136 replies to this topic

[Vexgrave Lars]

[EDMW]CSN, on 17 February 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

The only issue that some of these "same old mechs" never appeared anywhere in many MW games. Or appeared once and disappeared forever. When was the last time someone rode a Champion, a Cataphract, Caesar, Grasshopper or the Guillotine ?

They certainly don't look ugly (well the Champion is a little wonky looking) and don't suffer the same unseen drama. Why not give them a shot ? These are all 3025 to 3050 era heavies fyi all ~

Totally for it.

[chewie]

The problem with the Mektek and NBT created non canonical mechs is that there just isn't room for them right now.

The time frame is 3049, we have enough mechs (and so do the devs) to choose from, each with its own load out and specs with at least 2 or more varients to it.

Lets look at the Deimos

• 6 x Ultra AC/2s
  
• 2 x ER Medium Lasers
  
• 2 x LRM-15s
  
• 1 x Laser Anti-Missile System

Munchy to say the least, designed to suppress advancing forces by keeping them rocking and rolling with all those AC2's.

But its a mech that hasnt been thought up/turned up until (as far as the BTU is concerned) the late 3060's

If you want a non canon mech, look for the battletechnology magazine inspired ones.

but anyway, theirs enough out there for the time frame that we don't need anything non canon yet.

[El Loco]

I'm for canon only... but more because I don't want the devs being swamped with design suggestions for new 'Mechs. I can understand everyone who wants to have non-canonical chassis included, but, as many have said already, we do have a table of plenty to draw upon...

[Stone Profit]

Vexgrave Lars, on 17 February 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:

Stone

The problem is that the Universe we will operate in is not the static universe in the books. Canon gets an A/C round to the head after that day. After launch the games borders will change as groups win and lose battles, worlds will change hands that never did before. The pervasive universe that has existed in literature will not be the same as it always was after the launch date of this iteration of the MW game. Why should there be an expectation that technology won't be as diverse in time?

Again.. not at launch... after 3050 sure.

In your TT group... did you always lose the battles you were supposed to? Probably not. Did your opposing force make believe you didn't win.. Like you would let them (LOL, "griefing" is half the battle even at the table).

Again.. Specs and Designs differ... Not trying to sway you, I agree their needs to be conservation, I just dont agree that saving every mech in the canon, makes sense, if the canon is gone after day one, and that as the game develops so should the gear.

Note: Some of that unused "stuff" is unused because players found it to be well.. useless, I know I found several things I never used among, mechs, armor, infanrty, helos, aero... playstyle or it just plain sucked. Thats why

Ive never known the existing BT universe to be static. In fact, i have found it to be ever evolving and changing. Perhaps not everyone has the patience to enjoy what is without screaming more more more, but thats a flaw that shouldnt require everyone to suffer because some people want new stuff. And the tech of BT is also ever evolving, from things like mrms in the 3050s to racs in the 60s.

just because you find no use for things does not mean an(other) intelligent resourceful player couldnt. Not to be insulting, but thats like "I dont know when you would need an e-brake on a car, ive never used it, so lets stop putting them on cars"

and ive never griefed anyone, and those who do are sad little people who cant stand losing. A well adjusted person knows ya win sometimes and lose other times its called life

Edited by Stone Profit, 17 February 2012 - 12:32 PM.

[chewie]

[EDMW]CSN, on 17 February 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

The only issue that some of these "same old mechs" never appeared anywhere in many MW games. Or appeared once and disappeared forever. When was the last time someone rode a Champion, a Cataphract, Caesar, Grasshopper or the Guillotine ?

They certainly don't look ugly (well the Champion is a little wonky looking) and don't suffer the same unseen drama. Why not give them a shot ? These are all 3025 to 3050 era heavies fyi all ~

Champion - MW3
Quickdraw - MPBT 3025
Grasshopper - MPBT 3025

give them chance to decide what they would like to prepare for us, guys.

Its pointless getting yourselves psyched up for something that is likely never gonna happen.

[Exilyth]

Nope.
Unless it's only 1 or 2 designs per era, designed by an official using the TT construction rules. Form follows function, after all.

Most mechs chassis/variants are designed for specific roles, they're having certain strengths and weaknesses.
It's being not being the 100% efficient munch machine what gives most designs their distinctive flavor.

Also, what's frightening for many old players is that someone might go wizkids all over the construction rules and design something unbalanced.


That, and some new players come waltzing in here with an ego larger than the IS, demanding the whole universe to be changed to their current whim.

Edited by Exilyth, 17 February 2012 - 12:34 PM.

[MaddMaxx]

How is anyone ever going to know what it feels like to drive (insert other old era mech) if the Dev don't bring them to life?

Atlas, Hunchback, Catapult, Jenner Classics, iconic even, but to a new player, from totally outside the genre, until some old Grognard jades them with their totally biased take, what does it matter what 70T Mech they drive? None.

The Grognards dictate the Menu and then get to tell the Newbs to be happy they got them the flavors "they" like and and such, so should the newb.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 17 February 2012 - 01:27 PM.

[Vexgrave Lars]

Stone Profit, on 17 February 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

Ive never known the existing BT universe to be static. In fact, i have found it to be ever evolving and changing. Perhaps not everyone has the patience to enjoy what is without screaming more more more, but thats a flaw that shouldnt require everyone to suffer because some people want new stuff. And the tech of BT is also ever evolving, from things like mrms in the 3050s to racs in the 60s.

just because you find no use for things does not mean an(other) intelligent resourceful player couldnt. Not to be insulting, but thats like I dont know when you would need an e-brake on a car, ive never used it, so lets stop putting them on.

Cars have brakes? No kidding..
No insult taken... its not unreasonable to ask.. If were taking everything in canon.. that means Solaris VII mechs on the field too? int he game.. at launch. (and updated when the canon says the new gear becomes available presumably)?

So then since this is an new evolution of the game, we should only allow for what has already been done with our pieces.. Like Chess always has the same pieces? (Hundreds though there are.) I'm not screaming for more.. I'm saying allow it to evolve just like your statement, these are NOT the same guys that wrote the original or even subsequent materials.

Of course thinking about it, this whole topic is a troll.

Fact is, the Game Developers and Company have a license, and depending on the allowances of the license they may not even be allowed to add "new" mechs, our opinions really, not all that important.

So I'll say this, IF it was my game, and the license allowed for it, yes I'd drop in some new art on fogy looking mechs, and new designs with different, yet adherent to the rules Specifications equipment about 1 year after launch. I would not allow the rules to get tossed out the window on weight or specs.

[Stone Profit]

Vexgrave Lars, on 17 February 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

Cars have brakes? No kidding.. (I said ebrakes, l2read)
No insult taken... its not unreasonable to ask.. If were taking everything in canon.. that means Solaris VII mechs on the field too? int he game.. at launch. (and updated when the canon says the new gear becomes available presumably)?

So then since this is an new evolution of the game, we should only allow for what has already been done with our pieces.. Like Chess always has the same pieces? (Hundreds though there are.)(since when are there hundreds of chess pieces?and using a game that hasnt changed in hundreds of yearsto prove your point really doesnt help your point, especially since it is an incredibly complex and consuming game.) I'm not screaming for more.. I'm saying allow it to evolve just like your statement,(youre evolve and mine are not the same thing, buddy. Mine involes the evolution ofthe canon, whereas youres in just an excuse to add things that were never intended nor needed because that happens to be what you want.) these are NOT the same guys that wrote the original or even subsequent materials. (no, theyre just drawing on what has already been laid out.)

Of course thinking about it, this whole topic is a troll.

Fact is, the Game Developers and Company have a license, and depending on the allowances of the license they may not even be allowed to add "new" mechs, our opinions really, not all that important.

So I'll say this, IF it was my game, and the license allowed for it, yes I'd drop in some new art on fogy looking mechs, and new designs with different, yet adherent to the rules Specifications equipment about 1 year after launch. I would not allow the rules to get tossed out the window on weight or specs.

youre confusing not going outside canon with including everything canon.

Edited by Stone Profit, 17 February 2012 - 09:24 PM.

[osito]

i say no to non cannon. Yes i know some cannon mechs are ugly, stupid and useless but there are plenty of good designs that have never been in game that should get a chance to shine rather then some noob design. I want to see a Crockett mech in action way before a non canon design. Crockett gets no real love in games, yet it is a solid design i would like to see.

There is also the fact that in game it is only 3049. There are a whole crap load of new designs and improvements on old designs to come.
bushwhacker and i.s omni Hauptmann, Templar, sunder, avatar. There is no reason for noob designs that are untested to be in game. that is my opinion and i can understand the other side of wanting to see new designs.

[Tsen Shang]

Stone Profit, on 17 February 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

If you cant be a rational adult who comprehends what he/she reads, then i have no desire to discuss things with you. Laters, trollo

Arguments, not insults. Please go read the posting etiquette and rules threads, you're going way over the edge and I'm not even the one being insulted.



That being said, the last time Battletech 'evolved' we ended up with Dark Age. Being loyal fans, most of us accepted it (albeit reluctantly), but lets call a spade a spade here: Dark Age sucked. We don't want Battletech to 'evolve' unless it's in a tightly controlled, intelligent, and well directed setting. I trust Randall Bills with this. That's about it.

[Opus]

I love canon mechs, don't get me wrong guys...and I hate the frakenmechs I see on meknet sometimes

but we have no clue what the developers are planning, I would love to sit back and watch certain story-line battles like a movie, and see what wild mechs are thrown in...clan fights or such

but IF they work with fasa, and develop something new that makes sense down the road, I can see it happening, but its wild speculation again

I just am not cutting off the possibility

[Stone Profit]

Tsen Shang, on 17 February 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

Arguments, not insults. Please go read the posting etiquette and rules threads, you're going way over the edge and I'm not even the one being insulted.



That being said, the last time Battletech 'evolved' we ended up with Dark Age. Being loyal fans, most of us accepted it (albeit reluctantly), but lets call a spade a spade here: Dark Age sucked. We don't want Battletech to 'evolve' unless it's in a tightly controlled, intelligent, and well directed setting. I trust Randall Bills with this. That's about it.

not an insult, simply a statement of fact. If you cant understand whats being said and reply to something that wasnt even mentioned, then im not talking to you. I am completely within the rules/etiquitte. Perhaps you dont know what discussion really means? An argument is well thought out and constructed, not just an offhand "youre wrong". try again, bucko, you dont like what i have to say, fine, but dont accuse me of insulting someone i wasnt insulting.

Edited by Stone Profit, 17 February 2012 - 01:02 PM.

[Jehan]

Without having read all posts, I'm on the side that whoever takes the time and effort to develop a Mechwarrior game for the BT community allowing us to play [for free!!!!] our beloved game, has the right to 'leave its mark' in the game in the form of a new mech. And odds are that those mechs will be probably 'canonized' after their appearance.

[Sychodemus]

I would like to see them introduce most of the canon 'mechs first (just so we can say that ALL of them can be played in MWO.) However, if an artist comes up with a beauitful design and BTU developers see it and think it would be worthwhile addition to the canon, I would be fine with that as well.
It's kind of silly though, it's a game set in the past (3049) of the present (3140) form of the future of the 1980s. I think that there is plenty of room for the new and the old.

[Lorcan Lladd]

Most canon 'Mechs won't be featured in this game, whether canonically depicted in this same time frame or not; I don't expect any non-canon designs to fare any better...
...I would be glad to have them, to be sure, but I don't see it happening.

[Vexgrave Lars]

I got no insult from that Stone... I'm not mad

Canon Mechs means those mechs in the existing literature and previous iterations of the game.

Non-canon means those of new origin in both structure and specification as never seen before (NOTE: or as seen in games not attached to the origin canon as above or the official MW license)

Like when 3050 they added all the clan gear

Is that what we're talking about? Not trolling as I said this whole things a troll. The poster put up an inflammatory questionnaire, of course its based on opinion which everyone's is different.

Edited by Vexgrave Lars, 17 February 2012 - 01:09 PM.

[Marauder3D]

Vexgrave Lars, on 17 February 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

1. Plenty of canon gear, while true 2/3rds are kind of well... crude garbage.

Crude garbage is what most mechs were. This is the result of the Succession Wars. Overly optimized mechs lead down the road to Munchkinism. This leads to the dark side. I'm not implying that this is what you want from the game at all. I'm only saying that this line of thinking gets dangerous fast.

Vexgrave Lars, on 17 February 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

5. Balance! I hate that. Battletech and MW TT and CBG have almost no balance... and if youv'e played it you know the story about an Atlas against 20 Wasps... that is NOT balance, thats war. The guy with the bigger stick, and best supplies, and R&D/Manufacturing base usually wins. You want balance I can suggest some Blizzard games. Lets not be sure that everyone gets a trophy for showing up by ******* on all of the "reality" aspects of the game.

What I meant by balance was not coming from a place of WoW, so to speak. I'm kind of coming from a place of MW:LL. Balance comes in terms of systems, not platforms. So we aren't trying to balance an Atlas against a Wasp. There is no balancing that, I agree.

Balance means how to we balance the advantages and disadvantages of the table top game into a real time simulation? How do we make people actually want to use Autocannons--which are in many cases completely outclassed by ER PPC's or Gauss Rifles. How do we balance acceleration vs. speed? How do we balance how easy it is to lock on and fire LRM's as opposed to how hard it is to balance leading a target at 500 meters that is going 97 KPH at a 90 degree angle of deflection with an Autocannon?

Honestly, I agree with you that ultimately if the designers want to have some fun, they have put in a ton of work and we shouldn't begrudge them a creation of two. I myself would just like to see resources and balancing and all the other odds and ends that go into creating a viable Mech game be the priority. One non-canon mech wouldn't be the end of the world. Creating 10 new mechs when we already have umpteen hundred? That would bother me a lot.

[Tsen Shang]

I don't see it as trolling, since it was meant as an honest discussion. Differing opinions oftentimes lead to disagreements, and that's where (hopefully) discussion comes in.

I'm glad you're easygoing Vex, that tone would've set a lot of people off. Good man.

[Vexgrave Lars]

Tsen Shang, on 17 February 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

I don't see it as trolling, since it was meant as an honest discussion. Differing opinions oftentimes lead to disagreements, and that's where (hopefully) discussion comes in.

I'm glad you're easygoing Vex, that tone would've set a lot of people off. Good man.

As in everything people love.. respecting the variation of perspective is more important to gaining friends than being a man so right he is alone on a rock.