action. You go fights some d00ds and you get XP, you get tech and piloting bonuses. If you get bored using the same 'mech, use a different one, and you can still keep advancing your piloting skills.

[Rabbit Blacksun]

Grinding people ...

Its a cook book! its a cook book!

IF you think about it ... people have been "specializing" in mechs since it became a game, every one has that one favorite that they love ... Omigir has the cougar that he loves and almost always plays, I have the Owens that I love to play along with the kit fox (uller) and we know their speed their armor, their weaknesses strengths and how to play them, the big difference i can see is that now we get bonuses for playing those mechs that we love playing and play all the time. I dont really see what the complaint is about, and you know its going to change anyway, since it changed during the course of BT/MW history anyway.

[Mechteric]

Unless we're expected to kill 1000 wild boars or retrieve 500 spider silks I think the very definition of a grind to earn these skills and components seems a completely incorrect analogy.

[Nick Makiaveli]

I'm with the majority here. Plus while you are working on the Variant #2, you are unlocking more Pilot Points so the only grindy part will be if you get stuck in a variant you hate using, ie one that handles differently etc.

[zverofaust]

This is more of the same kind of grind present in Battlefield 3, which is IMHO one of the most successful ways of implementing that game mechanic. While it takes awhile to unlock everything useful in BF3, the rewards are enormous -- there is so much potential variety in how you can play it's astounding and I think MWO will turn out very similar. Keep in mind, Pilot Skills are not the way players will specialize into roles-- it's all about what Modules you fit to your Mech, not the Skill perks your Pilot unlocks.

[Brakkyn]

Anything worth having is worth putting forth the effort to get.

[Draco Argentum]

TheRulesLawyer, on 03 February 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

I sort of suspect the initial mech xp levels upto elite I will go fairly quickly. That's where I'd expect a grind to start.

I'll take that as a given too. Its always like that because its the game's hook. For psychological reasons there have to be a bunch of rewards early.

The big problem with this is having to grind all varients before you can elite the varient you care about. Thats pretty silly.

The smaller problem is that this system has no choices about what you get, just when you get them. Obviously thats also done for the same psychological reasons. That said, systems like this always annoy me because theres a lot of effort put into making everyone get the same end result.