156 replies to this topic

[Outlaw2]

MWO is not an MMO. An online map with a bunch of circles that change colors depending on the outcome of 12v12 matches is not a exactly the stuff MMOs are made of.

Feel free to call it an MMO, its not though.

[Halfinax]

I think that salvage should just be abstracted into C-bills. It is the cleanest and simplest method. The devs haven't even hinted at a player driven economy with that glaring absence of proof I just don't think it is something we will see.

[Outlaw2]

Salvage could act as a random item reward at the end of matches... similar to Global Agenda. Items rewarded can be loosely based on what you and your opponents took to the match, and which mechs were destroyed. If a lot mechs with med lasers were destroyed, chances of you getting a med laser as an item reward could be higher than normal. Or instead of a med laser, it gives you a "damaged med laser", which you can pay money to repair into a fully functioning med laser, but for less money than buying a brand new med laser (effectively acting as a discount for a med-laser).

[JebusGeist]

Halfinax, on 17 February 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

I think that salvage should just be abstracted into C-bills. It is the cleanest and simplest method. The devs haven't even hinted at a player driven economy with that glaring absence of proof I just don't think it is something we will see.

Okay, so its abstracted into c-bills. The question then is, if I "salvage" someones equipment (immediately converted into c-bills) does the person I salvaged if off of still have the opportunity to repair it even tho technically it should be gone, or will it just be lost to them and in need of a full price replacement? If it does mean they lose it, exactly what harm is there in me gaining it and having the choice to either repair it for my own use or scrap it for c-bills?

[El Loco]

The harm lies in the fact, that you basically could salvage your opponents 'Mech, but the devs have already said that a player can't lose its 'Mech permanently. This would lead to an inflation in 'Mechs or C-bills (and further down the road in both). If we have rather easy access to all the equipment rpvided by the devs, why would we want to spend money on the game? And that's where the harm of salvage comes in. As much as I would love to have salvage implemented, its detrimental effects to the game outweigh its benefitial effects by far.

Therefore, we will only get a bonus on our pay check for outperforming our opponents, which will be smaller than the actual prize of the equipment on the market. I didn't like the idea at first, but I came to see it as the only balanced solution to the salvage issue.

[Halfinax]

Abstracting from what the devs said, and under the assumption that the system I've suggested is what they are thinking (this is pure speculation). I'd say they simply lost it and will have to purchase a new one, and your team would each get a share of the salvage value in this way the economy doesn't become overburdened or over inflated (again assuming a pure store system).

If players actual get equipment then there becomes a surplus of equipment, and the devs store becomes nearly useless especially if there is a player driven economy. Mind you with the F2P model the devs need ever cent. So say your 'Mech got smashed to bits in the last match, and you need 3 MLasers, and a PPC. You could buy from a player at say 200,000 C-bills everything you need so there is no use to go to the devs store where that same equipment would run you 320,00 C-bills. Which would you take?

Now to further abstract that. You as a player only have 210,000 C-bills to begin with: then your only option is to buy from the player and get a full rearm. If the system is purely store based then you would either have to go without the PPC, or at least 2 of the MLasers, or you would spend a 2 real dollars to purchase the items you need and fully reequip your 'Mech. Which sounds like the better decision for the Devs?

I'm not suggesting they should try and make you buy stuff, but that would definitely be a convenience purchase for the player, and if there is a player driven economy then that option pretty much falls away for the devs. Sure you could just do without, but 2 bux to rearm for the next match could be pretty tempting, and allow you to bank those C-bills for that shiny new Atlas you've been drooling over.

[JebusGeist]

El Loco, on 17 February 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

The harm lies in the fact, that you basically could salvage your opponents 'Mech, but the devs have already said that a player can't lose its 'Mech permanently. This would lead to an inflation in 'Mechs or C-bills (and further down the road in both). If we have rather easy access to all the equipment rpvided by the devs, why would we want to spend money on the game? And that's where the harm of salvage comes in. As much as I would love to have salvage implemented, its detrimental effects to the game outweigh its benefitial effects by far.

Therefore, we will only get a bonus on our pay check for outperforming our opponents, which will be smaller than the actual prize of the equipment on the market. I didn't like the idea at first, but I came to see it as the only balanced solution to the salvage issue.

Mechs can't be salvaged, this has been established. I'm talking about WEAPONS, not entire Mechs.

If we can't salvage weapons, I hope that means that weapons, like mechs, cannot be completely destroyed. One of the most important aspects of salvage is replacing any weaponry you lost in battle by using salvaged enemy equipment. If you can't do that and equipment can still get totaled then you better either win more often than you lose, or act like a coward on the battle field and run away any time one of your body parts with weapon hard points is in the red and hope your team will be able to clean up without you. Otherwise you'll find yourself in a situation where you can't afford to outfit your mech with anything but a few machine guns.

As for why would we spend money? Games with cash shops etc basically rely on the person who would rather shell out $$ than try their hand at farming in-game currency. It will really come down to how they implement the cash shop, which will either be basically pay to win (better weapons, mechs, modules, etc), pay for temporary increases in experience and c-bill gains, or pay for bling (custom camo designs, model variations, etc). Maybe even a combination of 2 or even all 3 options. Also, they haven't said that you can have unlimited mechs in your hanger and I suspect that beyond a couple default slots you'll have to pay for more room.

I don't see salvage as much of a discouragement against spending real cash on the game, it just requires sensible pricing. Like if I could buy a Clan PPC in a cash shop for $3 USD I would have to lose 5 of them to salvage in a single month before it would cost me more than most monthly fees for games. If the price of items in the cash shop is fair and the chance to salvage is set low enough, it really shouldn't be a deterrent at all. I said earlier I figure the chance to salvage a weapon should be at maximum 10%, and thats only if the body part with the hard point that weapon is mounted to was completely undamaged, blow off your enemies arms and your chance to salvage anything attached to them is 0.

Edited by JebusGeist, 17 February 2012 - 05:32 PM.

[JebusGeist]

Halfinax, on 17 February 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

Abstracting from what the devs said, and under the assumption that the system I've suggested is what they are thinking (this is pure speculation). I'd say they simply lost it and will have to purchase a new one, and your team would each get a share of the salvage value in this way the economy doesn't become overburdened or over inflated (again assuming a pure store system).

If players actual get equipment then there becomes a surplus of equipment, and the devs store becomes nearly useless especially if there is a player driven economy. Mind you with the F2P model the devs need ever cent. So say your 'Mech got smashed to bits in the last match, and you need 3 MLasers, and a PPC. You could buy from a player at say 200,000 C-bills everything you need so there is no use to go to the devs store where that same equipment would run you 320,00 C-bills. Which would you take?

Now to further abstract that. You as a player only have 210,000 C-bills to begin with: then your only option is to buy from the player and get a full rearm. If the system is purely store based then you would either have to go without the PPC, or at least 2 of the MLasers, or you would spend a 2 real dollars to purchase the items you need and fully reequip your 'Mech. Which sounds like the better decision for the Devs?

I'm not suggesting they should try and make you buy stuff, but that would definitely be a convenience purchase for the player, and if there is a player driven economy then that option pretty much falls away for the devs. Sure you could just do without, but 2 bux to rearm for the next match could be pretty tempting, and allow you to bank those C-bills for that shiny new Atlas you've been drooling over.

check my reply to el loco, better than repeating myself

[El Loco]

The devs already said there will be a performance dependent bonus system. Why should they engage in the development of a balanced algorithm for calculating the probability of equipment being salvageable? It just doesn't make sense to me. Losing weapons permanently... well... I think we won't. Maybe we'll have to buy the weapons and gear (I'm assuming here you were referring to gear as salvageable goodies as well) only once per 'Mech. I have no idea about the modalities the devs have in mind. I'm sure they'll do their best to keep the game balanced... and for me, salvage doesn't fit the bill.

[Morashtak]

Salvage = C-Bills when you boil it down to it's finest essence. Whether you use salvage to replace a weapon or c-bills to buy a replacement it all comes down to what is the easiest route for the devs to take in order to get a MVP in place by their target launch date. As of right now it's c-bills ftw.

While I would like to see salvage added later the algorithms will take a while as random looting of your Mech ain't going to work. Example; Mech never takes any right side damage but the RNG says a weapon from that side is "salvage". Uhmm... how about... no.

As stated, this game needs to be accessible and fun. To the casual player deleting and starting a new account every time they get dispossessed is going to ruin the fun part. May raise some of our adrenalin levels but not everyone is going to "feel the rush".

If this game takes off and the dev team is handsomely rewarded for their efforts maybe we'll see some "hardcore" elements later. Just not at launch. Ain't willing to wait until the dev team makes it everyone's perfect game (which upon that day's arrival we all simultaneously win the Lotto/lottery ).

[Alaric Wolf Kerensky]

Honestly, FAR too many people are getting themselves way too wrapped up in this idea of salvage. Are you really sure you want to lose millions of C-bills when your favorite 'Mech gets smashed to oblivion every other match, and as a result you lose your 'Mech? People are going to be ******** CONSTANTLY about losing their 'Mechs. And I guarantee the majority will be the guys currently drooling over salvage. While I will not claim to not like the idea of taking isorla, I believe I am a pretty good pilot and would be able to claim a lot. However, I do not want any kind of system like that, where I know I would feel bad taking from players who are either not as skilled, unlucky, or just plain NEW. Make people pay repair fees, but do not take from them, or you lose your playerbase faster than World of Tanks.

[Nick Makiaveli]

JebusGeist, on 17 February 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

99%

OMG!!! He said 99%!!!! He's going political on us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Halfinax, on 17 February 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

I think that salvage should just be abstracted into C-bills. It is the cleanest and simplest method. The devs haven't even hinted at a player driven economy with that glaring absence of proof I just don't think it is something we will see.

I think this is likely to be the way it goes. They haven't so much as hinted at it. I think it is therefore something they would like to have, may actually be able to bring to the table down the road etc. There is actually no reason that in a few years MW:0 2 can't come out and have all this.

Edited by Nick Makiaveli, 17 February 2012 - 09:41 PM.

[slide]

The devs have said that all equipment will be available to all players (Whatever faction) with maybe a difference in price, depending on your aleigance. I'll agree that salvage of a specific item (mech/weapons) could be explained away as c-bills (still don't like the idea though) as you can replace anything if you have the money. Presumably at lauch all these items will be IS 3049 equivalents.

If you have no salvage, then when the clans arrive it will either be impossible to get clan tech, or the devs will have to make it freely available to everyone with the cash. If they do the later the shiny new Atlas that you've spent 6 month leveling up into the ultimate fighting machine will become precisely worthless as everybody rushes to get their favourite clan mech. And the whole dynamic of the game will change overnight.

Whether your a hard core fan or not it will take massive rewrite of game history to explain why the clans are selling all their tech at the same time they are invading.

Put it this way - "no slavage (in someform) = no clan tech for IS players" IMO

[Xanquil]

I do beleve there is going to be some form of Item aquirement salvage system, but that item wil not be something taken from another player.
This seems to be where most of the miscommunication stems from in this therad.

Just because we won't be losing our mechs when we get defeated dosn't mean that there won't be salvage. It just means that what salvage you do get is not taken form another player. That way people will continue to be able to play, (with there favorite mechs)and not just quit because thay can no longer use the mech do to lack of equipment.

"Salvage" if there is going to be any will likely take the form of bonus items after the battle. That way the tech will get out, and be a nice little bonus on top of the contract reward.

Harsh death penilitys are bad for business in a ftp game.

[Nick Makiaveli]

slide, on 17 February 2012 - 11:51 PM, said:

The devs have said that all equipment will be available to all players (Whatever faction) with maybe a difference in price, depending on your aleigance. I'll agree that salvage of a specific item (mech/weapons) could be explained away as c-bills (still don't like the idea though) as you can replace anything if you have the money. Presumably at lauch all these items will be IS 3049 equivalents.

If you have no salvage, then when the clans arrive it will either be impossible to get clan tech, or the devs will have to make it freely available to everyone with the cash. If they do the later the shiny new Atlas that you've spent 6 month leveling up into the ultimate fighting machine will become precisely worthless as everybody rushes to get their favourite clan mech. And the whole dynamic of the game will change overnight.

Whether your a hard core fan or not it will take massive rewrite of game history to explain why the clans are selling all their tech at the same time they are invading.

Put it this way - "no slavage (in someform) = no clan tech for IS players" IMO

Doesn't have to be a All or Nothing scenario.

First, Clan tech wouldn't be widely available for awhile as just about every single piece would wind up in the hands of the Houses (either bought or stolen).

Second when there is enough to start getting spread around, all they have to do is put a limited number of pieces on the merchants. They didn't exactly say we would all have equal access etc. Just that there wouldn't be faction locked equipment.

Third, we still don't know if there will be any kind of inventory/player market at all. So unless and until this is confirmed, whether at or post launch, random salvage etc is still just a dream. One that I share, mind you.

[slide]

From Q&A 2 (page 1)

Do factions have access to unique mechs or weapons? -cobrafive

[BRYAN] No. Prices may vary, but everyone has equal access to items

Seems like an in game store to me. And every one has equal access. My above point stands.
Which also begs the question if you want to play the clans do they have their own separate store? (another thread probably)

[Whackjob]

My humble suggestions:

First, two tiers of players. Casual and Roleplayer. Casuals cannot lose their mechs in a fight, but can't get access to the top level primo gear and get slightly reduced rewards. Roleplayers put everything on the line. If your Mech's fusion core lights up, you're taking home scraps. If the victors let you, that is. On the plus side, you get better rewards, get to use some of the tastier gear out there. Dispossesion is absolutely possible. To counter the I-lost-everything-and-can't-play-anymore concern, let role-play pilots who are dispossessed pick up a new low-tech stock mech from the mech plants on their clan's home world. You won't get something amazing, but you'll you'll still have something to plug your neurohelmet in to.

(Probably not suggesting anything new, but felt like typing it up anyway)

[Nick Makiaveli]

Whackjob, on 18 February 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:

My humble suggestions:

First, two tiers of players. Casual and Roleplayer. Casuals cannot lose their mechs in a fight, but can't get access to the top level primo gear and get slightly reduced rewards. Roleplayers put everything on the line. If your Mech's fusion core lights up, you're taking home scraps. If the victors let you, that is. On the plus side, you get better rewards, get to use some of the tastier gear out there. Dispossesion is absolutely possible. To counter the I-lost-everything-and-can't-play-anymore concern, let role-play pilots who are dispossessed pick up a new low-tech stock mech from the mech plants on their clan's home world. You won't get something amazing, but you'll you'll still have something to plug your neurohelmet in to.

(Probably not suggesting anything new, but felt like typing it up anyway)

Would almost have to be separate "servers". I mean as a RPer would you really want to go up against me knowing I would be more than happy to risk a suicidal run against you because worst case I go home and pay for some repairs? Whereas if my gamble pays off you might wind up with no mech at all?

[Whackjob]

Nick Makiaveli, on 18 February 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

Would almost have to be separate "servers". I mean as a RPer would you really want to go up against me knowing I would be more than happy to risk a suicidal run against you because worst case I go home and pay for some repairs? Whereas if my gamble pays off you might wind up with no mech at all?

Hrm. A salient point. I'll mull this over. There should be a way both types could play on the same box and have it be fair-ish.

Ok, feel free to ignore this part while I think aloud to get my grey-matter in order. First, if a casual kills and RP, and the mech is totally destroyed, the RP should still lose his mech. That's what RP is about. However, as you'd noted, the casuals would be more willing to stick their necks out in attacks an RP would not due to fear of dispossession. Now, the casual can't take the mech like an RP could, but I imagine there would still be some players who go casual for the sole purpose of making RPs lose mechs. (MMO rule one: Always assume players will take advantage of everything in the worst possible way)

Ok. After mulling this over, I think the better-tech the RPs can use should be sufficient to counter-balance the casuals and their suicide rushes. Values and what have you would have to be tweaked by the devs of course, but I think the tradeoff in this matter is approximating fair. I'm sure there were no end of suicidally stupid F rated merc companies with no tactical sense and desperate enough to throw away what they had to get something else. The casuals playing stupidly in the manner described would resemble this.

Anyone else have an idea of a better way to balance this, perhaps? The brain storm is already thunderin'.

Edited by Whackjob, 18 February 2012 - 05:18 PM.

[EDMW CSN]

Devs already said no mech loss, but they haven't said anything about weapon loss which is probably the only thing that is salvageable.

A weapon shot off with it's actuator probably should have a chance of being salvage (barring ammo explosions though) Let the RNG decide after the end of every match. The winner still have to pay to repair the salvaged weapon to a operational status. Maybe like 80% of the price of the original intact ones from NPC.

This will also fuel a Black Market economy where salvagers will try to off load stuff cheaper than NPC Vendors. Thus giving even newer and hard up players a chance to get back their footing. In fact this is the only conceivable way I can think of to get legit Clan Tech weapons without resorting to being a wallet warrior.... But Clan tech or SL tech will be priced extremely costly by those Salvagers of course.