77 replies to this topic

[SnowDragon]

Play ANY form of mechwarrior (Yes, even MW4). Then come back to us and say mech on mech only gets boring. Go on, just try. As said before.

25 years of not getting bored with it.

[Otxoa]

Alecto, for me the charm of MW is both the action (which is hard science fiction AND military simulation) and the VERY rich universe, detailed in novels, sourcebooks and a trillion different other things.

For me it's not so much "I PWNZR yOOr AZZ" ,

as a

"Cho-Sa Otxoa of the Felicitous Seven Company of the Kurita Vanguard has defeated you, mark this day well."

There is no room in the canon for Armored Dinos (not saying it would not be fun, in another venue)

[AIecto]

Thanks very much for all of the posts providing helpful info thus far, or even if you've simply posted a constructive reason why MechW vs. Bioforms should or shouldn't ever happen, which is great!

I've noticed some seem adamant that it should and will never happen; where as some others are referencing notes from the IP to counter the argument suggesting that it could be a possibility. Of course there's the other group (such as myself) who knows little about the IP who simply likes the idea.

Please enlighten me; what's considered the difference between hard and soft canon in the MW IP?


Also note that the original reason I brought this up was because I looked at the game-play footage and thought to myself that the environment looked completely barren, void of life...

I don't think anyone would frown upon at least ambient non-combat critters added to MWO right? To give a little life to the maps we will be playing on, add a little realism, though I could understand a map being completely void of life if there was a reason for it, but surely after a number of weeks, or months of seeing every map void of life would post launch I would expect players to start complaining, then suggesting that ambient non-combat critters be added.

Note: I use the term critter to describe any entity in game that has AI.

(Just as an example, I've been playing STO since launch, that's more than 2 years and even now the majority of the maps in that game are void of ambient life forms which is bad, though they have improved that situation and continue to do so overtime.)


Realism in a game is a total win imo, it just cranks up the immersion factor...

sarna.net/wiki/Category:Alien_species said:

In 1988, game designer Jordan K. Weisman, who created the original BattleTech game and setting, noted in the introduction to the Shrapnel anthology:

"What I wanted was a universe that had a taste of the alien, but did not contain aliens."

Now that was 24 years ago; but times do change, new planets and new species are discovered... New enemies are encountered!

Now I'm sure that mech vs. mech for the lifetime of MWO will no doubt be fun and I look forward to it, but the developer is allowed to extend the IP with their own image provided they stick as close to the IP as possible.

Should mech vs. bioform encounters be added for example via the addition of a single new planet in a future update; then I really don't honestly believe such an addition to the game would be that bad a thing and in fact believe it would benefit the entire community by allowing Piranha-Games the slack it needs to develop new stories, new characters and new maps to a world that already exists.

Not only that, but it would attract new customers and that's a big deal. Should said potential future update ever happen and hard core fans of the IP are upset about it, well they could just avoid that new content and stick to mech vs. mech as they have done in the past, no harm, no foul.

[NeoDac]

There are a very few animals in battletech that can damage a battlemech but there are a very few the problem with making them combatants starting with the rarity and continuing with the fact that all the battles will be against other players and who wants to play a "marginaly" threatening lifeform rather than a mech?

[Strum Wealh]

AIecto, on 14 March 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

Please enlighten me; what's considered the difference between hard and soft canon in the MW IP?

On canon:

Quote

Whatever we establish for research material for the authors is canon.
Currently, that list includes:

• All sourcebooks and novels produced for BattleTech by FASA and Roc in the United States
  
• All sourcebooks and novels produced for Classic BattleTech by FanPro and Roc in the United States
  
• All sourcebooks and novels (including electronic publications, such as BattleCorps) produced by InMediaRes (and its subsidiaries, BattleCorps and Catalyst Game Labs) in the United States
  
• All material produced by WizKids for the MechWarrior: Dark Age/MechWarrior: Age of Destruction game lines

GENERAL INCLUSIVE NOTE: There are a few select instances where a story or article appearing even in these sources may be considered non-canon, but generally this is because the material was in error [...], or it was specifically published as a gag [...].

The list does not include:

• Magazines, even "official" ones such as BattleTechnology, 'Mech, and others
  
• The MechWarrior, MechCommander, and MechAssault video and computer games, as well as the various BattleTech games produced for Nintendo and Sega game systems
  
• The BattleTech cartoon series
  
• The BattleTech comic book series

GENERAL NON-INCLUSIVE NOTE: Despite their non-canonical status, we have not gone into total denial about these sources either, but have simply opted to pick and choose what elements there are "canon" and what are not.

-----

As long as a piece of fluff from an official source (FASA, FanPro, Catalyst, Infocom*, Activision*, Microprose*, Microsoft*) isn't directly contradicted, and makes sense, you can assume it to be part of the shared universe.
(*Fluff from these sources is 'canon' in the sense that the story that takes place in the game happened in canon in the same general broad strokes - Gideon recovered the Chalice from the Matabushi-backed Dark Wing; Jason found the Star League cache and rescued his father, then fought with the Hounds on Luthien; mercenaries helped Carver V become Liberty, FedCom forces on Port Arthur disrupted Smoke Jaguar operations as part of Operation Bird Dog, etc. - but the details are likely to be significantly different than the ones you experienced during your gameplay).

-----

"Apocrypha" are products, or the information contained therein, which are neither clearly canonical nor clearly non-canonical. In a broader sense, "apocryphal" is generally used to describe products that were intended to add to the BattleTech universe, but which do not meet the criteria for canon for one reason or another. Although not recognized as canonical, apocryphal sources are invariably official BattleTech products and were produced under a valid license. Thus, they are the official products referred to in the statement above that the IP owners are "not in total denial about these sources either" and that "fluff from an official source [...] that isn't directly contradicted, and makes sense" can be assumed "to be part of the shared universe".

In particular, it applies to the BattleTech products that were explicitly excluded in the above definition of canon despite being official products. Some apocryphal products (such as the BattleTechnology and StarDate magazines) were even canonical originally, but lost that status later on.

Fans tend to ignore the fact that not all official sources are fully canonical, and often accept and treat apocrypha like fully canonical products.

[ScrewCityChris]

You should check out the old show DinoRiders:

[SnowDragon]

That show was kick ***.

[The Mighty Fafnir]

Orzorn, on 14 March 2012 - 02:15 PM, said:

There are some interesting creatures, such as one (can not remember the name) that appears almost exactly like a dragon, however, they can not live on any other planet due to their very specific living requirements.

The creature is called a Branth.

[cinco]

if you're talking coop versus creatures. i think this is a pretty clever idea.

yes the danger of farming stupid bots is there, but that's a risk worth taking.

[SnowDragon]

Yeah, but even the biggest creature can't take a Flea.

[ArchLurker Chad]

AIecto, on 14 March 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

Now that was 24 years ago; but times do change, new planets and new species are discovered... New enemies are encountered!

Now I'm sure that mech vs. mech for the lifetime of MWO will no doubt be fun and I look forward to it, but the developer is allowed to extend the IP with their own image provided they stick as close to the IP as possible.

Should mech vs. bioform encounters be added for example via the addition of a single new planet in a future update; then I really don't honestly believe such an addition to the game would be that bad a thing and in fact believe it would benefit the entire community by allowing Piranha-Games the slack it needs to develop new stories, new characters and new maps to a world that already exists.

Not only that, but it would attract new customers and that's a big deal. Should said potential future update ever happen and hard core fans of the IP are upset about it, well they could just avoid that new content and stick to mech vs. mech as they have done in the past, no harm, no foul.

The thing is MWO is pretty much exclusively focused on player vs player combat, there won't be a singleplayer campaign even.
All the action is going to be against other players.
I've played my share of WoW and I've done enough grinding to be sick and tired of it. PvE is not something I'm looking for, and I'm guessing the majority of the people in here don't either, at least not in a MechWarrior game.
I honestly can't see where any PvE would fit into the game from what I've seen this far even if they would decide to add bioforms.
Just being jumped by some AI mob bioform while in the middle of a duel would pretty much boil down to being an annoyance for the poor victim. It would be just as annoying as other randomness that I've come to despise in games.

No, if there had to be bioforms vs mechs the bioforms had to be player controlled as well to fit in the game. As of now this is too much of a stretch. The MW franchise is just about to come to life after a long break, and with it will be some much needed and much appreciated innovations that were not seen in previous titles; role warfare is the thing I'm thinking of mostly, but there are more.
PGI is already doing a good job by improving gameplay health and thus the game. And being a simulator/shooter the game is already excitining and new to lots of people that have probably never even played a simulator game before!

Point is the game will be new and exciting enough without adding bioforms or whatnot.
Maybe in the far off future the BattleTech universe have begun to grow stale. But as others have pointed out; there is still much in there that hasn't been seen in the games before that developers could draw from should the game franchise need new innovations.

[metro]

Welcome to MWO Alecto,

Sarna.net.

classicbattletech.com

and the Battletech manuals,tro's and lore are where you need to be learning the ins and outs of Battletech/Mechwarrior.



Keep this thread on topic everyone or click, we're done.

[Strum Wealh]

From the opening post:

AIecto, on 14 March 2012 - 02:09 PM, said:

What I'm imagining in my head are basically alien dinosaurs, armoured and lethal... but also the addition of less formidable lifeforms for the sake of immersion, whether they be birds, fish, bears (you name it) or even intelligent humanoid beings, some of who perhaps are able to set traps for mechs or fight with various weapons.

Also some environments in reality would generally be unstable or simply dangerous. I would like to see the environments in the game (at least at some point, no rush) have tactical advantages and disadvantages. Imagine forcing a mech to the edge of a cliff and then seeing that cliff facing under the weight of the mech give way and the mech fall down.

I would like to see nature come alive and be an aspect of the game that the player should be aware of, high winds, volcanic activity, seismic activity and perhaps even acid rain.

As indicated previously, there are a number of different types of creatures native to the worlds of the BT/MW universe.

However, the only canon instance of sapience ("human-level" intelligence or "the ability of an organism or entity to act with appropriate judgment"; not to be confused with sentience ("the ability to feel, perceive or be conscious, or to have subjective experiences")) in non-human creatures in BT/MW is a race of bird-like beings featured in the novel Far Country.

Given that, the relative fragility of biological entities, and the toughness of 'Mechs, using living beings - even large ones like the Branth and the T-Rex II - as beasts of war in an environment filled with mechanized combat vehicles and BattleMech-caliber weapons is arguably disingenuous, ineffective, suicidal, and inhumane.

That being said, I think having them as simply part of the environmental scenery along with weather and geologic features - assuming doing so does not put too much of a strain on computational resources - would be fine.

Your thoughts?

[Killhunger]

Alecto,
Keep in mind that some of the mech designs were borrowed from the Robotech series....Warhammer, Rifleman etc. One thought I had is imagine that you have the Battletech idea back near it's origin, and it's possible competition being the Japanese mecha designs. One thing that makes Battletech different than some of the existing Japanese concepts at the time is that they are not constantly fighting aliens. Robotech was almost completely about fighting aliens. So it had been done and overdone. Giant robots vs large alien/monsters...the Japanese pretty much own that idea also. Voltron being a well known example.

In my opinion aliens are overdone. I wouldn't be surprised that this had some influence in the Battletech universe's creation.

Just something to think about to possibly explain why Battletech/Mechwarrior is this way.

Also, I want to see mech's explode and take damage. I can see things bleed anytime, there are plenty of games for that.

[Ramrod]

AIecto, on 14 March 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

Now I'm sure that mech vs. mech for the lifetime of MWO will no doubt be fun and I look forward to it, but the developer is allowed to extend the IP with their own image provided they stick as close to the IP as possible.

Emphasis mine. I'm putting this right at the beginning because it directly affects everything else I'm going to quote.

AIecto, on 14 March 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

Now that was 24 years ago; but times do change, new planets and new species are discovered... New enemies are encountered!

MWO is set during a specific, well-documented, iconic era in the BattleTech timeline, and making such drastic alterations to it as adding new enemies would compromise the IP, not enhance it. In fact, for some really, really old timer BTech fans, simply the addition of the Clans in TRO 3050, who are themselves "new enemies", was enough to damage the IP.

AIecto, on 14 March 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

Should mech vs. bioform encounters be added for example via the addition of a single new planet in a future update; then I really don't honestly believe such an addition to the game would be that bad a thing and in fact believe it would benefit the entire community by allowing Piranha-Games the slack it needs to develop new stories, new characters and new maps to a world that already exists.

This game is multiplayer-only, therefore the last sentence invalidates the rest of the paragraph. Simply for argument's sake, I'll address it anyway. The IP is broad enough and deep enough to allow Piranha to make a slew of varied stories and characters without having to change the canon. It would speak more to their talent if they wrote a story that dovetails with the established IP, rather than retconning one of BattleTech's keystones just because they can't fit the triangular block into the circular hole.

AIecto, on 14 March 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

Not only that, but it would attract new customers and that's a big deal. Should said potential future update ever happen and hard core fans of the IP are upset about it, well they could just avoid that new content and stick to mech vs. mech as they have done in the past, no harm, no foul.

You're missing the critical fact that the devs working on this are hardcore fans themselves. They were the ones who declared that they'd be sticking to the canon as closely as possible, as long as it didn't interfere with gameplay. Your suggestions, however, are gameplay elements that interfere with canon. That's kind of the opposite of what they said they intended to do.

As for bringing in new customers, I agree that some sort of PvE would draw more people in. I would love some kind of offline/coop mode. However, I would prefer it to be PvE that fits the canon. Indeed, to suggest that new customers would only (or even mostly) be drawn in by fighting giant creatures with your Mech simply amounts to you projecting your own wishes on the rest of the non-BTech gaming public, which is flat-out ridiculous.

No offense.

Edited by Ramrod, 15 March 2012 - 06:34 AM.

[AIecto]

Thanks for the link to the canon info... I'm not going to quote anyone as there's been quite a number of replies but I'll make this post a generalised response to all who are participating in the thread.  


So I'm now playing MW4 and reading a book I managed to find (I've decided to regularly update my forum profile here to show such actions), still looking for more material and the community here's been a great help, I'll be continuing to dig into the IP, but I will admit that I'll probably play this game casually and possibly never be a big fan, but you never know.

First thing I noticed related to this topic when playing MW4 Mercs was that when I manoeuvred my mech over to a base I could see little 2D humans walking around (thumbs up) and that's exactly what I want to see in MWO. Without little touches like that the realms and immersion factor is lost completely, unless as previously stated there's good reason for no life to be seen.

The next thing I noticed was that when I manoeuvred my mech into the ocean bay, the water covered half my mech but the mech was unaffected. Not a big issue but I think the devs here could really do some amazing things when it comes to mechs vs. Nature and the Environment in MWO.


So Co-Op, PvE and PvP has been brought up and it's been mentioned that MWO will be PvP only, but even PvP has some elements of PvE and every MMO should have the element of Co-Op play or it's not an MMO (this is planned to be a new MMO right?).

I would honestly be a little disappointed to find out MWO would be PvP only and nothing more than that; I don't believe it would be to difficult to merge some elements of story driven PvE into PvP missions. For example a number of cut-scenes could be creates with a little voice over work to set the stage and then the map would load with both friendly, enemy and neutral players, objectives would be set. Perhaps an natural, environmental or human caused  disaster was soon to occur... For example an incoming hurricane, a volcanic eruption, tidal wave or bombs set near an arch-gravity dam, and one group of player mechs must escort a convoy from a base, town or city or be assigned to damage control; while another group of player mechs would be on the offensive taking advantage of the situation or even causing the disaster. Then depending on the outcome as it would be variable due to the human interaction, the end of the mission would result in another cut-scene, but the cut-scene triggered would be one associated with the outcome of the mission. The result would then be story driven PvPvE, which I'm guessing would be a first for the MMO industry, unsure.


Personally I don't feel that "Giant Robots vs. Giant Aliens" ever gets old, but that's not what MW is about but maybe one day a little sprinkle of that added to MWO maybe 2+ years down the road post launch wouldn't be such a bad thing, anyway...

Now sure I do like the idea of "Dino Riders" and massive armoured alien creatures capable of giving a mech a fight to remember but I also respect the IP and other users so I wont be bringing up the suggestion again, but I certainly do hope to see ambient non-combatant critters, whether they be humans or other various creatures.

I brought up the idea that a group of grounded humans could potentially set traps for mechs and someone here asked something along the lines of "How would a human trap a mech?"

Well humans are a very adaptable, creative and smart species, mines could be set down, tow cables used, and they could be using the environment to their advantage, maybe do the old dig a hole and cover it up trick. lol

[EDMW CSN]

Alien life forms a plenty, there is even dino-rider or dragon mounted style infantry if you wanna get to the specifics. Battletech has those AND does ACKNOWLEDGE their existence.

But these creatures are little more than cannon fodder to the metal monsters that we pilot. Metal wins out against flesh and muscle, all the time.

http://www.sarna.net..._Beast_Infantry

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 15 March 2012 - 10:46 AM.

[Ramrod]

AIecto, on 15 March 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

this is planned to be a new MMO right?

Not how you're imagining it, no. It has a persistent galaxy map, but the game is going to play out as 12 vs 12 multiplayer matches. There is no giant persistent world like Azeroth or the like.

AIecto, on 15 March 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

I would honestly be a little disappointed to find out MWO would be PvP only

Then you had better brace yourself, because for the foreseeable future, that's what it is:

Spoiler

Q. Will MechWarrior® Online™ have co-operative gameplay?

A. This is something we wanted to implement, but right now we are going to focus on multiplayer only.

I'm not sure how much you'd researched MWO before posting this thread, cause that's definitely been in the FAQ since before you first posted...

AIecto, on 15 March 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

Personally I don't feel that "Giant Robots vs. Giant Aliens" ever gets old, but that's not what MW is about but maybe one day a little sprinkle of that added to MWO maybe 2+ years down the road post launch wouldn't be such a bad thing, anyway...

Again, you're trying to add something that you want to a universe that has been around for 25+ years, which you have admitted to knowing nothing about. I find it hard to believe that you don't see how weak that position is to argue from. As was mentioned on the first page of this thread, one of the beautiful things about BattleTech is the absence of aliens. Including aliens will not magically make BattleTech better. For the long-time fans, it might even make it worse! The more you post, the more I think you don't actually want to play MechWarrior, but rather turn MechWarrior into Lost Planet.

As for future additions, I'll explain it as concisely as possible. The devs are using a 1:1 timescale, so today is 15th March 3049 in the gameworld. 2+ years down the line, the BattleTech timeline is already well-documented, and guess what? No giant alien monsters. In fact, the timeline is well-documented for the next 90+ years, and guess what? Still no giant alien monsters.

Edited by Ramrod, 15 March 2012 - 10:52 AM.

[EDMW CSN]

Gigaton, on 14 March 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

I'd scan and post the 'mech vs. dino pic, but can't find the book at the moment.

I believe this is the one ?

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 15 March 2012 - 10:52 AM.

[The Bounty Hunter]

The Bounty Hunter thinks the OP Alecto had some really interesting a valid points. Yes the universe does not have any biological life that would be likely combatants in battle, it still brings in interesting ideas of life populating the maps, or things like sink holes which may not be life but are aspects of a planets a pilot needs to be aware of.

And Dinosaurs? Who said dinosaurs? ;-) Two planets, Caph and Farhome both have those real concerns. Now will this / should this be in the game, The Bounty Hunter does not know. What he does know is that for a non MW person, Alecto really brought out some good points and questions. Hopefully something the Devs can chew on and give serious thought to. I already saw one PGI person like the original post.

The Bounty Hunter salutes you Alecto for thinking outside the box and not being the usual stale MW fanboi.