52 replies to this topic

[Xarg Talasko]

Trothkin! Freebirths! Quadrupeds! Lend me your ears! (you will now read this in an Ace Ventura voice)

I've seen a lot of people discussing the potential problems regarding player Clan factions, the dilemma of Zellbrigen, and how it's somewhat unfeasible to rely on the Clan playerbase to police themselves. Well, last night I was thinking (no, it didn't hurt, thank you very much) about ways to deal with these complaints, because I've also noticed in those same threads, very few people coming up with suggestions that didn't involve trusting the playerbase, or only recruiting from the RP elite who'd have no real issue with playing honourably in the first place.

So I thought "Why not use the game code itself to enforce the rules?" That might sound confusing at first, so allow me to elaborate.

I imagine when people talk about Zellbrigen adherence, one of the things they mean, is that they're afraid (in a hypothetical 5v8 scenario) that all of the Clan players are going to immediately lock onto 1 player and blow them to pieces. Solution? Each player picks a target (I imagine this would be done under the reticule), which puts a blue overlay or skin or something over that target, which marks that target red in a similar way to all the other Star members. If we assume a uniform honour code (no per Clan differences for sake of simplicity in this example) the rear of a 'Mech is also painted red. Attacking a red zone/target accrues "dishonourable conduct" points. These points are NOT visible to player, so there's no metagaming/riding the edge of the punishment meter. On the same note, if a target you are not engaged with fires upon you, it changes from red to blue and you are allowed to fire upon it.

Coming up, a (probably incomplete) list of basic Zellbrigen rules, and how I feel they could be enforced with software, and further expansions upon the dishonourable conduct and reward/punishments.

Zellbrigen rules

-A Warrior will never fire on a 'Mech already engaged with another opponent. This means that no double teaming or gang banging allowed.
-- Already covered

-A Warrior will at no time initiate physical attack, such as charging, punching, kicking, or clubbing.
-- This may be irrelevant unless physical attacks are in the game.

-Only in the event that a Warrior has no more weapons at his or her disposal, may the he or she engage in physical attacks.
-- See above.

-Fire on a retreating 'Mech
-- This is a tricky one, what indicates a fleeing target? I propose that a button be allocated to signal that a unit is retreating. That entire target is then painted red, but is required to remove itself from the battlefield. If it does not move to within a certain distance of the deploy zone within a certain time limit (this will have to be generous in cases of leg/engine damage) then it may be painted blue again. Also, that target may choose to fake a retreat, pull some distance and re-engage. Upon that occurance, the target will be painted blue for all Clan players, to punish their dishonourable conduct.

-Fire on a shutdown or fallen 'Mech
-- While I don't know if there will be falling over in this, a shutdown target will be painted red until it powers up again, at which time it will be painted blue again and ready for combat.

-Fire at the rear of a 'Mech
-- Already covered, paint the rear of the target red

-Target the head of a 'Mech
-- This one could be tough, I would propose that non-direct fire (LRM/SRM for instance) be exempt from this, though putting a PPC through someones face will trigger the red paint and accrue dishonour points.

"However, in the event that the enemy fails to follow RoE, one may return the dishonor. For example, if the enemy attacks using physicals, the Warrior may return the physical only to that enemy. In the event where the enemy as a whole act dishonorably, the commanding Clan officer may call a Grand Melee, at which point the battle field becomes a free for all--a Warrior may at this point use any means at his or her disposal to terminate the enemy."

I would propose that this part of Zellbrigen be ignored. Acting 'dishonourably' is going to be a huge part of winning as the Inner Sphere, and this rule would effectively allow the 5v1 we want to avoid. Similarly, there are (to the best of my knowledge) some rules about not hiding from an opponent and always firing a weapon when they cycle. I propose those rules also be removed, as they will be too crippling in certain environments, especially urban combat.

Now, on to the reward, punishment, and 'dishonour points' things I mentioned earlier.


Weight based fighting

I envisioned a weight vs weight based 'honour' system for the Clan team, to encourage the Clan team to test themselves. For example:

60 ton Clan 'Mech, vs 60 ton IS 'Mech. Weights are even, and with a weighting system of say 1 point per ton, this IS 'Mech would be worth 60 honour to defeat.

60 ton Clan 'Mech, vs 40 ton IS 'Mech. Weights are different, and with such a weight/tech disparity, instead of 40 points, this target is only worth 20. If the IS 'Mech in this example was under 40 tons, an even higher negative modifier would be applied. This helps to make light IS 'Mechs more viable, they are liable to be ignored as the Clan players cannot make any real character 'progression' by fighting them.

60 ton Clan 'Mech, vs 80 ton IS 'Mech. Weights are within the 20 ton 'magic area', this target is worth 80 honour.

60 ton Clan 'Mech vs 85+ ton IS 'Mech. A 1.5x modifier to honour (instead of the -2x modifier for fighting lighter) is applied here.

The idea is to encourage Clan players to fight at their tonnage or above, similar to how MMORPG games handle character levelling - anything below your level starts offering drastically lower XP amounts, to encourage you to fight equal or higher level opponents.


Dishonourable conduct

I briefly covered a nebulous concept earlier I named "dishonourable conduct". What I mean by this is - to encourage the Clan players to play honourably, as per the Zellbrigen rules of engagement, you need to use the software to enforce this by punishing people who try to sneak a solid backshot or who "accidentally" large laser to the face their enemy. I also said that the progress bar for this dishonourable conduct should be invisible to the player, to avoid people trying to space out their offences, or keep a higher number of low value offences going to avoid punishment.

This dishonourable conduct system also takes into account the hypothetical 'Mechlab. If you're rolling around in a high powered custom 'Mech, and hit that threshold for dishonourable conduct, your next mission will see you limited to a stock variant of that same chassis, or one of the same weight. Further infringements before the dishonourable conduct values decay back to a 'safe' level, will result in your character being pushed down to a lower tonnage asset. This punishes repeat or overly serious misconduct by forcing a player down the tonnage ladder, enough infringements will result in someone being stuck in a 'Mech so light that the IS players should have no issue finishing them off.

Assuming no 'Mechlab, the down-tonning punishment still applies. The entire point of the dishonourable conduct system, and the tonnage based weighting system, should promote enjoyable combat for the IS team (no getting instastomped by the entire Clan team), the Clan team (rewards for playing the way the Clans 'should' - attacking targets that are actually a challenge), while punishing people who pick Clan for the tech, then decide to go stomping all over everything. Possibly add dishonour points to a massively unfair Clan vs IS 'Mech matchup (50-60 ton difference in favour of the Clan Player, but not too large as this may be unavoidable in some battles due to enemy force composition.)

[Uncle Totty]

When it comes to shooting your opponent in the back. You have to remember that some mechs can fire their weapons backwards.

[Xarg Talasko]

You're assuming that backwards firing weapons will be in this game. Also, you can shoot them in the arms/legs while they face away from you. If someone wants to use their back weapons on me, I'm taking his arm off.

[Insidious Johnson]

You hard code it into the game, it'll get abused. Say, you are engaged with my wingman. For me to also engage you, all you have to do is hit me. I can make that happen simply by shielding my wingman from a streak or missle volley with my own mech... then its 2v1 action YOU started. After the flogging, the complaining. Its just like America. We don't need better rules, just better people. Where is that dislike feature?

[Xarg Talasko]

It seems a far better solution that simply trusting the playerbase to be nice about it. Feel free to disagree with me or submit amendments/corrections, instead of just 'no this is dumb lol'. However, to address your point, as this was raised by people I was discussing it with, there would be % based exemptions. If I launch an SRM6 at your friend, and 1 sails past and hits you, unless it's happening repeatedly it could be set not to trigger dishonour points. Also remember, it's highly likely that you will also have a marked opponent. If you're moving so as to shield your wingman from me, I'm just going to stop taking most shots, meanwhile your opponent is carving you into sushi because you're no longer taking evasive action against him.

Edited by Xarg Talasko, 19 February 2012 - 11:12 PM.

[zymphor]

no this is dumb lol

[Xarg Talasko]

[zymphor]

DEAL WITH IT.

[Xarg Talasko]

It'll be tough, but I'll have to manage somehow. Anyone else got any criticisms or scenarios they don't think my post covers?

[Polymorphyne]

I think the devs already said that when they bring in Clans, that clan players will be able to nominate enemy mechs and declare them as their own target, and win honour points (clan lps) by taking down nominated mechs solo. (I assume you would lose honour points for messing with anothers claimed target)

[Taj the White Tiger]

Personally i actually like xargs idea, yes it perhaps does need a bit of tweak but most importantly it most certainly insures clan player will have to follow zell and thus there tech advantages are negated to an extent, if zell isn't hardcoded all that will happen is hardcores will follow it, but casuals munchinkins minmaxers etc will break it when every they get in trouble

[VoodooLou Kerensky]

Well since it seems that Units that are Canonical wont be player controlled (Imagine some one getting control of Steiner and focusing on attacking Davion exclusively because of some grudge against them) then more than likely the Canonical Clans wont be player controlled either. But even if they are player controlled The Inner Sphere doesnt follow Zellbrigen and not attacking a Mech with available resources isnt a smart way to do battle. Honor is all fine and well but the Victor writes the History, and one mans 'Freedom Fighter' is anothers 'Terrorist'. Think of it this way; Zellbrigen is like wearing bright red uniforms and marching in formation while your foe's wear dark or drab colors, hide behind rocks and trees while shooting at you. Now for Clan vs Clan battles ok, no problem with following Zellbrigen since Canonically thats what they did, but to force players to do so shouldnt be a concern of the Dev's. Its like batchall it makes sense to the Clans but the IS has no clue about it so if you bid low to get the 'Honor' of attacking an area theres nothing holding the IS back from throwing overwhelming force on the attacking Clans forces, or if the area is deemed an acceptable loss the tieing up of the Forces sent in there-by removing those forces from areas where they could be put to better use. Resources and Supply line corridors should be more of the focus for the Clans as Invaders because getting cut off limits repairs, resupply and being able to press forward your attack. Its a nice idea but in practicality its lacking. Individual loyalty points is fine too but what shows more loyalty to your Command, getting curb stomped because your Star only attacked single opponents or winning a Victory because you used your entire force to attack one target at a time to destroy the opposing Force faster?

[Xarg Talasko]

While I appreciate your concerns VoodooLou, this post was merely meant to illustrate a possible, workable implementation of Zellbrigen style combat should such a thing be required. If Clan players are not expected to adhere to Zellbrigen, then no harm has been done by my irrelevant post. Do you have any concerns with my post, if we assume that Zellbrigen is expected to be in effect, and these rules are the implemented rules of that Zellbrigen? (Ie changes that should be made or something that I forgot?)

[Alan Grant]

I think it's a good idea.

Remember that when the clans first came along they canonically used zellbrigen against the inner sphere, and were shocked the IS were even more "barbarous" than they had thought when the IS didn't have a clue what the clans were doing. [Although I think some units like the Knights of the Inner Sphere of house Marik had some idea.]

And then not all IS units resorted to dishonourable combat, some IS units took part in zellbrigen when they understood it, and for their part won some of those engagements.

When the clans do show up in a year, something along the lines of what Xarg said being implemented is not beyond reason to make sure everything fits in and feels right as best it can. The devs have probably spent more than a few entire weekends thinking about it, and will probably spend many more like them till that time comes deciding exactly how to deal with the clan scenario.

[And I for one, won't mind playing "honourable" on the battlefield for a few matches against the clans.]

Edited by alan grant, 20 February 2012 - 03:48 AM.

[Victor Morson]

First off: This is a horrible idea.

Second off: A LOT OF THIS WAS MADE UP INTERNET HOOKEY AND IS NOT CANON ZELLBRINGEN.

Examples - Firing on shutdown targets. Valid in Zell. Firing on knocked down targets. Valid in Zell. Firing on fleeing targets.. Valid in Zell. Firing at the rear of targets. VALID IN ZELL.

Zell's honor system was designed to preserve equipment and lives, to try to clean up warfare and maintain technology. It was not designed to be an anime otaku wetdream. Tons of crap gets attached to the zell rules on the net by people who are way more into the latter.

If a unit wants to engage in Zell, basically they'd only fire on targets that fired on them and vice versa. Even the most stalwart of Clans has a complete and total right to break Zell at the moment the enemy does, too, becuase the Clans are not suicidal. In otherwords, Zell fighting didn't last very long against the IS, outside of a few specific battles with the Combine.

So yeah. No. Do not enforce this as anything other than maybe some kind of one-off achivement stat.

EDIT: Oh yeah, last off, the Clans have NO rules about weight based fighting. Lights are just as powerful and useful as assaults in the right role and hands in their eyes, with one ilKahn driving a 35 ton 'mech and another driving a tank. So again, internet bull that has no baring on in-universe Zell.

Edited by Victor Morson, 20 February 2012 - 04:15 AM.

[Xarg Talasko]

Fair play, which book did you get your rules from? I grabbed the rules in the OP from the net, I've found some basic rules in Warriors of Kerensky. Where should I be looking for the proper duelling rules?

[zymphor]

Xarg Talasko, on 20 February 2012 - 04:36 AM, said:

Fair play, which book did you get your rules from? I grabbed the rules in the OP from the net, I've found some basic rules in Warriors of Kerensky. Where should I be looking for the proper duelling rules?

Sarna.net.

[Xarg Talasko]

Well after consulting Warriors of Kerensky, the Total Warfare book and looking at Sarna, it's quite clear I didn't do my homework fully on this one. Come to think of it, there are almost no rules in there at all. I guess a good chunk of my OP is irrelevant, but it's nice to see one thing in this universe remains constant, Victor's horrible attitude.

Ps Vic, I wasn't suggesting any RULES about weight based combat, instead reward ratios. That makes 2 people in here that didn't do their homework.

Edited by Xarg Talasko, 20 February 2012 - 06:15 AM.

[Arnold Carns]

Xarg Talasko, on 20 February 2012 - 06:14 AM, said:

Well after consulting Warriors of Kerensky, the Total Warfare book and looking at Sarna, it's quite clear I didn't do my homework fully on this one. Come to think of it, there are almost no rules in there at all. I guess a good chunk of my OP is irrelevant, but it's nice to see one thing in this universe remains constant, Victor's horrible attitude.

There are some basic infos about Clan RoE in the "Rules" sections of the Field Manuals "Crusader Clans" and "Warden Clans" (FASA 1706 & 1711). That's what I remember. I'll see if I can find something more about Clan RoE in the other various FASA Handbooks.

Your idea basically isn't a real wrong one. If stripped the parts which don't fit it would be a nice addition to the game IMHO.
I don't expect any 12, 13 or 14 years old kid to know much about "honor", and your little set of suggestions would be a base everyone would be shoven by to the right direction.

Edited by Arnold Carns, 20 February 2012 - 02:05 PM.

[Arnold Carns]

Insidious Johnson, on 19 February 2012 - 10:30 PM, said:

You hard code it into the game, it'll get abused. Say, you are engaged with my wingman. For me to also engage you, all you have to do is hit me. I can make that happen simply by shielding my wingman from a streak or missle volley with my own mech... then its 2v1 action YOU started. After the flogging, the complaining. Its just like America. We don't need better rules, just better people. Where is that dislike feature?

Clan RoE just don't only rely on who do fire on who. Interference is the keyword.
If you shield someone with your 'Mech or block the LOS of one opponent or doing anything likewise, you're interfering and so violate the rules of zellbrigen. Any actions like those will automatically mark you as a violator and you'll be a legal target for anyone on the field. Anyone is allowed to attack you, stomp on you or kick your sorry carcass around the area and even teaming up against you won't be count as a dishonorable action.

That could be put in in some way that around each combatant involved in zellbrigen there will be a zone (about 200 or 300 m in diameter) in which none except the oponent is allowed to move in or just only be there. Moving in on either the defender or attacker and or being in that zone for a reasonable amount of time (you'll receive some sort of an an audio warning or such) will mark you red (or orange or any other color that'll denote that THIS Mech is an open target) for everyone on the enemy team which are now allowed to attack you in any way they like without getting punished for maybe dishonorable actions.

Edited by Arnold Carns, 20 February 2012 - 01:47 PM.