246 replies to this topic

[Darkthor]

give me a puma with standard 4 ER PPC's loadout at start,and ill be a happy happy man :>
'nuff said.

[LackofCertainty]

Thomas Hogarth, on 05 March 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

I didn't say all 'Mechs, just the extremely rare ones. I'll get quickly disillusioned with MWO if every other 'Mech is a super special limited production snowflake.

So, no. I don't think a single 'Mech is worth $100. But someone out there will, and those someones are much rarer than everyday players who are fine with a Steiner-model Banshee or any other comparable 'Mech.

People who want to spend thousands of dollars on a F2P game will find a way. You don't need to do anything other than release good content to get them. Plus you have to look at the number you can sell. If you make a 100$ mech, sure, you will sell a few of them. If you make that same mech cost 20$, you can still maintain the prestige of "this is -waaaay- more expensive than the 4$ skins I bought" but at the same time you sell many many many more of them. I guess if they wanted to be really insidious about it, they could release every mech at 100$ and then after a week add it into the game for in-game currency and drop the cost down to something resonable, but that kind of customer abuse really hurts a company's goodwill.

[Garth Erlam]

Ok, I'm going to bold and make this text larger to avoid any misunderstanding:
THIS IS ENTIRELY HOW I, MYSELF, AND NOT PIRANHA GAMES, FEELS ABOUT HOW THIS WORKS. THESE ARE VAGUE 'IT'S KINDA LIKE...' STATEMENTS.

The way one balances an Atlas isn't to make it's guns worse, or to only allow one Atlas, it's to make sure that other 'Mech chassis can defeat them.

A 'Mechs class is not the key determining factor in how it functions. It's the usage of. You wouldn't use a Dragon the same way you used a Catapult, right?

Quote

It changes nothing - 12 average Atlas' will waste 12 Commandos in every day. So, you 'argument' means nothing.

Three things:
1) That could be true in some cases - all I can say is we've proven in tests that even 1 v 1 a Jenner can beat an Atlas.
2) In your example, the problems aren't the assault 'Mechs, but the Scout 'Mechs.
3) I think the chances of 12 Atlas' vs. 12 Commandos is so vanishingly remote that the idea it needs to be balanced around that possibility is a misuse of resources.

[Darkthor]

...what about using the assaultbuster(glasscannon) puma?
Forget about guys who didnt really get the picture in earlier mech games....it's simple....every class has its uses.

Edited by Darkthor, 05 March 2012 - 12:55 PM.

[Orzorn]

Garth Erlam, on 05 March 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

The way one balances an Atlas isn't to make it's guns worse, or to only allow one Atlas, it's to make sure that other 'Mech chassis can defeat them.

A 'Mechs class is not the key determining factor in how it functions. It's the usage of. You wouldn't use a Dragon the same way you used a Catapult, right?

Well, I pointed something out like this in the thread about the separate crosshairs. Since an Atlas has the majority of its weapons in its torso, it has a disadvantage compared to a mech like the Commando or Dragon with more powerful weapons in their arms. They have much more maneuverability, both in speed and because of their arm weapons, than the Atlas does. I could easily see a Commando running circles around an Atlas taking well timed shots with its AC while the Atlas can only use its medium lasers because its torso can't twist faster than the Commando ran run.

[Garth Erlam]

Not to mention with the proper modules, etc, balance can also be maintained, but well put Orzorn.

I understand your thought process Scar, and as a fellow S.T.A.L.K.E.R. I approve of thinking of alternatives.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Thomas Hogarth, on 05 March 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

I'd like to see canonically rare 'Mechs cost a lot of real-world cash. I.e. Annihilator, Imp, Marauder-II and the like. I think $100 for one of those wouldn't be out of line, and would make them a rare sight indeed.

$5 for an Atlas would be acceptable. Atlases aren't the rarest things ever, but they aren't nearly as common as Zeuses or the like.

Of course, advanced technology (ER, Gauss, Pulse) is also rare, and assigning a dollar cost to variants that mount such technology might keep it somewhat under wraps.

Clanners are far less common than IS pilots. I think the Clan tree should also be a cash unlock, but I would hesitate to put a dollar amount of ALL Clan 'Mechs. A one-time "get in the door" cost would be fine.

Trouble is then you get in the business of selling power which is something the devs are supposedly trying to avoid. The rare stuff is going to be the Loyalty point based skins/titles/etc. Also I'd imagine the cosmetic stuff to a certain extent. I really doubt that a chassis is going to be used as a basis for exclusivity.

[LackofCertainty]

Scar, on 05 March 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

It changes nothing - 12 average Atlas' will waste 12 Commandos in every day. So, you 'argument' means nothing.


It's as idiotic sentence as i sasy you're hot about LoL. WoT is just closer than any other MMO(RPG especially) to MWO. Do you have the problems with that fact? It's only yours.

And? In random 12 Commandos will never be stronger than 12 Atlas'. That's why i'm against cheap Assaults.

And you have fully confirmed that you're a little naive school-girl. But you forget about the main - realistic side. And i'm pretty optimistic in that part, because i know that dev's aren't fools and understand that every statement has a particular conditions to be the truth, and they won't let the game to be ruined by cheap or even free Assaults. Period.

I can't believe how angry being called a humbug makes you. I mean humbug is barely even an insult. It's on par with calling someone a fancy gentleman. XD

No one ever said 12 commandos will beat 12 atlases. What we're trying to say is that a mixed team covering the different roles will stomp a team of 12 atlases. You're either being facetious when you suggest 12 commandos is what I'm arguing for, or you really don't get what my point is. *shrug*

The simple difference of scout mechs being able to damage assault mechs makes a world of difference if you think about it for a second. If a heavy tank sees a scout in WoT, the scout can roll around behind them, but it doesn't matter, because the scout won't do any real damage even when hitting a heavy tank's vulnerable spot. (at least as far as I played in WoT) In MWO if your assault completely ignores a light, then that light will be able to circle around and start pounding your rear armor for significant damage. Not to mention the hell that a scout's ECM could play on the assaults.

As I understand it, the devs want all mechs to be equally viable in a match. I'll trust their word on that instead of immediately complaining about balance problems for a game I've never played before. : P

Also, I've decided that I'm going to call you a fancy gentleman from now on, Scar.


Edit: Yay dev response while I was making this message.

Edited by LackofCertainty, 05 March 2012 - 01:04 PM.

[Creedious]

I think we should start off with C bills and have to do objectives to get huge bonuses to achieve access to better mechs :3

[Halfinax]

Scar, on 05 March 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

It changes nothing - 12 average Atlas' will waste 12 Commandos in every day. So, you 'argument' means nothing.

Providing the 12 Commandos try to go toe to toe fact to face with the Atlases, and all players are equally skilled yes the Atlases will win every time.

Scar, on 05 March 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

It's as idiotic sentence as i'd say you're hot about LoL or any other mentioned game. WoT is just closer to MWO than any other MMO(RPG especially). Do you have the problems with that fact? It's only yours.

LoL isn't an RPG. Yes, WoT is more simulation, but we aren't discussing what type of game here. LoL pay scheme is what was being discussed, and it works very well and could easily translate to MW:O. This has nothing to do with the gameplay. Quit getting that confused.

Scar, on 05 March 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

And? In random 12 Commandos will never be stronger than 12 Atlas'. That's why i'm against cheap Assaults.

Player skill determines that. Not the chassis. No one is saying that Atlases should have the same price point as a Commando, but keep the prices canonical for C-bills, and the real world cost proportionate to that. E.g. A Commando would be 3 USD (2 million C-bills), and an Atlas would be 15 USD (10 million C-bills).

Scar, on 05 March 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

And you have fully confirmed that you're a little naive school-girl. But you forget about the main - realistic side. And i'm pretty optimistic in that part, because i know that dev's aren't fools and understand that every statement has a particular conditions to be the truth, and they won't let the game to be ruined by cheap or even free Assaults from the start. Period.

Both of you need to quit the name calling it has nothing to do with the conversation.

[CeeKay Boques]

Garth Erlam, on 05 March 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

A 'Mechs class is not the key determining factor in how it functions. It's the usage of. You wouldn't use a Dragon the same way you used a Catapult, right?

I don't know... in other Mech games I was able to make many of my mechs have a fun 1 Light Gauss, 1 Large Laser, 1 Lrm 20. Maybe... maybe I might drive them same. How much customization we talkin' 'bout?

Quote

Three things:
1) That could be true in some cases - all I can say is we've proven in tests that even 1 v 1 a Jenner can beat an Atlas.
2) In your example, the problems aren't the assault 'Mechs, but the Scout 'Mechs.
3) I think the chances of 12 Atlas' vs. 12 Commandos is so vanishingly remote that the idea it needs to be balanced around that possibility is a misuse of resources.

Can A certain pilot beat always an Atlas? Is a certain Atlas pilot unbeatable?

[Thomas Hogarth]

LackofCertainty, on 05 March 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

People who want to spend thousands of dollars on a F2P game will find a way. You don't need to do anything other than release good content to get them. Plus you have to look at the number you can sell. If you make a 100$ mech, sure, you will sell a few of them. If you make that same mech cost 20$, you can still maintain the prestige of "this is -waaaay- more expensive than the 4$ skins I bought" but at the same time you sell many many many more of them. I guess if they wanted to be really insidious about it, they could release every mech at 100$ and then after a week add it into the game for in-game currency and drop the cost down to something resonable, but that kind of customer abuse really hurts a company's goodwill.

I don't get how this is in reply to my post. I'm stating that the extremely rare chassis, which are no more or less powerful than others that are commonly available, should cost a load of real-world cash. You still have the other 'Mechs, which are more than capable of defeating them(especially the ANH... thing is made of paper armor), and they'd be free. You're saying that if the costs are lowered, they would be more common.

Well no kidding.

As I stated, that's the whole POINT behind making them so expensive, so that they're rare. I'm not looking at this as someone who'd want to buy one, but rather someone who wants to be excited and surprised when I see one. I want them to be rare. Like they are in canon.

TheRulesLawyer, on 05 March 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

Trouble is then you get in the business of selling power which is something the devs are supposedly trying to avoid. The rare stuff is going to be the Loyalty point based skins/titles/etc. Also I'd imagine the cosmetic stuff to a certain extent. I really doubt that a chassis is going to be used as a basis for exclusivity.

As I said, there's nothing stopping any of the free 'Mechs from toppling these rare 'Mechs. Again, there should be plenty of free options that are as powerful or more powerful than the rare chassis. I'll use the ANH anology again. IMP/MAD-II? Either are well-countered by an Atlas, Steiner-model Banshee, or even a Battlemaster.

I can kind of see where you're coming from with the advanced tech variants costing real-world money. Frankly, I'm not married to the idea. If they were cripplingly expensive to operate, and more-or-less incapable of turning a profit, that would also make them rare. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I like that idea more.

Do keep in mind however that advanced tech != more powerful. There are plenty of 3050 refits and new variants that simply suck compared to their oldtech counterparts.

[Scar]

Garth Erlam, on 05 March 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

The way one balances an Atlas isn't to make it's guns worse, or to only allow one Atlas, it's to make sure that other 'Mech chassis can defeat them.

Hmmm, the question here is - with what chance in the total statistic?

Quote

A 'Mechs class is not the key determining factor in how it functions. It's the usage of. You wouldn't use a Dragon the same way you used a Catapult, right?

Agreed. Different classes and even different setups inside one class/chassis - are demanding their own tactics.

Quote

1) That could be true in some cases - all I can say is we've proven in tests that even 1 v 1 a Jenner can beat an Atlas.

Agreed. In every game it's possible to kill a heavy guy by a little boy. But what about statistics in total?I really fear the hordes of Heavies on the field, because i'm pretty sure - even Commando won't manage to outrun the shell of AC'20 on his tail. Colt is a Colt - firepower is a firepower, especially in Random.

Quote

2) In your example, the problems aren't the assault 'Mechs, but the Scout 'Mechs.

Emmm...didn't get it. I really can't imagine what can the Scouts do against the brute force of Assaults...only if those Scouts didn't learned some super-duper-ninja-kungfu. Of course, it's depending from the victory condition, battleground and many other factors...but...

Quote

3) I think the chances of 12 Atlas' vs. 12 Commandos is so vanishingly remote that the idea it needs to be balanced around that possibility is a misuse of resources.

I REALLY hope so. And that's what i'm talking about - no need to balance the classes for the random matches, Scout is a pure Team Class, it's a very valuable and key class in the well coordinated team. But at the same time it's very vulnerable to any mis-coordination.

Garth Erlam, on 05 March 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

Not to mention with the proper modules, etc, balance can also be maintained, but well put Orzorn.

I understand your thought process Scar, and as a fellow S.T.A.L.K.E.R. I approve of thinking of alternatives.

Thank you, sir. I really appreciate your kind words and attention to my posts. And I really understand that for native English speaker it might be very hard to understand many of them.

Edited by Scar, 05 March 2012 - 01:54 PM.

[LackofCertainty]

Thomas Hogarth, on 05 March 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

I don't get how this is in reply to my post. I'm stating that the extremely rare chassis, which are no more or less powerful than others that are commonly available, should cost a load of real-world cash. You still have the other 'Mechs, which are more than capable of defeating them(especially the ANH... thing is made of paper armor), and they'd be free. You're saying that if the costs are lowered, they would be more common.

Well no kidding.

As I stated, that's the whole POINT behind making them so expensive, so that they're rare. I'm not looking at this as someone who'd want to buy one, but rather someone who wants to be excited and surprised when I see one. I want them to be rare. Like they are in canon.

I'm trying to point out the business concerns of it. Super simplifying it: If you make the skin cost 100$, you sell 5 of them and you make 500$ If you make that same skin cost 20$ instead, then you can sell 30 of them and make 600$

Super-duper-ultra-hyper-mega expensive stuff will still sell, but only to a tiny tiny fraction of the playerbase.


Making money is an important concern, because if the game doesn't make money then sooner or later it'll die.

Edited by LackofCertainty, 05 March 2012 - 01:58 PM.

[Thomas Hogarth]

LackofCertainty, on 05 March 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

I'm trying to point out the business concerns of it. Super simplifying it: If you make the skin cost 100$, you sell 5 of them and you make 500$ If you make that same skin cost 20$ instead, then you can sell 30 of them and make 600$

Super-duper-ultra-hyper-mega expensive stuff will still sell, but only to a tiny tiny fraction of the playerbase.


Making money is an important concern, because if the game doesn't make money then sooner or later it'll die.

Of course, but it's more complicated than that. There should also be many more items/chassis that you can purchase for lower prices. Those would be the breadwinners, while the expensive 'Mechs would remain rare.

Consider the automotive model: You have lots of reasonably priced vehicles, and a handful of expensive supercars, all carrying the same badge. Just because everyone cannot afford the supercars does not mean the supercars themselves don't contribute to the brand - quite the opposite.

[Insidious Johnson]

LackofCertainty, on 05 March 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

I'm trying to point out the business concerns of it. Super simplifying it: If you make the skin cost 100$, you sell 5 of them and you make 500$ If you make that same skin cost 20$ instead, then you can sell 30 of them and make 600$

Super-duper-ultra-hyper-mega expensive stuff will still sell, but only to a tiny tiny fraction of the playerbase.


Making money is an important concern, because if the game doesn't make money then sooner or later it'll die.

We've been marching steadily towards the death of this game since its inception. That is the way of things. Be sure to enjoy the ride or you've missed the point.

[Halfinax]

There is absolutely no practical reason that they should ever make any chassis/variant/skin as outlandishly expensive as you are suggesting Thomas. It would turn people off especially if they perceive the super expensive 'Mechs as better. It could give a sense of P2W, and what's more no 'Mech should be available as real currency only.

[Armored Yokai]

my guess is
that for house steiner they should have atlases given to them on the first round because that sounds more realistic

Edited by Cementblade, 05 March 2012 - 08:23 PM.

[LackofCertainty]

Thomas Hogarth, on 05 March 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

Of course, but it's more complicated than that. There should also be many more items/chassis that you can purchase for lower prices. Those would be the breadwinners, while the expensive 'Mechs would remain rare.

Consider the automotive model: You have lots of reasonably priced vehicles, and a handful of expensive supercars, all carrying the same badge. Just because everyone cannot afford the supercars does not mean the supercars themselves don't contribute to the brand - quite the opposite.

Super expensive automotives are more expensive because they generally come with a lot of extra wonderful bits that cost a lot more to make. There's a difference in cost between making a super-luxury sports car and a random mini-van. There's very little difference in cost between making a model for a urbanmech and making a model for a behemoth. Sure, charge a bit more for the skins that have that little bit extra added on them, but I think it's a little silly to jump all the way to 100$.

Also, note that I keep focusing on skins/aesthetics instead of mechs themselves. I don't want -any- mech to be unavailable for C-bills in game. I don't care if it's similar to a mech that already exists. Similar is just enough room to fit in "slightly better than" which is the pitfall of F2P.

[Garth Erlam]

I'll do what I can to explain here, Scar:

1) There's no way, ever, we'll have exact 50/50 matches between 'Mechs. It is never going to happen, and has never happened in any game ever (including Chess)

2) The idea is to balance the classes as much as is possible. IE. yes most of the time an Atlas will beat a Commando 1v1, but as long as it isn't 70% of the time, say, it's more fun. IE. an Atlas beats a Commando 60% of the time, but a Commando beats, I dunno, a Jenner 60% of the time, and a Jenner beats an Atlas 60% of the time. Something like that is more what I'm talking about.

3) I understand that 'firepower is firepower', but consider the methods of using them. A guy with a rocket launcher has a lot of firepower, but the sniper who takes him out in one shot has much less - yet he still killed him. The idea is that the different 'roles' work together to prevent one from being superior. So Sure 12 atlas' is strong, but so is 12 Centurions, or 12 Jenners, etc. However as I said, the chance of a team being entirely one 'Mech is going to be super low. And I think you'll find that newer, less experienced players will assume an Atlas is the best, only to die to a Jenner and then reconsider

And for the 'what will stuff cost' people - nothing has been carved into stone yet, however I can promise we are not planning to do some weird method where a kick-ass variant of a 'Mech can only be purchased with real money.