62 replies to this topic

[GaussDragon]

Halfinax, on 29 February 2012 - 07:43 AM, said:

The game is F2P so they definitely want a lot of sinks for the in-game currency. After all a moderately slow rate of C-bill acquisition is how they would encourage players to use real money to buy new 'Mechs, but still ensure that players that don't spend money can get those same 'Mechs.

This.

In addition, inflation could be a bit of a problem. Maybe they could make, say, clan weapons or certain variants of weapons be only 2% better than the next level down, but cost 10-20 times more. Players are going to want every single edge and this may help get some of the C-bills out of the economy so that active, rich players don't eventually have a wallet so large that virtually everything on the market is considered 'cheap'.

[SI The Joker]

I finally found where the whole mech thing is referenced in the blog:

Quote

Let's say you level up your mech and pilot through a series of battles, and then one fateful day you have your ride completely destroyed. Do you lose all mech XP and start over in a new mech, but retain your buff pilot abilities? –BarHaid
[PAUL] You will not be able to have your ’Mech destroyed but that being said, if you somehow lost your ’Mech you would not have to rework your way through the mech Tree. You retain your XP for that chassis.
[DAVID] Your ’Mech can never be completely destroyed. Even when it’s shot to pieces, your team of mechanics and techies are skilled enough to restore it to a bare minimum, just barely functioning state. If you pay your repair bills, they’ll be able to repair it all the way up to a perfectly pristine condition. So you won’t lose any of your ’Mech XP or the ’Mech Efficiencies that you have unlocked with it. Also, keep in mind that the ’Mech Efficiencies represent not just the small tweaks and tuning that your tech team performs on the ’Mechs that you pilot, but also your ability as a pilot to squeeze the extra mile out of every system as you become more familiar with operating a particular model or variant.
[GARTH] To be clear, you could take a damaged ‘Mech into combat, if you wanted to.

Ok, based on this - to me, it seems to work as follows:

- You will never lose your mech once you have it
- You will be responsible for repairing your mech between battles, and that will cost you c-bills
- If you don't repair your mech from battle to battle and it gets damaged, it will stay in that damged state
- If your mech is completely destroyed and you do absolutely nothing, in the next match it will be restored to a "just barely functioning state".

This would then make c-bills more valuable, hence alleviating the OP's concerns... at least somewhat. Yes? No?

[Michael Wolfe]

So the game is primarily a tactical combat game with no thought given to conquering planets and solar systems? (Sorry I come from Eve, arguably the best MMO in regards to territorial sovereignty and realistic economy). Without a system to produce raw materials, make materials into items you wish to purchase (and items you salvage back into raw materials) C-Bills will lose value as the game progresses and as the players become more advanced (through inflation & accumulation of C-Bills)

[Slyck]

If there are no PC stores and plenty of incentive to spend you C-Bills on repairs and new mechs then it shouldn't be an issue.

[zverofaust]

Michael Wolfe, on 29 February 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

So the game is primarily a tactical combat game with no thought given to conquering planets and solar systems? (Sorry I come from Eve, arguably the best MMO in regards to territorial sovereignty and realistic economy). Without a system to produce raw materials, make materials into items you wish to purchase (and items you salvage back into raw materials) C-Bills will lose value as the game progresses and as the players become more advanced (through inflation & accumulation of C-Bills)

For the love of christ why is it so hard for an Eve player to exist anywhere on the internet without trying to compare every ******* thing to EvE Online. Eve isn't even that good a game.

MWO isn't some open world free market economy. You earn money by playing and there's an ingame store to buy different crap for your Mech, the same as in 95% of games ever made. Logically one can assume based on how the problem of infinitely-generating money has been tackled in similar games, the game will be designed so that piloting the most lavish, powerfully-armed walking behemoth Mechs is going to be a net drain on your income via ridiculous repair and ammunition bills, making it very hard for most players to maintain a stable amount of money let alone make a continuous profit. You'll make the bulk of your money piloting mid-tier Mechs for a little bit and then slowly blowing it all on constant repairs and rearmament for your big Atlas. Bam, there's your money drain.

[Ray Mason]

Interesting discussion. While in theory a PvP only environment should slow down inflation it’s not realistic to expect a working economy. I expect a system when both winning and losing gets you some money, just different amount. It would be great if say you couldn’t save up more than XXXX and thus couldn’t afford a heavier and more expensive mech (unless you improve your play) but I’m sure there will be other factors to limit your progression and find your “plateau”.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

`They've stated that all mechs are available at start up. Given that, the bigger the mech the more it's going to cost to repair and re-ammo. If you run an Atlas you'd better hope you keep winning without taking damage if you want to pilot it very often.. If you're an average pilot, or hit a loosing streak I can easily see you having to pay real money to get your repairs done. 4 hours pl;ay could see 10 games. That's a lot of C-bills for costs. House members get a "salary" which increases as you gain loyalty points and "rank". Merc's can get income if they "hold" a planet. Lone Wolves have to make do with what they earn from each game. I can see people running at a slight deficit quite easily.

[Halfinax]

Michael Wolfe, on 29 February 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

So the game is primarily a tactical combat game with no thought given to conquering planets and solar systems? (Sorry I come from Eve, arguably the best MMO in regards to territorial sovereignty and realistic economy). Without a system to produce raw materials, make materials into items you wish to purchase (and items you salvage back into raw materials) C-Bills will lose value as the game progresses and as the players become more advanced (through inflation & accumulation of C-Bills)

You seem to be assuming a player driven economy. We have no evidence what so ever that this game will have a player driven economy therefore it is unreasonable to assume that inflation will be a factor. In addition with a lack of evidence for crafting skills there is even less chance of inflation being a factor for in-game currency anyway.

Edited by Halfinax, 01 March 2012 - 03:23 PM.

[Rugarou]

Devs have stated that everything in the store will be available to players without having to use RL cash (though it may take awhile to get said items). I know they said that, but can't for the life of me find it in the dev blogs (help please?). This eliminates, in some ways, the need for a player driven economy. I do not envision there being a player driven economy at the start. One may appear after a while though once PGI have a steady enough cash flow.

I also imagine that assault mechs will be ghastly in repair cost and ordnance, heavies will be borderline break even, and mediums and lights will generate the most c-bills due to lower upkeep. If we attach this to other money sinks such as transportation cost, general company/lance upkeep (food/lodging/etc), and splits for completed contracts for mercs/lonewolves money sinks could easily keep c-bills from getting out of control. That is if the devs incorporate such things.

Transportation cost could also be another way to keep folks from battling on opposite sides of the IS within minutes of a battle being over and would limit the range in which merc companies control planets. But that a totaly different discussion.

[Dirk Le Daring]

have a look at this -----> http://mwomercs.com/...e-free-to-play/


also, if i remember correctly, you earn C-Bills every day you log in......cannot find the thread though

Edited by Dirk Le Daring, 02 March 2012 - 07:59 PM.

[Kartr]

Firstly money should never be considered a form of character advancement in any sort of game that has people gaining experience and growing better.

We are going to have contracts correct? Been hearing this around more though I'm not sure how it would be implemented, but assuming it is true and the devs are implementing contracts then the following should apply.
1. You get paid regardless of winning or loosing. After all 'Mercs are paid to fight, there's no clause stating you have to win to get paid, just have to be alive.

2. There will probably be a bonus for winning, and maybe completing secondary objectives.

3. There will hopefully be salvage for the winners, perhaps based off of how many enemy 'Mechs were destroyed.

If these are all true, and I don't think they're to wild to not be, then you will make money regardless of whether you win or loose. If you win you'll make more money and potentially get salvage. However if you take damage then there's going to be repair costs deducted from your bank account. Hopefully the contract values are enough to cover the cost of repairs and ammunition even in defeat as that will make it easier on players and make it less discouraging. Repairs and ammo costs have the advantage of keeping C-bills from becoming to plentiful allowing people to buy whatever they want and wind up getting bored.

If we're earning C-bills then we need something to spend them on!
1. New 'Mechs and 'Mech variants as we unlock them.
2. 'Mechlab modifications
3. Modules
4. Hula Girls and other knicknacks and dodads to customize our 'Mechs.
5. Maybe a grey market where we can buy/sell weapons and equipment even 'Mechs to/from other players

As for real-bills (R-bills) I don't think they should be convertable to C-bills. If you start letting people convert R-bills into C-bills then you rapidly start running into the Pay2Win scenario. R-bills should be used for things like unlocking alternate paint jobs, decals and other cool cosmetics. R-bills should also be used for things like rare 'Mechs that aren't on the normal tech trees. I started a list of possible R-bill items over in this thread if anyone is interested. R-bills could also be used for things like a "premium" account which would either decrease repair/rearm costs, increase C-bill earnings or experience gain for a few days to months, kind of like buying a subscription.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

@Katr - there has been extensive discussion over salvage. For many reasons I think it unlikely - you will get a C-bill equivalent instead. If you think about it, we have 60,000 signed on to the forum. At launch we can probably expect at least 100,00 playing. Which is a small number for an online game. Devs said to expect matches to last about 20 min. Thats 300,000 mechs fighting in an hour. say only half are destroyed/damaged. They have to work out individual salvage items from 150,000 mechs per hour? What do the winners do with all this salvage? Especially if we have a limited mechlab and can't use most of what we get. I think it requires a lot of work by the dev's with a minimal return for them.

[Nighthound]

I think this could all be done very easily.
First of you get to choose your faction, be it a house, a merc unit or choosing to be al lone wolf like stated in the dev posts.
If you play for a house you will get a smaller fee for any given contract (or a monthly payment or somesuch) but you also have lower repair, restock, new-mech-buy and what not costs. Always keeping in mind that u can only by mechs/variants that your house produces .... or you have to pay big c-bills to get the rival faction mech/variant. Merc and lone-wolf players would get new mechs/variants from any house at mid level prices but repair, restock costs have to be paid in full and are deducted from their own bank account.
Light and medium mechs are significantly cheaper in both repair/restock and purchase thus resulting in lower repair costs. Heavy and Assault Mechs should be (are) equivalently more expensive.
Now you have your missions (contracts). If you win you should always come out ahead in regards of c-bills. If you lose however, I would think having to repair your Commando would still give you some leftovers whereas losing in an Atlas would leave your wallet bleeding.
(Those who ever played Navyfield, know what i'm getting at) In other words there could be a threshold (mech tonnage or initial mech buy cost) over which losing would reduce your c-bill amount.
As for real money, by now all developers should now that you can't have gamestoppers (Must buy items) or gamewinners (Buy2Win) for sale without players leaving. There must be a posibility to achieve everything without having to pay, though it might make it faster or easier.

my 5 cents

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I think that you have summarised a fairly probable way that the game will work Nighthound. I think that people who want to drive an Atlas will have to be very good pilots and play with equally good lancemates to keep from having to subsidise their ride with real money. I'm just glad that my preferred rides are Medium/heavy - final choice to be made at Beta. I know in other threads it has been stated that unless they have done something different you will get drops of 11 assaults and a light. I think that this game is going to be very different. The devs seeem to have the ability to produce a gamewhere going assault is the only option from everything they've said so far.

[Kartr]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 03 March 2012 - 08:09 AM, said:

@Katr - there has been extensive discussion over salvage. For many reasons I think it unlikely - you will get a C-bill equivalent instead. If you think about it, we have 60,000 signed on to the forum. At launch we can probably expect at least 100,00 playing. Which is a small number for an online game. Devs said to expect matches to last about 20 min. Thats 300,000 mechs fighting in an hour. say only half are destroyed/damaged. They have to work out individual salvage items from 150,000 mechs per hour? What do the winners do with all this salvage? Especially if we have a limited mechlab and can't use most of what we get. I think it requires a lot of work by the dev's with a minimal return for them.

Why couldn't they? After all MMORPGs do it all the time. Input destroyed 'Mechs, check the list of equipment for those 'Mechs, output a number of items on that list according to a random roll.

Edited by Kartr, 03 March 2012 - 10:31 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

Kartr, on 03 March 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

Why couldn't they? After all MMORPGs do it all the time. Input destroyed 'Mechs, check the list of equipment for those 'Mechs, output a number of items on that list according to a random roll.

Sure, but this ain't an MMORPG.

[Orzorn]

I think it is extremely important that this game have a surrender function, or something like that. Perhaps you all have to high tail it back to your dropship (So they could still massacre you if they tried). The reason for this being that, because your mech can get damage, and that costs money, it should be a choice. Is this planet more important that the millions of c-bills it might cost you to repair your big shiny mech? Is everyone on your team dead and you're the only one left, most likely doomed to die?

Yes yes, some folks might talk of honorable dying while taking as many out as possible, but the monetarily inclined might argue that its best to cut your loses and get out of there. I think this would also help in making sure some players did not fall into a perpetual rut of having a barely functioning mech with no c-bills to repair it back up, because when they do repair it some, they just die in a mission and go all the way back to square one again. The ability to retreat would allow damaged mechs to slowly repair themselves back up through multiple missions. They'd just have to be careful.

[Sassori]

Any merc outfit that bails before taking 40% losses would quickly find itself not getting hired. They're expected to /earn/ their C-Bills, and that means fighting. It doesn't necessitate fighting to the death, but it means giving it a reasonable try. Which is about 40% losses so that when they pull out they're not completely unable to find more work.

Now they've mentioned a setup system to World of Tanks (We just have to hope there's no golden AC/Missile ammo). In which case I expect there might be starting two mechs of each choice for everyone, the others have to be purchased either with C-Bills earned, or, with RL cash through the cash shop.

That'd be my guess. As always since it's F2P (Not my favorite pay model but, no choice this time) there will always be claims of P2W. Even if it's just unlocking new chassis, they will be 'better' thus, the P2W cries will be there.

Also, 11 assaults and 1 scout would lose bad to a good mixed team of 3 lances. Mediums and lights have /zero/ problem staying in an assaults back when driven competently.

[Kartr]

Thorn Hallis, on 03 March 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

Sure, but this ain't an MMORPG.

That's not the point. The point is that the technology exists for distributing loot amongst players in games with very high population densities and almost constant loot generation. In fact it'd be easier in MWO because instead of having different kind of loot for every "zone" and different loot for every level, you have a short list of weapons and equipment. AC2/5/10/20, LB/10X, Gauss Rifle, Large/Medium/Small Laser, ER Large Laser, PPC, LRM-5/10/15/20, SRM-2/4/6, MG, Guardian ECM, Beagle Active Probe, and maybe C3, not sure if it exists yet. I may have missed a few but that is the equipment list we're going to have at this point. This is a significantly smaller list of possible loot than exists in any MMO I've played and rather than loot tables for every NPC killed in a game (TOR had over a Billion NPCs killed in less than the first month of play) you only have loot tables for every match fought. That's significantly less resources in two different areas than used in the current crop of MMORPGs, and the coding should be easier as well.

[Thorn Hallis]

Yes, but why should they implement something like that when they allready award the player with C-Bills and Xp based on that players performance?

Edited by Thorn Hallis, 03 March 2012 - 02:02 PM.