156 replies to this topic

[JebusGeist]

Caballo, on 17 February 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

I can't see the purpose of the salvage if you earn money after the fight and can buy what you want in a market.

The only use i see is trying to accumulate more and more wealth for free, and if that's the player's objective, probably he will choose an Attacker/Defender role in every match (based on "i killed it, i get it" idea, but i may be wrong) so the scout and commander roles would get void fast.

In fact i find the market a better way to get toys. If you stick to your role and you stand on your feet after the battle, you earn more than if you didn't one of those two things. That will keep players thinking about the role they are playing, which is great. Plus there is no posibility of losing your mech, and become a dispossessed, so everyone keeps playing.

I actually agree about the "i kill it I get it" thing being a problem. If the mechanic were worked out that the final shot = the person that gets the salvage that would encourage people to spend a match trying to time last hits while their team did most of the work in damaging the enemy mech. There is no reason it has to work that way tho, I wouldn't mind if it worked a bit like WoW drops. Each salvageable part is put up for grabs, and distributed based on a random roll, perhaps it could include the Need It/Want It system as well, tho I don't really have any faith in that sort of honor system.
Discussing how the mechanic could/should work is why topics like this one are important.

[Namwons]

we do know that there will be planetry capture on a political star map. they said it will take one match, at first, to capture a planet. then it would be a series of matches (like a tug of war maybe). yes you could replenish at the market...BUT WHAT IF THE ATTACKERS CANT ACCESS THE MARKET. you know, cus there on enemy ground. they would have to replenish with salvage or spares they brought along. they never said they wont be any salvage, or you could access the market 100% of the time. this would make the tactic of attrition viable. the attackers would also want to capture that mech factory at nav beta instead of destroy it...or defenders could sabotage it after they couldnt hold the line.

Edited by Namwons, 17 February 2012 - 01:27 PM.

[JebusGeist]

Halfinax, on 17 February 2012 - 12:33 PM, said:

As you requested:

Truncated the quote cause otherwise this would be a massive post.


In regards to the lack of an announced player driven economy.
There has been no announcement stating that player to player trade will not exist, nor is there any reason to expect such a basic staple of multiplayer mmo's would be left out, and therefore its absolutely valid to discuss it in a forum topic which is intended to be a community discussion about how the mechanics of the game may or may not work.


As for weapons scarcity, you are right, that is definitely an assumption I am making based on BT universe cannon, its entirely possible that come the beta test that every weapon in the BT universe will be readily available on the NPC markets with just the price tag holding people back from owning the cream of the crop.

As for matching players of equal skill, that is also a great idea for balancing PvP, no arguments with it at all.

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and if you think about it, your comment about being ashamed of me falls right into that category.

Ad nauseum eh? You clicked on a topic that said "whats going to happen to salvage" even tho the discussions about salvage nauseate you. Would you crack open a bottle that says Syrup of Ipecac and take a hearty swig?

A few "minor" rpg elements does not make this an RPG? Someone ought to tell the gaming community that, because they've been calling things stuff like RTS/RPG and FPS/RPG for years now that apparently shouldn't have the RPG moniker attached to them. An FPS with RPG elements is still an RPG, its just not a PURE RPG. A MP Mech Simulator with RPG elements is no exception.

Yes, you did name drop me for being an elitist, and in so doing lumped me in with every person that flys into histrionics at the mere suggestion of not being able to salvage your entire mech and turn you into one of the dispossessed. You chose to name drop me, which means you obviously felt that somehow your comments were more applicable to me than to a dozen or so other people you didn't bother to mention. I could care less if I was just conveniently one of the most recent posts you didn't agree with, don't mention me in your generalizations and I'll have no reason to fault you. If I were en elitist, I'd be one of the people that threw a fit when no mech loss was announced and said they arn't going to play the game because of it.
I'm an elitist cause I expect a BT inspired video game to actually reflect BT? I should expect it to reflect the Macross universe instead?

Here's a good question. Should I call you a populist and accuse you of being the type of person that wants the game to somehow achieve that magical and ultimately impossible goal of appealing to 99% of the gaming market even tho nothing you've said actually suggests that? Oops, theres that whole eye for an eye thing again.

[MaddMaxx]

Quote

"nor is there any reason to expect such a basic staple of multiplayer mmo's would be left out,"

All well and good if MWO were to be an MMO. It is not. The Dev have made that quite clear.

Carry on.

[Kharahs]

nubnub, on 15 February 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

This seems like the biggest 'issue' in the game IMHO. I think if the mech is all shot up then there wont be much to salvage but if you blow the cockpit then heaps of weapons and tech are up for the taking. I think you should be able to totally loose your mech, especially if the mech is lost of foreign turf or the planet is totally overrun during the battle.

Also the issue of persistence of the physical wreck in the game, discussed elsewhere.

so you would still totally believe you should lose you mech if it happened to you and it happned to be your first mech and no ability to buy another...because that would rock huh.

[JebusGeist]

MaddMaxx, on 17 February 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

All well and good if MWO were to be an MMO. It is not. The Dev have made that quite clear.

Carry on.

Ok, lets run through the checklist here.

Is it massive? Seems like the devs are shooting for cooperative and competitive play and hopefully a large community, also seems to be talk of them actually having the various houses and merc companies. So, CHECK
Is it multiplayer? yes it is, CHECK
Is it online? No ****, CHECK.


Does the planned game meet the basic definition of an MMO, yes, yes it does. Carrying on.

[Felix Dante]

Again, I'm pretty sure they mentioned you can buy additional mechs with C-Bills...

So my guess is everything will revolve around the almighty C-Bill!

Long live the C-Bill!

[MaddMaxx]

JebusGeist, on 17 February 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

Ok, lets run through the checklist here.

Is it massive? Seems like the devs are shooting for cooperative and competitive play and hopefully a large community, also seems to be talk of them actually having the various houses and merc companies. So, CHECK
Is it multiplayer? yes it is, CHECK
Is it online? No ****, CHECK.


Does the planned game meet the basic definition of an MMO, yes, yes it does. Carrying on.

So that defines a modern MMO for you. Cool. Please be careful in town as you drive your Mech around during your off mission time. The buildings are a tad soft and the pedestrians a tad squishy.

Oh, and you won't be getting out of your Mech to shop btw. Carry on.

[verybad]

JebusGeist, on 17 February 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

Ok, lets run through the checklist here.

Is it massive? Seems like the devs are shooting for cooperative and competitive play and hopefully a large community, also seems to be talk of them actually having the various houses and merc companies. So, CHECK
Is it multiplayer? yes it is, CHECK
Is it online? No ****, CHECK.


Does the planned game meet the basic definition of an MMO, yes, yes it does. Carrying on.

Quote

Is this game going to have lots of servers like a WoW or are you hoping for a single persistent server world like EVE Online?


[MATT C] Each game spawns its own dedicated server, these are not persistent like WoW, as mentioned that would take us into MMO territory. There is persistent game world information, i.e. match results are communicated to affect the balance of power in the Inner Sphere, who owns what planet etc. but there is no true persistent world, more of a persistent meta-game.

It's not an MMO. It's multiplayer, and it's online, but the biggest game wil be 12vs12, and servers don't stay up after games. Player actions will affect the map, but that's not the definition of an MMO, and the Developers have stated multiple times, that it's not an MMO.

You can also get stuff in TeamFortress 2 that can be used over multiple games, it's F2P, and it's multiplayer, and it's online. That doesn't make it an MMO.

Think of the map as a graphics based scorecard. An MMO means you can interact with a lot more people n a server than 24 (max). Don't confuse something you may WANT the game to be for what the Developers have said the game WILL be.

The odds of a laser being blown off of a still living mech (for example) and still being functional are low, salvage usually is based on a mech being killed, and the salvagers picking up the leftovers. As the players mech can not be destroyed (longterm, not during a game), then where does the salvage come from?

A bonus for the winning teammembers makes the most sense. I could see salvage bonuses for winning certain locations in some missions (eg raiding a mech factory), but all in al cash makes for a more balanceable game.

[JebusGeist]

MaddMaxx, on 17 February 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

So that defines a modern MMO for you. Cool. Please be careful in town as you drive your Mech around during your off mission time. The buildings are a tad soft and the pedestrians a tad squishy.

Oh, and you won't be getting out of your Mech to shop btw. Carry on.

You appear to be under the impression that [1] A persistent world is an absolute prerequisite for being an MMO (Even if it was, the inner sphere and the periphery, the various houses, the merc companies), and [2] that a "persistent world" literally refers to an actual planet with pedestrians, malls, and the ability to hop out of my mech and have brunch with some members of the Kell Hounds. Patently ridiculous. Don't carry on.

[verybad]

So the Developers say it's not an MMO, but you do. Guess they're wrong.

[JebusGeist]

verybad, on 17 February 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

It's not an MMO. It's multiplayer, and it's online, but the biggest game wil be 12vs12, and servers don't stay up after games. Player actions will affect the map, but that's not the definition of an MMO, and the Developers have stated multiple times, that it's not an MMO.

You can also get stuff in TeamFortress 2 that can be used over multiple games, it's F2P, and it's multiplayer, and it's online. That doesn't make it an MMO.

Think of the map as a graphics based scorecard. An MMO means you can interact with a lot more people n a server than 24 (max). Don't confuse something you may WANT the game to be for what the Developers have said the game WILL be.

The odds of a laser being blown off of a still living mech (for example) and still being functional are low, salvage usually is based on a mech being killed, and the salvagers picking up the leftovers. As the players mech can not be destroyed (longterm, not during a game), then where does the salvage come from?

A bonus for the winning teammembers makes the most sense. I could see salvage bonuses for winning certain locations in some missions (eg raiding a mech factory), but all in al cash makes for a more balanceable game.

verybad, on 17 February 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

It's not an MMO. It's multiplayer, and it's online, but the biggest game wil be 12vs12, and servers don't stay up after games. Player actions will affect the map, but that's not the definition of an MMO, and the Developers have stated multiple times, that it's not an MMO.

You can also get stuff in TeamFortress 2 that can be used over multiple games, it's F2P, and it's multiplayer, and it's online. That doesn't make it an MMO.

Think of the map as a graphics based scorecard. An MMO means you can interact with a lot more people n a server than 24 (max). Don't confuse something you may WANT the game to be for what the Developers have said the game WILL be.

The odds of a laser being blown off of a still living mech (for example) and still being functional are low, salvage usually is based on a mech being killed, and the salvagers picking up the leftovers. As the players mech can not be destroyed (longterm, not during a game), then where does the salvage come from?

A bonus for the winning teammembers makes the most sense. I could see salvage bonuses for winning certain locations in some missions (eg raiding a mech factory), but all in al cash makes for a more balanceable game.

Would you care to provide the absolute inarguable definition of what an MMO is? What they have described is considerably different than TF2, to the point where the only reason I could see you making the comparison is because if you were to compare the game as planned to anything even remotely similar to it (including faction control and an overall persistent map) you would be comparing it to a game that is considered to be an MMO. Just because I cant have a 10000vs10000 PvP match and run around the streets of some city with 10000 other players doesnt mean its not an MMO, A lot of browser based "MMO"s do not have player interaction that goes beyond a messaging system and the PvP arenas which don't even allow team sizes anywhere near as large as 12v12 , and yet, still classified as MMOs. I'm glad the devs are saying "its not an MMO" as it still meets the basic criteria for being called one (yes, a system of territorial control does classify it as such, I like how you tried to brush that off). I suspect what they are trying to say is, its not WoW.

[verybad]

Is World of Tanks an MMO? Some people say it is, some people don't.

I personally don't think a persistent map makes it an MMO, you do. So lets agree to disagree. No need for you to take offense to disagreements, it's the internet.

I didn't try to "shrug it off" I simply don't think it's a minimal criteria. You can have a persistent map in a multiplayer Civilization game...

All it is is tracking wins and losses, that's a scoreboard IMO.

Edited by verybad, 17 February 2012 - 03:46 PM.

[MaddMaxx]

JebusGeist, on 17 February 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

You appear to be under the impression that [1] A persistent world is an absolute prerequisite for being an MMO (Even if it was, the inner sphere and the periphery, the various houses, the merc companies), and [2] that a "persistent world" literally refers to an actual planet with pedestrians, malls, and the ability to hop out of my mech and have brunch with some members of the Kell Hounds. Patently ridiculous. Don't carry on.

If I cannot take my avatar and walk about town, buy things in shops and speak with other player avatars, in real time, while together in the same tavern, then no it is not an MMO.

Going directly from instance to Instance via a Lobby (be it a Merc Group Lobby) leaves a lot to be desired if I sign on for an MMO. Perhaps in the future the features required will be added but out of the gate, MWO will NOT be a MMO.

Dungeons and Dragons Online or World of Warcraft (and their ilk) to be MMO's

Your up.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 17 February 2012 - 03:46 PM.

[JebusGeist]

verybad, on 17 February 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

So the Developers say it's not an MMO, but you do. Guess they're wrong.

If i were a patient man, I'd say, see you when the game is online and listed on mmorpg mmosite and 1000 other MMO websites, I'm not tho, so you know, your right, if we called roses **** bricks they would surely smell of feces, this isn't an MMO.

[El Loco]

Usually, I wouldn't refer to wikipedia, but it being an encyclopedia and me not being a game terminology guru I will make an exception this once:

(from wikipedia)
"A massively multiplayer online game (also called MMO and MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting hundreds or thousands of players simultaneously. By necessity, they are played on the Internet, and usually feature at least one persistent world."

So... MWO is not and by no means a MMO... it's more like LoL in this regards. And LoL is not a MMO... never has been, never will be.

Auntie Edith wants me to add the following: Why is it not a MMO? Because the battlefields are not persistent... the universe is, but not the level at which players directly interact.

Edited by El Loco, 17 February 2012 - 03:53 PM.

[JebusGeist]

MaddMaxx, on 17 February 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

If I cannot take my avatar and walk about town, buy things in shops and speak with other player avatars, in real time, while together in the same tavern, then no it is not an MMO.

Going directly from instance to Instance via a Lobby (be it a Merc Group Lobby) leaves a lot to be desired if I sign on for an MMO. Perhaps in the future the features required will be added but out of the gate, MWO will NOT be a MMO.

Dungeons and Dragons Online or World of Warcraft (and their ilk) to be MMO's

Your up.

DragonFable, browser based MMO, right out of the gate you couldnt interact with anyone else, the PvP system wasnt actually PvP but Player Vs Character as you couldn't actually directly battle one another. So basically, almost null interaction between players, and yet, classified as an MMO.
We could literally sit here and argue about what constitutes an MMO and whether on not the devs saying "this isnt an MMO" means its not an MMO (even if it might meet the same criteria as other games called MMOs). You could give example after example of games with aspects this one doesn't have, and I could give you example after example of games that likewise don't have those aspects and are still referred to as an MMO. Like I said, I'm glad the devs say its not an MMO, that means its not an MMO, just like if they said its not a game that would mean its not a game.

[JebusGeist]

El Loco, on 17 February 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

Usually, I wouldn't refer to wikipedia, but it being an encyclopedia and me not being a game terminology guru I will make an exception this once:

(from wikipedia)
"A massively multiplayer online game (also called MMO and MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting hundreds or thousands of players simultaneously. By necessity, they are played on the Internet, and usually feature at least one persistent world."

So... MWO is not and by no means a MMO... it's more like LoL in this regards. And LoL is not a MMO... never has been, never will be.

Auntie Edith wants me to add the following: Why is it not a MMO? Because the battlefields are not persistent... the universe is, but not the level at which players directly interact.

Reread your wiki quote (lol). Theres a key word there you overlooked, "Usually."

Also, see Dragon Fable, or the original Adventure Quest MMO (not to be confused with Adventure Quest Worlds).

Uncle Bucky says: Why is it an MMO, Because the universe is persistant, and the battlefields, which could be referred to as instances, affect the persistent universe, avatar to avatar interactions in a tavern don't matter one bit.

Edited by JebusGeist, 17 February 2012 - 04:05 PM.

[Namwons]

DERAIL THREAD STOP

[JebusGeist]

Namwons, on 17 February 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

DERAIL THREAD STOP

Damn, your right, agreed. I promise, I won't respond to another comment that isn't talking about salvage mechanics.