23 replies to this topic

[MaddMaxx]

My take would be that the default 10 HS's built in to the Engine itself would offset both walking and or running movement generated heat. Movement Heat levels could be rated based on the increment of 10. Example: Walking is 3(30%), Striding is 6(60%) and running is the full 10(100%) (with the the Internal 10 HS's covering that generated Heat.

Then when JJ's and or Weapons fire are added, they would be considered additional/external sources of Heat and as such require the addition of sufficent HS's to compensate for the Heat they generated and subsequent dissipation rate.

After that, any and all damage taken/applied to the HS's, starting with the external or additional HS's working inwards to the Internal (Engine based) HS's, Heat dissipation would be adversely affect a Mech's HS dissipation rate.

The severity of that damage "penalty" (perhaps HS's could be deteriorated over time) could be determined via Testing (Alpha or Beta)

Thoughts?

Edited by MaddMaxx, 08 March 2012 - 04:40 PM.

[CeeKay Boques]

Sure, but just because the engine has 10 heatsinks, and that makes up for it, doesn’t mean that the heat of running should be incorporated.

Lets say that walk heat was 6, Run heat is 8, and we have 10 engine heat sinks. I have 5 additional heat sinks for my weapons.

Running all day long cause NO problem. Constant 8 heat, 15 Heat to get rid of it. Bar stays in the blue eternally.

(for those of you not liking the small numbers, pretend they’re kelvins on your Mech heat scale)


Now, I fire two PPC at 20 heat, While running.

That’s 20 Heat, + 8 for running, - 15 Heat Sinks. My heat spikes to +13.


What rate do I lose that while running? Lets say its per 3 second.

+ 8 for running, - 15 Heatsinks = -7 per 3 seconds.

I should be back to 0 in 6 seconds. If I were to walk, it would be 6, so 9 per second, and I would be back to 0 in 4 seconds.

See? Why ignore it?

[wwiiogre]

why not say use canon and that walking is one heat and running is two heat and jumping is a minimum of 3 heat plus another heat for each measurement of 30 meters over the first 90 meters traveled in the jump.

hmmm that would mean everyone would know how it works cause it has always worked that way instead of making up a whole new system

chris

Edited by wwiiogre, 08 March 2012 - 04:44 PM.

[2bad]

I think running should generate SOME heat (more than the heatsinks can handle? maybe, maybe not)

I would love to see a scout / fast mech running away from an Atlas at full speed only to shutdown from overheating!
One more kill for that big guy!

Another layer of strategy to keep in mind.

[MaddMaxx]

It seems that perhaps the built in Engine HS's do not contribute to the overall Heat dissipation of the systems in the external areas of the Mech. The Engine is center core, it should not extract Heat from weapons fired from the arms or high torso areas, as an example. Perhaps center Torso based weapons could be affected, but if the Engine takes up most of their dissipation rate, then little would be left over and as such most of that Heat would be considered as excess.

TLDR: How do use force a player to use HS's when they should? Make all Heat generated by any additional weapons or systems (JJ's) require additional HS's to properly compensate.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 08 March 2012 - 04:48 PM.

[wwiiogre]

friction, hmmm lots of tons of metal moving real fast generates heat

chris

[TheRulesLawyer]

Walking and running should generate heat, but I don't think we need it to be anywhere near the full compliment of basic integrated heatsinks. That would break many canon mechs. I think we need to think more of spike heat than absolute numbers generated for the RT conversion.

[Randal Waide]

Yes. If you fire all of your weapons and jump, sure it can.
Heat is part of the gig. Excess heat occurs when a pilot pushes the envelope, either in panic, overconfidence or impatience.

Edited by Randal Waide, 08 March 2012 - 07:04 PM.

[Siilk]

Walking/running should generate some heat, that normally could be negated by internal heatsinks. But in more pressing conditions, i.e. when high-heat weapons are used, it would slower the heat dissipation. In other words, walking/running would not overheat you, but if you want to dissipate heat faster, you would want to slow down or even come to a full stop.

BTW, JJs could and would overheat you, if you'll use them excessively.

2bad, on 08 March 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

I would love to see a scout / fast mech running away from an Atlas at full speed only to shutdown from overheating!
One more kill for that big guy!

I think this is done quite elegantly In MWLL. Running at top speed would not overheat you. Using MASC, on the other hand, generates substantial amount of heat in MWLL, which would overheat you rather fast, even without any additional heat sources, especially if you're using a low-heatsink mech. Now this is not 100% canon, but it works out well for game balance.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Siilk, on 09 March 2012 - 01:24 AM, said:

BTW, JJs could and would overheat you, if you'll use them excessively.

Are there actually any canon mechs that can overheat on JJ use alone? I mean you'd need 11 jump with SHS. I'm not sure that's even possible without and XL engine, and then likely you'd have DHS and need 21 jump.

[Victor Morson]

Of course walking and running should add heat. As pointed out, heat sinks are enough to soak everything heat wise from movement unless they are damaged severely; so the impact is really speeding how fast you cool down from weapons fire to some degree.

I do admit I like how MASC is a heat operated system in MWLL. If MASC makes an appearance in MWO down the line, it's an interesting option to consider rather than the concept of "it may suddenly lock up your legs at any time and effectively kill you."

[Agent CraZy DiP]

Environmental Effects. That is all.

[Siilk]

TheRulesLawyer, on 09 March 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

Are there actually any canon mechs that can overheat on JJ use alone? I mean you'd need 11 jump with SHS. I'm not sure that's even possible without and XL engine, and then likely you'd have DHS and need 21 jump.

Again, I'm judging by MWLL experience, which I consider best sim BT implementation to date(I still wait to lay my hands on MWO to say if it surpasses MWLL). In there, you probably wouldn't explode of overheating just by JJing, but it could put you in redline state, especially, if you were moderately hot before. This, along with JJ-induced reticle shake, plays out quite nicely, balancing jump-sniping, especially with energy-based weapons.

Edited by Siilk, 10 March 2012 - 12:32 AM.

[Beo Wulf]

Movement heat doesn't maker sense, engines today are built to dump heat and opperate at full without over heating unless a malfunction occurs, damage, or it is taken out of its intended opperating use. I don't see how a mech with known heat problems, weapons, would not have engine heat properly taken care of.

Jump jets actually dump heat, the idea is that its not a rocket or fire coming from a thruster but more of compressed exhaust. I could be wrong but I'm pressure thats what I read. Even if it is a thruster that runs off combustion, mos tof the heat would be outside the mech with very little, negligent, heat being transfered back to the mech.

As for a game, this just adds another burden to the player. The game is supposed to be primarily about mech combat, weapon heat helps add another element to fighting but movement heat, while adding during fighting, is just a built in problem fo no real reason.

Lastly, heat in mech games has always been laughable in regards to firing a weapon. Peripheral weapons: arms or external mounts, would't effect core temp much at all yet all weapons have raised heat regardless of where they are. Adding heat realistically would make it hardly noticable and most of us have come to appreciate this element so the best way I can see to view heat is: the reactor generates energy to move the mech, sustainable, and the extra burden placed on it would be from firing the weapons casuing excess heat and heat build up. In other words if you really want movement heat, a mech standing still or moving slowly would be under the engine's designed heat capacity so you could fire more/faster and while moving up to full speed puts things at normal expected use with weapons added.

The only logical implication of concidering heat from movement would be to make the heat less when moving slow, but no increase to heat when oppering at full speed. This is different than redlining your car for long periods of time, just incase people are going to start the inane car-mech comparisons.

[TimberJon]

This should maybe be a poll because the Devs pay attention to numbers and browsing a poll gives em a better idea of how the community is swaying.

I vote no, but based on your wording. Your mech should always be at around say... 5-8% on the heat bar. Unless its really cold (frozen planet / winter), raining or you're in water.

It shouldn't create excess heat and should not accumulate, even when running uphill and everything has to work a little harder = increased heat output.

[TimberJon]

@ Beo Wulf.

I just want to point out that a 'Mech circulates coolant throughout its internals. So it you fire weapons the coolant soaks the heat and increases the ambient temp throughout. By spreading the load all the components and all the heat sinks / radiators / chillers / heat exchangers, etc... Work together to lower the heat. It also would be ventilating air as much as possible with basic filtration from the lowest point much like our PC's with top-end fans today.

So if your PPC is melting in one arm, it will cause an increase in heat in the torso. Sorry all TT rules aside.

Edited by TimberJon, 10 March 2012 - 12:54 PM.

[Beo Wulf]

Yeah i was going off how the real world deals with heated components, I didn't want to get into the implications of a sinlge heat removal system, the coolant. Basically if the heat isn't delt with compartimentally the heat of the mech would never get to a dangerous level before single systems would, the wepons, would be destroyed.

So thats why I made the engine creates heat example to make the method of heat that is currently in mech make any sense at all. Computers are different, size is a huge reason why they usually have heat dissipation systems that cover everything.

As for your ppc melting an arm statement, again spacing says the torso would be fine. If you had coolant then that system would have been destroyed ruining the mech wide system... So yeah thats why I'm talking generally because i'd have to write a dissertation on how wrong the heat systems have been portrayed.

[Strum Wealh]

I would vote in favor of all forms of movement generating some heat.

My proposal would be as follows:

Under "standard day" conditions and use of the BT heat scale:

• Walking at up to cruise speed (approximately two-thirds of maximum speed) could generate heat at an average rate of 0.01 units of heat per second for each 10% of the BattleMech's throttle setting.
  
• Trotting/jogging faster than cruise speed to running at maximum speed could generate heat at an average rate of 0.02 units of heat per second for each 10% of the BattleMech's throttle setting.
  
• Jump jets could have a relatively high "rev-up"/activation heat generation (say, three units of heat) as well as generating additional heat (say, an average rate of 0.1 units of heat per second per jump jet) over the course of continued use.

• Each standard heat sink (SHS) should be able to dissipate 0.1 units of heat per second under standard day conditions.
  
• Each double heat sink (DHS) should be able to dissipate 0.2 units of heat per second under standard day conditions.
  
• Environmental effects (ambient temperature and humidity, atmospheric composition and pressure (or lack thereof), walking through flame, and so on) should affect the effectiveness of the heat sinks.
  
• Any 'Mech must hace its temperature reach at least 5.0 units of heat and remain there for an extended period (less than or equal to ~10 seconds) to even start to notice any effects, with progressively higher temperatures having progressively more deleterious effects.
  
• All 'Mechs unavoidably shut down if the temperature remains above 30 units of heat for an extended period (less than or equal to ~10 seconds).

As such, the 10 heat sinks that come with the engine should be able to dissipate an average of 1.0 units of heat per second (if SHS) to 2.0 units of heat per second (if DHS) - easily enough to deal with any heat generated from basic movement by itself.

Though, where the additional heat would come into play would be where one is firing weapons while also moving (walking, running, and/or jumping), where a few extra units of heat can make the difference between being okay and shutting down or having one's ammunition cook-off or otherwise sustaining damage.

I feel that it adds to the game by enforcing and rewarding better heat management and greater focus thereon (relative to other MW titles) as well as somewhat working against the majority of would-be energy-weapon-heavy boats by limiting the number of weapons and additional items and/or the amount of armor carried as a result of needing tonnage and volume to mount additional heat sinks (in much the same way that needing to allocate tonnage and internal space for more ammunition works against some ballistics and missile boats).

Your thoughts?

[TimberJon]

Beo Wulf, on 10 March 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

As for your ppc melting an arm statement, again spacing says the torso would be fine.

Thats my fault. By melting I meant "very hot" or hot enough to practically boil the coolant in that arm. It would then circulate through the system and heat it all up a bit. But a 'Mech is rarely only firing a single weapon at a time. So add up heat generated by each arm, the torso, and any other peripherals and combined you have enough to tax the heat sinks. As portrayed in the novels, they are always cooking in their cockpits and sweating bullets. That's not just from reactor heat.

[TimberJon]

Strum Wealh, on 10 March 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

I would vote in favor of all forms of movement generating some heat.

My proposal would be as follows:

Under "standard day" conditions and use of the BT heat scale:

• Walking at up to cruise speed (approximately two-thirds of maximum speed) could generate heat at an average rate of 0.01 units of heat per second for each 10% of the BattleMech's throttle setting.
  
• Trotting/jogging faster than cruise speed to running at maximum speed could generate heat at an average rate of 0.02 units of heat per second for each 10% of the BattleMech's throttle setting.
  
• Jump jets could have a relatively high "rev-up"/activation heat generation (say, three units of heat) as well as generating additional heat (say, an average rate of 0.1 units of heat per second per jump jet) over the course of continued use.

• Each standard heat sink (SHS) should be able to dissipate 0.1 units of heat per second under standard day conditions.
  
• Each double heat sink (DHS) should be able to dissipate 0.2 units of heat per second under standard day conditions.
  
• Environmental effects (ambient temperature and humidity, atmospheric composition and pressure (or lack thereof), walking through flame, and so on) should affect the effectiveness of the heat sinks.
  
• Any 'Mech must hace its temperature reach at least 5.0 units of heat and remain there for an extended period (less than or equal to ~10 seconds) to even start to notice any effects, with progressively higher temperatures having progressively more deleterious effects.
  
• All 'Mechs unavoidably shut down if the temperature remains above 30 units of heat for an extended period (less than or equal to ~10 seconds).

As such, the 10 heat sinks that come with the engine should be able to dissipate an average of 1.0 units of heat per second (if SHS) to 2.0 units of heat per second (if DHS) - easily enough to deal with any heat generated from basic movement by itself.


Though, where the additional heat would come into play would be where one is firing weapons while also moving (walking, running, and/or jumping), where a few extra units of heat can make the difference between being okay and shutting down or having one's ammunition cook-off or otherwise sustaining damage.

I feel that it adds to the game by enforcing and rewarding better heat management and greater focus thereon (relative to other MW titles) as well as somewhat working against the majority of would-be energy-weapon-heavy boats by limiting the number of weapons and additional items and/or the amount of armor carried as a result of needing tonnage and volume to mount additional heat sinks (in much the same way that needing to allocate tonnage and internal space for more ammunition works against some ballistics and missile boats).

Your thoughts?

It sounds good to me. Control. Variables. I'm not entirely sure that they will try to use the established BT heat scale system for the math behind the scenes though.

All I know is, a 'Mech would be pretty warm at idle. Walking and running would take a while to increase the ambient temp but it would have a low ceiling. It's the firing of weapons mainly that will be contributing to heat levels within the 'Mech. It should not continue to climb without a maximum heat level for each sustained action because that would be unrealistic. Like, "I better not drive more than 100 miles because I will overheat and crack my engine block".

This guy needs a button. buttons? ooohh patches. We need MWO patches to sew/ glue on.