89 replies to this topic

[nubnub]

A lot of what has been posted sounds good in theory but will not work in practice.

Enforcing clan law will be difficult to implement in a game and would require a lot of coding. If laws are changeable then this complicates things ten fold.

How do you deal with people being in different time-zones? How could you do ToE/ToP etc. if your competition are always offline when you want to verse them?

How can new people get started into clan gaming when all of this is sooooo complicated? This will leave the clans with a serous dis-advantage compared to IS.

Some of the things proposed already conflict with MWO reported features ie. in MWO all mechs available to all.

Anyhow, what I think will happen at the time of invasion you can choose to join clan (this may be limited to X slots available per region) then the devs control everything clan. You can level up and all but essentially it will be just like being in a house.

[Jaroth Corbett]

nubnub, on 06 March 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

A lot of what has been posted sounds good in theory but will not work in practice.

We will see.

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Enforcing clan law will be difficult to implement in a game and would require a lot of coding. If laws are changeable then this complicates things ten fold.

I have played in LOTS of Clans in MW4 & it all comes down to the players.

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How do you deal with people being in different time-zones? How could you do ToE/ToP etc. if your competition are always offline when you want to verse them?

The same way we do in MWL. We schedule drops via batchall.

Clan ABC challenges Clan XYZ to a Trial of Possession for the Weapons Factory at coordinates 1234567 in region NOP of the Planet Whateverjustmakeupaname. Times are worked out as evenly as possible if both teams are in the same time zone or a compromise if they are far apart. It has been done since MW3. I see no reason why it could not be done here.

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How can new people get started into clan gaming when all of this is sooooo complicated? This will leave the clans with a serous dis-advantage compared to IS.

BY reading up on the Clans. Just as you get a manual for any game you buy, there are lots of places to learn about the Clans. Your only enemy here is laziness as the information can be obtained freely. Here is one such site:

http://ppc.warhawken...ises.com/1.html

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Some of the things proposed already conflict with MWO reported features ie. in MWO all mechs available to all.

That is for the IS. The Clans have always been different.

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Anyhow, what I think will happen at the time of invasion you can choose to join clan (this may be limited to X slots available per region) then the devs control everything clan. You can level up and all but essentially it will be just like being in a house.

We will see.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 06 March 2012 - 09:34 PM.

[nubnub]

• I have not played MWLL but in other games the clans were not structured in game, rather only really existed by word. That is why I don't think it can work this way for MWO since it will need to be more 'ordered' since there are houses, planets, systems, clans, ranks, groups all in persistence and all need to 'work' in a controlled mannor.

• Forcing people to 'read up' does not make sence to developers since they want to have the largest player base possible. Every one losses in that scenario

• MWO have not specified whether all mech applies to IS or which ever, so you are speculating

[Jaroth Corbett]

nubnub, on 06 March 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

• I have not played MWLL but in other games the clans were not structured in game, rather only really existed by word. That is why I don't think it can work this way for MWO since it will need to be more 'ordered' since there are houses, planets, systems, clans, ranks, groups all in persistence and all need to 'work' in a controlled mannor.

• Forcing people to 'read up' does not make sence to developers since they want to have the largest player base possible. Every one losses in that scenario

• MWO have not specified whether all mech applies to IS or which ever, so you are speculating

I did not type MWLL but MWL which is Mechwarrior Leagues. This is how things are done. No matter the format, we will be playing against other humans so some sort of arrangement has to be made for both teams to be online at the same time to fight.

How does everyone lose? Games come with manuals, you can choose to read & get information or not. It is up to you.

At the end of your last post you were speculating yourself. As neither of us are working at PGI all we CAN do is speculate. I fail to see your point.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 06 March 2012 - 09:50 PM.

[nubnub]

Jaroth Winson, on 06 March 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

I did not type MWLL but MWL which is Mechwarrior Leagues. This is how things are done. No matter the format, we will be playing against other humans so some sort of arrangement has to be made for both teams to be online at the same time to fight.

How does everyone lose? Games come with manuals, you can choose to read & get information or not. It is up to you.

At the end of your last post you were speculating yourself. As neither of us are working at PGI all we CAN do is speculate. I fail to see your point.

Wow, I now see why you have scared off other members from this discussion. You have a very closed mind.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Firstly this topic had a lot of views & replies before you showed up. I made it clear I was looking for suggestions/ideas/constructive criticism etc. Some members have came up with ideas of their own & I have adopted them. If you read the whole thread you would have seen that. Closed mind? I think not.

In the past I have had my view changed by researching what someone else said & finding out it was correct. I even changed my view because of reading I did on my own. In all these cases I have edited the posts I made to explain my error & apologize. I am not above correction as long as I can see proof. I have never claimed to be infallible or omniscient.

Second are you trying to say you know the minds of all the members of the forums & that my proposals have sent them scampering like frightened rabbits? You actually took the time to type that? OK buddy.

Thirdly, my mind is closed because I did not bow to your infinite wisdom & had thoughts of my own & I was able to refute your points? Look in a mirror pal.

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Anyhow, what I think will happen at the time of invasion you can choose to join clan (this may be limited to X slots available per region) then the devs control everything clan. You can level up and all but essentially it will be just like being in a house.

Guess what? That is speculation. You are doing it the same as me because neither of us are working with the devs. Do not throw a hissy fit because I called you out on it.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 07 March 2012 - 09:21 AM.

[Bonewalker]

*blows whistle and makes the Time Out gesture*

Okay, let's calm down a bit and remember, this WAS a first draft and the original poster was asking for constructive criticism. After reading the whole thread, I think we need to back off the discussion and take a deep breath, and think about alternatives that may work. Also there is that possibility that things will not work in the game. It all looks good on paper, but implementing things in a game can turn into one big snarl of gaming code and misunderstanding the logistics.

I am going to be a Clanswoman. I do want to see some of the Lore factor tossed in, but going full out on some these proposals would probably scare people off from hopping into a Clan Mech and wreaking havoc on the IS.

All I'm saying is just back up and take a pause for the cause, and think about things.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Understood, my lady.

[Outlaw2]

Bonewalker, on 09 March 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

*blows whistle and makes the Time Out gesture*

Okay, let's calm down a bit and remember, this WAS a first draft and the original poster was asking for constructive criticism. After reading the whole thread, I think we need to back off the discussion and take a deep breath, and think about alternatives that may work. Also there is that possibility that things will not work in the game. It all looks good on paper, but implementing things in a game can turn into one big snarl of gaming code and misunderstanding the logistics.

I am going to be a Clanswoman. I do want to see some of the Lore factor tossed in, but going full out on some these proposals would probably scare people off from hopping into a Clan Mech and wreaking havoc on the IS.

All I'm saying is just back up and take a pause for the cause, and think about things.

I think too often on this section of the forums, clan roleplay gets the better of people, and ideas focus around satisfying an RP itch without thinking through its full implications.

I posted the following in an other thread, but...K.I.S.S...Build upon the systems the game will already have, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel.Dress up the current community/faction system with clan terminology. Im sure some of theRP guys can come up with better terms.

Loyalty Points = Honor Points
Contract = Trial of [X]
Merc Corp = Touman Cluster or Galaxy (for Clan X)
Faction player = Clanner or Trueborn (for Clan X)
Lone Wolf = Freeborn

and so on....Don't turn it into rocket science. Its already going to be hard enough to implement the clans in-game without having to implement new complicated systems and rules for the community/faction system. Think about whats going to work first, and not simply what will tickle our RP fancies the best.

Once the basics are implemented and its working well, then we can think about trying to add the fancier stuff like zellbringen -IF- possible

Edited by =Outlaw=, 09 March 2012 - 02:41 PM.

[Bonewalker]

Thank you, Outlaw.

For the Record, I'm only a Lone Wolf until they put the Clan Icons up in the Factions Section.

[Gremlich Johns]

Bonewalker, on 09 March 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

Thank you, Outlaw.

For the Record, I'm only a Lone Wolf until they put the Clan Icons up in the Factions Section.

Seyla!

One thing that should be understood by some players not familiar with the long history of BT/CBT/MW is that MANY clan-oriented players have been playing Clansmen for a long time and know what the Clans and IS are about. It is not about gathering a group of players and calling themselves a "clan" (note the small "c"!) - that is NOT the same thing in the BT universe. It requires the RP aspect and even if the game does not EVER lend itself into a planetary league (it likely will not), there will still be players who run their groups as classic BT Clansmen - you do not have to like it and can go make your own faction that does not follow strict protocols. clan Bronies if you will, just use a small "c" please, that will make it an adjective instead of a noun.

Clan (n.) = BT/CBT/MW (and Scotland) A team of guys role-playing as Clansmen as found in the classic BT universe/milieu.

clan (adj.) = found in games like halo, BF3, modern warfare, etc.... JUST a team of guys

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 09 March 2012 - 04:11 PM.

[Harper Steel]

well said Gremlich well said..

[CCC Dober]

OP: As much as I like the idea of earning your stripes, your concept is vastly different from what the IS pilots will experience. They can play all kinds of Mech classes straight away. So we [clanners] play IS Mechs first up to level 26, then suddenly switch over to Clans and suddenly end up with light Mechs only. This is neither appealing nor fair by comparison. It also violates the game concept Role Warfare.

Not sure if this has been mentioned already by other posters, but it is really important to keep in mind what the devs have created so far. Tbh, I love freedom of choice and the way the devs enable everybody to take whatever class they like right from the start. It should be no different for the Clans than for the IS.

On a side note: I do remember very well that the Jade Falcon trilogy and related novels detailed ToPs to such an extent that choice of Mechs (aside from 4$$aults [is that word censored btw?]) was a given. I don't see why that should be glossed over, since this basically supports the devs current concept for the IS and may carry over as well to the Clans.

[Jack Gallows]

Bonewalker, on 09 March 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

Thank you, Outlaw.

For the Record, I'm only a Lone Wolf until they put the Clan Icons up in the Factions Section.

I think the only reason they're not adding them is to coincide with the time line, but I really don't think it'd honestly hurt anything if they did add the Clan faction symbols, it's all for good fun right?

And as for the rest, I'm all for the Clans to have their systems work differently and as close to the lore as they can make it, but like with the IS gameplay should trump that. They seem to be doing a good job of making things work as they are now, so I'm sure they'll handle the Clans quite well

Edited by Jack Gallows, 10 March 2012 - 08:37 AM.

[Dag]

The whole aspect looks great on paper, but you then need to figure that the dev's will have to code it. The more complex the system is, the more time it will need, which is a lot more money to expend. This is going to be a F2P game, and as such, is not going to have the budget of say a SWTOR or Rift.

If you want this game to succeed, the hardcore by the book players, will have to realize/accpet that the game is not pandering to them. The game is pandering to the group as a whole. I LOVED playing the tabletop version of Mechwarrior. I had tons of fun, but I didn't buy the books, memorize the history and lore.

I can easily see this being able to work on a RP type server, but on a general one, don't think so and in the long run, could hurt the game as the playerbase would be "I WANT to play a clan, but to do so is not fun.' and then go elsewhere to play and have fun.

[guardian wolf]

Okay, first off, good OP Jaroth, didn't have any problems, except for maybe that you have to wait till level 26, but I digress.
Second off, you can redress the IS to look like the basics of the Clans, and then all you have to do is go from there, they have a whole (what is it, six months?) to get it down, a lot of things can happen in six months.
Also, would be willing to have to fight a ToP in order to get in, one to weed out most of the "OOHHH SHINYS", and a policing system that rewards the honorable, and punishes the dezgra, we are Clansmen quiaff? Let us start acting like them. Also I agree with the no doing the ToP in Assaults, unless you automatically fight two at a time, then two more to gain ranks.


EDIT: And before anybody calls me a f****** elitist ***, the Clans were supposed to be the most unbalancing badass mother ******* in the game. The practically took the balancing rules and chucked 'em. I will serve with the Wolf's Dragoons till my time comes to join the ranks of Wolf, but do you honestly want a IS pilot taking down four Clan mechs, and not even break a sweat, I think not. I am all for them being open, but you gotta earn that spot.

Edited by guardian wolf, 10 March 2012 - 04:48 PM.

[Jack Gallows]

guardian wolf, on 10 March 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

EDIT: And before anybody calls me a f****** elitist ***, the Clans were supposed to be the most unbalancing badass mother ******* in the game. The practically took the balancing rules and chucked 'em. I will serve with the Wolf's Dragoons till my time comes to join the ranks of Wolf, but do you honestly want a IS pilot taking down four Clan mechs, and not even break a sweat, I think not. I am all for them being open, but you gotta earn that spot.

Yea. Because having to "earn" the right to play the Clans is a sound business strategy, especially in a F2P game.

There's got to be a line. It's not like we'll be taking down Clanners without breaking a sweat, but game balance (to a point) is still incredibly important, so is accessibility for all different types of gamers. Some people want hardcore Clan rules....but the MW:O audience who wants to play (including the Clans,) are going to be incredibly varied. Doesn't mean they have to dumb down everything Clan, but there's going to be some give and take for the sake of differing player types and ability.

You should be open to play any faction that you want without having to fight you way into that faction, because I'll be damned if I'm going to let some lore snob say I can't play something I want to play just because I can't either beat someone in 'mech combat (when it's a team based game,) or lock out friends for the same reason. I'm not going to be playing clans much/if at all, but seriously some people need to realize that this game isn't for just the hardcore. Compromise is important, you aren't a Clanner and neither is the person next to you. Important to feel like one, until it starts ruining the game for more then the small % of the hard line clans people.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Glad to see others have started to push back against the madness;
Outlaw, Gallows, Dag have all hit the nail on the head - I'd love to see someone write the Design Document for this Requirements Doc that has been posted. Also, gotta love the elitism, rampant among the munchkin faction no?

Only way this game is going to survive, is if we all pitch in, take a deep breath and help casual players understand. so many clan players on this board believe (rightly so) that the clans are 50% of the story (at this point, they are). If they are half the universe, why are so many so quick to lock out potential players? all of this chest-thumping, 'ToP' or GTFO is only going to make the new players and casual players befuddled or dejected. I've given my idea before, why not let the 'lone-wolf' Clan players have their fun; but only official Clan player groups affect the galaxy map? that way the Clan player groups can have their RP, their ToP, et al but still leave the door open for those interested.

Jack Gallows, on 10 March 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

You should be open to play any faction that you want without having to fight you way into that faction, because I'll be damned if I'm going to let some lore snob say I can't play something I want to play just because I can't either beat someone in 'mech combat (when it's a team based game,) or lock out friends for the same reason. I'm not going to be playing clans much/if at all, but seriously some people need to realize that this game isn't for just the hardcore. Compromise is important, you aren't a Clanner and neither is the person next to you. Important to feel like one, until it starts ruining the game for more then the small % of the hard line clans people.

this. 100x, till everyone understands.

you all need to understand the bigger picture, this isn't some massive RP-session where you get to see everything you want implemented to the letter.

[Dag]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 10 March 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

Only way this game is going to survive, is if we all pitch in, take a deep breath and help casual players understand. so many clan players on this board believe (rightly so) that the clans are 50% of the story (at this point, they are). If they are half the universe, why are so many so quick to lock out potential players? all of this chest-thumping, 'ToP' or GTFO is only going to make the new players and casual players befuddled or dejected. I've given my idea before, why not let the 'lone-wolf' Clan players have their fun; but only official Clan player groups affect the galaxy map? that way the Clan player groups can have their RP, their ToP, et al but still leave the door open for those interested.

PGI is out to make money. It is, after all, a business. They so happen to have found a niche within the gaming community that really has a pronounced demand, and as such, is going to allocate resources to exploit (as in make money off of) said segment in what they see as a fair and honest method (IE, if you think the game sucks, don't pay us, if you like it, you have the option of supporting us).

Now, one thing I think most kids today are not familiar with in terms of a business is Return on Investment (Usually called ROI). If you spend tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars on just upkeep/maintance of a game, you don't want to walk away with a lousy $50 in profit after taxes. You want to get the most you can so other people are willing to support you via money for future things. Any person with spare capitol to spend is going to be VERY leery of lending out money on a company that tends to have a low ROI compared to one that does.

I see this game as having completely stellar potential as far as an MMO, and to really and truly bring this potential to light, it NEEDS to be successful. In order to be successful it needs a good cadre of players, and not just "Rules Nazis" who demand the game be verbatum from the TT game. You can keep the essence and core of being a Clan without all the rules that bog it down and just make it so only the elitist get to play this unique and appealing (to some) side of the game.

I will agree, and I am NOT a hardcore by the book rule nazi, that a CRUCIAL element that the clan side needs to keep is that of Zellbrigen, but the depth and such needs to be worked out to make it enjoyable for all.

[SnowDragon]

If clans are going to be 'that' overpowered as they were in the canon (And as we've been 'promised') by the devs, then you know what the only requirement for being in a Clan will be?

How much moolah you put down.