72 replies to this topic

[Sprouticus]

The simple fact is that imobilizing the mech or having it fall over is just not going to be viable. You have to allow for at least SOME movement. Immobilization would mean that you would end up legging just as bad as if ti killed the mech because in a game with very large maps and movement & tactics being vital, being able to leg and freeze one or 2 of the enemy would end up being the be all end all tactic.

The real question is how slow the mech should be after legging. You want it fast enough that legging is not the best option, but slow enough that it imparts SOME advantage to the one who legged him. I am guessing 25-33% would bea good starting number for tests.

You could also make balance harder on a legged mech, increase the knockdown %. Again, this is something you can balance on how much increase the knowndown happens.

One last thing. I would not mind a VERY rare leg being blown off to freeze a mech or even knock them onto the ground. But it should be really rare, like <0.1%. If it is that rare but still occurs, you can chalk it up to bad luck and smile. I could live with that bad luck if the animation was good and the resulting freeze/knock over was an anomaly rather than a tactic.

[DrHat]

Sprouticus, on 17 March 2012 - 07:21 AM, said:

The simple fact is that imobilizing the mech or having it fall over is just not going to be viable. You have to allow for at least SOME movement. Immobilization would mean that you would end up legging just as bad as if ti killed the mech because in a game with very large maps and movement & tactics being vital, being able to leg and freeze one or 2 of the enemy would end up being the be all end all tactic.

The real question is how slow the mech should be after legging. You want it fast enough that legging is not the best option, but slow enough that it imparts SOME advantage to the one who legged him. I am guessing 25-33% would bea good starting number for tests.

You could also make balance harder on a legged mech, increase the knockdown %. Again, this is something you can balance on how much increase the knowndown happens.

One last thing. I would not mind a VERY rare leg being blown off to freeze a mech or even knock them onto the ground. But it should be really rare, like <0.1%. If it is that rare but still occurs, you can chalk it up to bad luck and smile. I could live with that bad luck if the animation was good and the resulting freeze/knock over was an anomaly rather than a tactic.

Why not? Having a mech fall over and/or immobilizing it seems perfectly reasonable to me. What matters in context is what you do additionally to that as a developer - It could easily be that a mech falls flat on its face and thats it, you're doomed and in an unhappy place. Well to me that is just giving up before considering any alternatives.
Suppose you finally get to use arms for more than shooting, meaning you jam those hardened armored fists (or deploy in-body stabilizers/lifters) into the ground and lift yourself into at least an upright position where you can still function as a weapon's platform (an idea I've seen others in this thread talk about) and should you be fortunate enough to have configured your chassis with jumpjets, you could even still move around, albeit it with some rather harsh landings.
If you wanted to go even further you could invent a mode that can be activated in your mech called like "Immobilized", which would then fold up the remaining leg at the torso to function as additional armor...That is a very unfinished idea I know and probably not a very good one, however I think the point is made that it is a matter of what you do with your choices and how you present them

[Scotia]

Both legs destroyed = automatic pilot ejection ?

[buck3tface]

Bryan Ekman, on 15 March 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

We have two test cases.

• Destroy and remove the limp a la arms. (mech disabled)
  
• Cripple and make the mech limp. (mech intact)

We haven't decided which yet.

Ideally i would like to see a progession from crippled to destroyed, once gone the mech would become unbalanced and fall, laying in the mud like that trying to get one last shot on that b******* who legged you maintains the immesion. having the option to "punch out" once on the ground could be good. having the second leg destroyed should not destroy the mech, just further limmit it's movement. ie; no troso twist just arm movement making the eject button look more inviting.

[Atlai]

CloakRogue, on 15 March 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

In Developer Anwsers #5 David said that one of the ways to kill a mech' is to destroy both of its legs...
so does that mean that if you destroy only one leg that it'll start hopping around? Waching an Atlas hop around on one leg, fireing lasers, would be a very memorable sight!
What do the rest of you guys think?

Great......it will be even slower : )

[LackofCertainty]

Bryan Ekman, on 15 March 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

We have two test cases.

• Destroy and remove the limp a la arms. (mech disabled)
  
• Cripple and make the mech limp. (mech intact)

We haven't decided which yet.

I reserve final judgement till I feel how it plays, but Option A sounds like the one I want. When my leg gets blown off give me a % chance to stay on my feet, or I eat dirt. If I eat dirt I'm stuck with the little bit of rotation I can do and whatever my arms can aim at (another benefit to arm mounted weapons. ) If I do stay on my feet I'm immobilized. Can use my jump jets, but that's a one time thing. (aka you can use your JJ's to get to a slightly better position, but the odds of toppling on one foot after a jump should be something like 99%)

All the people who are talking about how they want to slowly be crippled and yadda yadda, well that's already in the game. You start with fully armored legs, then you lose armor and start taking crits, and finally the leg gets blown off. It's called actuator crits people.

Edit: also, as one final tip, to make it a little less punishing on the recieving end, (and maybe make the animation easier?) I'd have if a mech falls after losing a leg, have them automatically roll onto their backs. Makes sure that a legged person can at least be a somewhat effective turret, and that you don't leave the player staring at dirt for 10 minutes while the game ends.

And of course there needs to be a big red eject button that they can smack if they'd rather just die. (I really don't want to see auto ejects for legging)

Edited by LackofCertainty, 17 March 2012 - 08:48 AM.

[MrDred]

LackofCertainty, on 17 March 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

I really don't want to see auto ejects for legging

Or the mech go *boom* because of destroyed legs, yes that was my first thought, too. But there are people who are more arcardish and we have to acknowledge that.

Now MW2... and yes, it is old - but it did many, many, many things right - had an eject function and the legs were not releated to mech death at all (the damage from falling down on your nose was, as was a high speed JJ landing btw).

With respect to those new and more arcade oriented players i propose a solution wich will make both happy.

A little menue in preferences, with two options:

automatic shutdown sequence: enable/disable (default enabled)
automatic ejection system: enable/disable (default enabled)

The old sable-rattlers will disable it and never worry about it again. The new players will strumble upon it at a point where they learn the game and can decide for themselfes if they are up to it. The acarde players don't have to worry at all, wich is exactly what they want.

So all are happy, and people like myself won't be bothered by a computer shutdown sequence every time we go in the reds, tho our missile supply will detonate at times (but thats what CASE is for, right? ^^) or being ejected just because one or two legs refuse to work. BTW... are spidermechs planned? ^^

Edited by MrDred, 17 March 2012 - 09:27 AM.

[Siilk]

I can live with that. If ejection is not forced, all's nice and dandy.

[MaddMaxx]

I always thought this video showed a reasonable response when a Mech gets a bum leg (2:06).



Even a Scout has the same issue and it looks reasonable, just before the Missile kill. (2:37)

Limping is good, hopping is for rabbits, or everything else. LOL

Edited by MaddMaxx, 18 March 2012 - 03:14 PM.

[HeIIequin]

As one of the non hardcore, only-played-MW4 newbies (reletively speaking I suppose. I have played MC2 at least), I'd rather lean towards being able to have MORE options, then less. As a minimum though, I suppose
1 crippled leg = limp, 2 crippled legs = death ala MW4, but I think I'd prefer:
1 crippled leg = limp, 2 crippled legs = faceplant. Or as others have said, you could delve into cripple & destroyed (amputated) legs.
1 crippled leg = limp, 2 crippled legs = immobile, 1 amputated leg = faceplant, 2 amputated legs = faceplant harder. Unless, are there things in certain mechs legs which could warrant killing a mech off if the leg went missing? I just know of heat sinks located there, which is just a heat management issue.

Some pilots might not appreciate being forced to become an immobile sidways weapons platform that can only look one way, but that's what the eject buttons for. If I want to stay in my mech and hope for someone to wanders into my sights, then I should be able to. Not to mention that a scout or command mech doesn't NEED to shoot things to be effective help for their lancemates. This only helps promote role warfare. I also like the idea of forcing enemy mechs to pay better attention to debris lying on the ground. Who knows what might bite your ankles?
Then there's always the addition of -as others have said- JJ being used to provide limited mobility in any number of legged situations, or torso twisting while on the ground to help reorient a mech to face a new direction (at the cost of potentially damaging something I suppose). Sure, your mech wouldn't be a terribly effective weapons platform, but you'd be there, even if only as a radar station or distraction. There could even be mechs (lighter mechs I'd assume) who were capable of standing on one leg without falling over. It's not hopping at any rate (I agree that would look silly. I don't know who would want to invent a pogo-stick mech).

The intentional 'legging' thing could be a problem I suppose, but shouldn't it be rather hard to amputate a mechs leg off? You gotta hit the leg first (some mechs are zippy), have a big enough gun to pierce the leg, and hit it enough times to cut through. It seems like a viable tactic to me if someone wanted to. Don't want to get legged? Stop sacrificing leg armour for your torso.

Is all that too complicated for the Mechwarrior newbie? Maaaybe, but this is hardly COD/Mechassault here. I think we can expect -some- level of 'sophistication' (for lack of a better term) in regards to the playerbase. Regardless, as long as the minimum MW4 leg mechanics are in I'm happy enough. Anything more is icing on the cake =).

(PS. My first post! Hello all! Lurked for a while but never felt like I had anything meaningful to contribute 'till now).

[ArchSight]

I know it's not within some people's minds that they can force people to not leg them by how they play the game but that shouldn't mean the legs should be protected from full dismemberment from the mech. If we do so it will cost us to lose the experience of what really happens when the mech gets that leg taken away. Being legged should be a special moment to prove what a battle mech can do without one of its legs.
For instance, proving that a battle mech can still kick your butt while it’s been supposedly “disabled” would be an epic moment. The criticism of battle mechs being useless on the battlefield when they get legged would be totally dumb founded.

I’ve heard that heat sinks are housed inside the mech legs. You may lose half your heat sinks when you have lost a leg. Half your heat sinks aren’t all of your heat sinks; you can still fire but you will also overheat more. When both legs are gone, I don’t think you should be able to fire without overheating completely to an irreversible shutdown or explosion.

Taking damage from the fall when your mech gets his leg taken out from under him is a great idea. Doing that would create a good game play balance in exchange for having your mech still being able to shoot at other mechs.

And yes, jump jets would be awesome; if they can keep you moving or self right you when your leg is gone.

All robots have a chance to self right themselves if they have some kind of lever like a arm or leg. I’ve seen it in robot wars where they have successfully self righted themselves with their hammer or flipper. I ones owned a game that allowed me to create RC robots that did that too. (I’ve lost it) Anyway, mechs could use their remaining leg to self right into a sitting position to bring their guns to bare. It’s even possible for the mech to turn around using a lean on back than leg side stepping over to drag it around. They could also turn around with the use of their arms.

It could all be simulated into the game and be balanced for game play, but it will take time to be created. I understand that game developers have a schedule to keep too and other parts of the game to concentrate on. Doing this would require a great deal of animation to show, more things to program, and test out for balance. So I guess we can all be happy with the crippled leg for awhile.

Edited by ArchSight, 18 March 2012 - 06:36 PM.

[SirDenOfYork]

MaddMaxx, on 18 March 2012 - 03:13 PM, said:

I always thought this video showed a reasonable response when a Mech gets a bum leg (2:06).



Even a Scout has the same issue and it looks reasonable, just before the Missile kill. (2:37)

Limping is good, hopping is for rabbits, or everything else. LOL

Good example...

[EDMW CSN]

Limping around is chill but I do not want auto ejection if both legs are gone !!
I will put JJs in the side torso and become a flying..... upper torso.

[Moosehead]

I really don't want to see a pogomech when legged,going from a full speed run to 10kph hopping, firing the whole time like it's the easiest thing in the world.

In TT, you might be able to avoid faceplant after a bunch of ploting rolls.

I'd like to see a minigame popup when legged, a simple buttonmasher called

_You Are the Gyroscope_

Win, and you can hop. Lose, you get viewscreen showing dirt.

[LordDeathStrike]

go ahead and pot shot at my leg, ill kill 3-4 of you before you disable me suckas

[Monky]

I've played MW1-MW4 and have to agree limping is the best solution. Single leg standing just looks silly, and being completely taken out of the fight by anything other than a cockpit or engine kill doesn't really feel right. These machines are supposed to be durable, reliable, nearly unstoppable killing machines, if it was as simple as 'oy just shoot the leg' they'd have been discarded for tanks.

I would suggest a simple system like WOT, if you leg someone in a single leg, that leg is disabled for 5 seconds or so (maybe more depending on size of the mech/how hard you're being pounded) and if you're moving at high speed you pivot on the unresponsive dead leg or possibly faceplant. Your CPU then brings it up to a functional 'limping' level with emergency diagnostics after that time.

Most of the weapons in canon wouldn't have the power to violently sever a main structural component like a leg without repeated attacks well beyond what the armor could endure (seriously, it holds up a mech that jumps up and down with up to 100 tons of weight and can carry that load at speed with no significant wear - legs are no weakpoint).

Just my two cents.

[wpmaura]

I really want if one leg is blow off that the mech is down I under stand the issue with this, but maybe just give legs for structural HP's so that its actually harder to take them out but not harder to take out weapons mounted on them or crippling them

[movingtarget]

hehe torso mech would be funny if you ran out of creds and could not get it fixed right away then have to run a few matches as a flying torso turret , on the bright side you would have a lower profile.

[xKiNGx]

MW(Modern Warfare)....whats that gotta do with MW's....(MechWarriors)... perhaps the mech will loose its legs and go prone?

[tyrone dunkirk]

Ya, I'd think that for the destroying of the leg it would be more like the actuator in the knee had been destroyed. Or the hip, or you burn throught the myomer. I don't think we're gonna have bunny-hopping assault 'mechs ;P