31 replies to this topic

[Halfinax]

I like the convergence system that has been described, but I would also like the option to use a manual-on-the-fly convergence. Instead of converging on whatever my reticule(s) was last pointing at I could set the convergence range to my liking.

Obviously it would provide me with an advantage if I know the approximate range my target is going to be at, but it puts me at a disadvantage when an opponent appears suddenly at a range that is significantly closer or further than my convergence is set at. Their convergence will tune in automatically and I'll have to furiously try and determine their range as I compensate.

I don't know if anyone else likes the idea, but I would find it more preferable for myself. I have no idea how difficult a feature like this would be to implement.


This is not about TT vs Video game rules. This is for suggesting an alternative to the already announced automatic weapons convergence system.

Edited by Halfinax, 08 March 2012 - 07:12 PM.

[wwiiogre]

no and hell no

chris

[TheRulesLawyer]

Yah, no. This is already too pinpoint aim for my preference. Manual settings you might as well just have pinpoint aim and chuck the game in the trash already.

[Halfinax]

How would me having to manually set my convergence range be more accurate than someone whose convergence range is being adjusted to the exact range of their target?

To be honest I'd rather they went purely with manual convergence range than self adjusting ultimately ppa system. With manual convergence you would have to pre-plan for engagements and adjusting to unexpected danger close engagements would be more difficult to pull off.

[CoffiNail]

Okay... I want to know how this is pinpoint aiming? Go play MWLL which does not have any weapon convergence, it is more 'pinpoint' and only the most twitchy of pilots can hit the same spot every shot, hell even then they often cannot.

Your mech is moving, their mech is moving, your cockpit is bobbing, there are hills, dips, and obstacles in the way. It is, move your mouse to where you want to shoot, but that no way means you are doing ALL the damage to one pin point spot on the opposing mech.

OT

I actually love the idea of manually setting convergence. I would think it should take a second for the weapons to reajust after you deactivate manual convergence, to give it a disadvantage. I mean if I know a jenner is going to run past down a street, and the street is 500m away, but my convergence is at 700m, I would like to set it up for where i know the enemy will be running at. Though it should take a second or half a second for the system to switch to manual and back to automatic when done.

[AlanEsh]

I can see how some won't like this idea -- It allows you to pop out from behind your building, shoot that Atlas which you KNOW is 200m away, and roll back without waiting for auto convergence.

Personally, I'm ok with that.

[Leetskeet]

TheRulesLawyer, on 08 March 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

Yah, no. This is already too pinpoint aim for my preference. Manual settings you might as well just have pinpoint aim and chuck the game in the trash already.

Man, all you old BT players and your "preferences" about mechs not being able to aim for **** and having just as good of a chance to shoot an Atlas' big toe as you do to shoot the forehead.

It's like you have this idea that weapons shoot half-sideways and bullets curve. Get out of your tabletop shell and realize damage randomly spread over a mech because it worked well in a turn based tabletop setting.

When you're in the cockpit of a mech you're going to have a HUD and controls that at the very least point your weapons where you want them to point. At that point you have movement,shaking, and convergence of the arms to take into account, but the weapons are going to shoot straight. If you take the shot early you may end up hitting two separate torsos, but the weapons are going to shoot where they're pointed.

Get over this random hit location bullshit.

Edited by Leetskeet, 08 March 2012 - 02:50 PM.

[Frantic Pryde]

I'm as anti-pinpoint as the next grognard and I really like the sound of this. Its a cool option I thinks.

[Lycan]

Leetskeet, on 08 March 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

Man, all you old BT players and your "preferences" about mechs not being able to aim for **** and having just as good of a chance to shoot an Atlas' big toe as you do to shoot the forehead.

It's like you have this idea that weapons shoot half-sideways and bullets curve. Get out of your tabletop shell and realize damage randomly spread over a mech because it worked well in a turn based tabletop setting.

When you're in the cockpit of a mech you're going to have a HUD and controls that at the very least point your weapons where you want them to point. At that point you have movement,shaking, and convergence of the arms to take into account, but the weapons are going to shoot straight. If you take the shot early you may end up hitting two separate torsos, but the weapons are going to shoot where they're pointed.

Get over this random hit location bullshit.

Man all you MW video game players that think you should be able to point all your weapons at an Atlas' left eye socket and blow its head back to the clan home worlds need to check your attitudes.

You need to get out of your "FPS twitch game" shell and understand where the IP and basis for MW/Battletech is coming from. Should the Video game follow the exact same rules as the TT? Probably not as things don't really translate.

But what really doesn't translate is that you want to be able to drop your target reticle on any portion of a mech and have all your weapons hit that exact spot. What you don't seem to get, or just don't care about, is that since this game is based off the TT game, that mechanic doesn't work because armor values were based on the fact that every single weapon on mech wouldn't hit that exact same location.

You need to get over your "you tabletop oldtimers need to get with the times" bullshit and actually listen to the complaints about precision aiming and not immediately fly off the handle when you don't seem to actually comprehend what the "oldtimers" concerns are all about.

Edited by Lycan, 08 March 2012 - 06:46 PM.

[wwiiogre]

+ 1 to what Lycan just said

chris

[Leetskeet]

Lycan, on 08 March 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

Man all you MW video game players that think you should be able to point all your weapons at an Atlas' left eye socket and low its head back to the clan home worlds need to check your attitudes.

You need to get out of your "FPS twitch game" lol shell and understand where the IP and basis for MW/Battletech is coming from. Should the Video game follow the exact same rules as the TT? Probably not as things don't really translate.

But what really doesn't translate is that you want to be able to drop your target reticle on any portion of a mech and have all your weapons hit that exact spot. What you don't seem to get, or just don't care about, is that since this game is based off the TT game, that mechanic doesn't work because armor values were based on the fact that every single weapon on mech wouldn't hit that exact same location. An entire semi-paragraph about something I never even said

You need to get over your "your tabletop oldtimers need to get with the times" bullshit and actually listen to the complaints about precision aiming and not immediately fly off the handle when you don't seem to actually comprehend what the "oldtimers" concerns are all about.

You missed the entire section on

Leetskeet, on 08 March 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

When you're in the cockpit of a mech you're going to have a HUD and controls that at the very least point your weapons where you want them to point. At that point you have movement, shaking, and convergence of the arms to take into account, but the weapons are going to shoot straight. If you take the shot early you may end up hitting two separate torsos, but the weapons are going to shoot where they're pointed.

I thought that I was clear enough that the rocking and jarring motion from movement are going to make it difficult to aim, but the weapons go where the reticule points. With how they're handing arm convergence and the likely high difficulty of aiming torso mounted weapons on the move, you probably won't hit the same location repeatedly like a sniper.

The idea that this is "too pinpoint" is absurd and the idea that my Atlas' right arm laser is going to shoot 45 degrees to the right and miss just because the tabletop is balanced around random hit locations doesn't make it an even slightly plausible concept for a simulation where you're actually piloting the mech. The arms lagging behind a bit and trying to converge on the target while the torso moves? Great Idea. Weapons firing in random directions on a walking super tank? Bad idea.

Edited by Leetskeet, 08 March 2012 - 05:30 PM.

[Halfinax]

I think you guys may have missed the whole point of manual convergence. First off the devs have already said that the guns will be pinpoint accurate once they automatically converge on the target. I would personal better enjoy being able to set my own convergence rather than some automatic system, even though I firmly believe it would actually make me less accurate than the automatic convergence system, but with the upside that I could preplan my engagement range if I know the approximate range my target is at.

With manual convergence I won't be as accurate at continuously adjusting convergence as the auto converge system when my target is moving towards or away from me. I personally am against the ppa system at all, and have been an advocate against it from the get go, but since there is no avoiding it I would simply like a system that feels more intuitive to me while also allowing me to determine the range that I will initiate combat at.

This has nothing to do with TT vs Video Games. Nothing to do with twitch vs randomizer. It is about seeing what the system that is proposed is, and asking for an option to use this alternate system if we so choose.

[wwiiogre]

exactly where did the dev's say weapons would be pin point accurate after convergence?

chris

[Exploding Boy]

Nah.

I'd rather have convergence be sped up or made more accurate by improving your pilot rank over time or shoving in a TC.

I do get where others are coming from though...

[Halfinax]

wwiiogre, on 08 March 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

exactly where did the dev's say weapons would be pin point accurate after convergence?

chris

It was in the thread in General Discussion about the teaser trailer. I can't seem to locate the thread, but pretty sure it was Bryan Eckman that revealed that little tidbit about the convergence ultimately coming down to PPA.

[Lycan]

Leetskeet, on 08 March 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

You missed the entire section on


I thought that I was clear enough that the rocking and jarring motion from movement are going to make it difficult to aim, but the weapons go where the reticule points. With how they're handing arm convergence and the likely high difficulty of aiming torso mounted weapons on the move, you probably won't hit the same location repeatedly like a sniper.

The idea that this is "too pinpoint" is absurd and the idea that my Atlas' right arm laser is going to shoot 45 degrees to the right and miss just because the tabletop is balanced around random hit locations doesn't make it an even slightly plausible concept for a simulation where you're actually piloting the mech. The arms lagging behind a bit and trying to converge on the target while the torso moves? Great Idea. Weapons firing in random directions on a walking super tank? Bad idea.

The semi-paragraph was written as en explanation on why the TT's you're bashing don't want/like pin-point accuracy. But it seems like you missed the point, again.

And I didn't miss it. I just didn't touch on it because you didn't bother to try and understand where some of us TT's are coming from, so why should I give you the courtesy you won't extend to others?

Then reason you seem to think it's "absurd" that your Atlas' arm laser can hit any location other than what you aiming is it because, and I'm going out on a limb here, I doubt you've ever played the TT. You come from an era of MW games that are FPS/Twitch based so you don't have anything else to go on other than that. In all the MW's video games, you hit what you're target reticle was over. There were no hit location roles because, as you say, it's a video game and that kind of randomness doesn't translate well to that type of medium.The problem, and I'll point it out again for you, is that the armor your shooting at, was developed for a game where that kind of accuracy wasn't possible. And the creators of the various MW incarnations didn't take into account that those armor values, values that they lifted directly from the TT game, couldn't withstand that kind of punishment.

And as for your last line about random firing in a walking super talk being a bad idea? Obviously it wasn't that bad of an idea since the TT game was popular enough that it spawn the video games.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Exactly. You need to have the TT level of accuracy because otherwise it breaks the TT armor system people are using. Armor values need to be increased heavily to have the level of survivability you should have. FWIW things don't have to happen exactly like they do in the TT but it does give you the general performance envelope. It also goes against canon to make fire that accurate and makes future upgrades like pulse weapons and targeting computers of questionable use.

We keep going over and over this arguement. It really comes down to you can have battletech, or you can have hyper accuracy. You can't have both. Mechwarrior is a battletech product no matter how much people want to pretend it is not related.

[CoffiNail]

This is turning in to a TT vs MW argument. Not sure how much I really want to bother because since Oct31 and this site launching I have tossed in to a few of these.

Edited by CoffiNail, 08 March 2012 - 06:59 PM.

[Halfinax]

This is not for arguing TT vs VIdeo Game mechanics. This thread is suggesting an alternative to the already announced weapons convergence system.

[wwiiogre]

still no and hell no, maybe when you get your advanced clan targeting computers you can have this feature

chris