72 replies to this topic

[AngelOfClans]

What ever yall decide please make legging harder to do. The game gets lame when you play some one who just shoots your leggs every time aND HAS NO HONOR.

[William Petersen]

CloakRogue, on 15 March 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

In Developer Anwsers #5 David said that one of the ways to kill a mech' is to destroy both of its legs...

/sadface

So much for staying true to TT. I was looking forward to blasting at folks from the ground in a last-ditch effort to kill the ******* that shot off both my legs.

[RoboCyberMummy]

Personally I like the way Firestorm does it. When a leg gets "destroyed" you get to limp at reduced speeds (lighter 'mechs still limp faster than heavier ones, though) and you lose reverse. Doing damage to the dead leg has no effect on the rest of the 'mech. This creates an interesting tactical situation where you try to put your dead leg toward your enemy to save the good leg. That keeps you alive long enough to try and get that desperate headshot or return the favor and leg them. You're still kinda screwed when you get legged but at least you can do some creative piloting to keep yourself alive a little longer. Losing the good leg means 'mech death. Yeah it's not in line with the TT but I think it's a small sacrifice. Putting prone into a 'mech game seems technically difficult, but I'm no expert. How much damage do you expect to do from the ground anyway? I think I'd rather gtfo and hop into another game or mess about in the 'mech lab than be stuck with my face in the dirt.

That's just my opinion though.

[Leetskeet]

SpekX, on 19 April 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

Personally I like the way Firestorm does it. When a leg gets "destroyed" you get to limp at reduced speeds (lighter 'mechs still limp faster than heavier ones, though) and you lose reverse. Doing damage to the dead leg has no effect on the rest of the 'mech. This creates an interesting tactical situation where you try to put your dead leg toward your enemy to save the good leg.

This is more or less what needs to happen, except for that leg becoming invincible. When you "destroy" the leg, as in all of its hitpoints are gone(which would destroy an arm, etc) it forces a limp at 1/3 speed and no reverse. Continued fire, say 50% of the leg's health(so legs have 100% health to force a limp, and 50% for rip the leg off, essentially 150% health for complete destruction) will destroy the leg forcing the mech to fall over or be incapacitated.

This way, destroying a leg is still a viable choice from a tactical standpoint as it cripples the mech completely, but it's not a frustrating loss for the person getting legged because even once their leg gets taken out and they're crippled they can still limp around and attempt to fight back. Only with a dedicated effort would the leg actually crumple and result in a downed mech, and it would require more damage to the leg than had they just shot the torso.

Without some sort of limping mechanic you're looking at a game like MW3 where tapping the legs is the optimal way to play, and that ruins a game nice and quick.

[Siilk]

Yeah, invincible legs and eternal limping. Way to go to ruin the immersion! Legging is the issue that begs to be treated with a huge dose of stick closer to TT. If the leg is gone, it's gone. With good gyro, mech could still balance on the one that's left. Two legs gone, mech's stationary(except for those with functional arms, they can crawl), and can orient itself into a semi-upward manner(again, gyro helps a lot). You see the enemy close enough? You shoot him. You happen to become legged in a distant corner of the map? You eject or wait for the opportunity to bite some ankles. You're scout or commander? You use your class' "special powers"(artillery strikes, C3 coverage etc) to help your team.

[LordDeathStrike]

dont know why anyone would leg in mwo. the legs of any chasis anounced so far have as much or more armor then the center torso forward area.

the only way hitting the legs is viable is if some ***** goes into the mechlab, and builds his mech with no leg armor to save 1 ton of weight for something else, at which point he deserves it.

[William Petersen]

Bryan Ekman, on 15 March 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

We have two test cases.

• Destroy and remove the limp a la arms. (mech disabled)
  
• Cripple and make the mech limp. (mech intact)

We haven't decided which yet.

Cripple and make limp is best solution! <3

Second leg 'destruction' should make the mech fall and be unable to get up, but it should still be able to shoot things.

Thus it was in TT, and thus should it be!


I would also say that further damage to the disabled leg should *not* transfer as it did in the TT because the TT rules for transfer were to eliminate false-positive hits. That is, you roll to hit, you hit, but then you 'hit' a second that isn't there. You could look at damage transfer a as not really 'transfer' so much as a re-allocation of the to-hit table with, for example, the RT taking the place(s) of the RA on a mech with a destroyed RA. But that would require a bunch of extra charts, and it's just easier to remember it as a 'transfer' from destroyed side limb to intact side torso, and/or from destroyed side torso to center torso.

[verybad]

LordDeathStrike, on 19 April 2012 - 11:16 PM, said:

dont know why anyone would leg in mwo. the legs of any chasis anounced so far have as much or more armor then the center torso forward area.

the only way hitting the legs is viable is if some ***** goes into the mechlab, and builds his mech with no leg armor to save 1 ton of weight for something else, at which point he deserves it.

People were taking all the armor off their legs in MW3 in many leagues because it was considred a "Dishonorable" thing to do.

That's a rather ridiculous thing IMO.

The reason mechs aren't kept alive after they're legged (as is possible in TT) is because it's incredibly boring, and in TT, you are usually in command of several mechs, not just one.

It is not somethign that is condusive to continuing to play the game. People would just eject and find a new game in most cases. It would also be complained about quite heavilly by most players except for those that are most passionate about staying true to the TT rules in all aspects.

[Sporklift]

This topic reminds me of a mission I played in MW2 where I was tasked with the destruction of a Jade Falcon terraformer (or something like that, all I know is it had a reactor). For some reason I had to use a captured Jade Falcon Mad Dog to fool the patrols and get to the target. Every time my cover was blown and I assaulted the compound a defending Nova would blow off my left leg. Same leg every time. The only way to get up in MW2 is to have jump-jets. I can still remember trying to scoot my 1 legged 'mech to minimum safe distance after blasting the target, but because of my hamfisted customization job I never had enough jump-jet juice to get very far on each charge. I think finally I figured out I could destroy the target at maximum range (without having to deal with the Nova) and get out with plenty of time to spare. Fun times.
Anyway, if I lose both legs I'd hope to be able to at least have my 'mech placed in a 'sitting' position so I could fight back as a sort of immobile turret, making concentrating on a leg not necessarily the most easy and risk free tactic.

[RoboCyberMummy]

Siilk, on 19 April 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

Yeah, invincible legs and eternal limping. Way to go to ruin the immersion! Legging is the issue that begs to be treated with a huge dose of stick closer to TT. If the leg is gone, it's gone. With good gyro, mech could still balance on the one that's left. Two legs gone, mech's stationary(except for those with functional arms, they can crawl), and can orient itself into a semi-upward manner(again, gyro helps a lot). You see the enemy close enough? You shoot him. You happen to become legged in a distant corner of the map? You eject or wait for the opportunity to bite some ankles. You're scout or commander? You use your class' "special powers"(artillery strikes, C3 coverage etc) to help your team.

Immersion is subjective and I've never had a problem with the invincible leg scenario. In my opinion it adds a lot to the tactics of one on one 'mech combat, but I do see your point. Maybe the solution is compromise with a system similar to what Leetskeet said.

Leetskeet, on 19 April 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:

This is more or less what needs to happen, except for that leg becoming invincible. When you "destroy" the leg, as in all of its hitpoints are gone(which would destroy an arm, etc) it forces a limp at 1/3 speed and no reverse. Continued fire, say 50% of the leg's health(so legs have 100% health to force a limp, and 50% for rip the leg off, essentially 150% health for complete destruction) will destroy the leg forcing the mech to fall over or be incapacitated.

This way, destroying a leg is still a viable choice from a tactical standpoint as it cripples the mech completely, but it's not a frustrating loss for the person getting legged because even once their leg gets taken out and they're crippled they can still limp around and attempt to fight back. Only with a dedicated effort would the leg actually crumple and result in a downed mech, and it would require more damage to the leg than had they just shot the torso.

Without some sort of limping mechanic you're looking at a game like MW3 where tapping the legs is the optimal way to play, and that ruins a game nice and quick.

As for legging being treated with a dose of TT, I think the TT has a lot of really good guidelines for MWO to follow, but in the end they are two very different types of game. I've played enough TT to know that flopping around like a dying fish because the dice gods frown on your piloting skill rolls is not as much fun as shooting the other guy. I really like Battletech TT for what it is, but I also really like the MechWarrior games for what they are and I think some rules from each game simply don't work well in the other. William Petersen gives a classic example of a TT rule that, in my opinion, doesn't have any place in a MechWarrior game.

William Petersen, on 20 April 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

Cripple and make limp is best solution! <3

Second leg 'destruction' should make the mech fall and be unable to get up, but it should still be able to shoot things.

Thus it was in TT, and thus should it be!


I would also say that further damage to the disabled leg should *not* transfer as it did in the TT because the TT rules for transfer were to eliminate false-positive hits. That is, you roll to hit, you hit, but then you 'hit' a second that isn't there. You could look at damage transfer a as not really 'transfer' so much as a re-allocation of the to-hit table with, for example, the RT taking the place(s) of the RA on a mech with a destroyed RA. But that would require a bunch of extra charts, and it's just easier to remember it as a 'transfer' from destroyed side limb to intact side torso, and/or from destroyed side torso to center torso.

Anyway, thanks for letting me speak my opinion, and thanks for the quotes.

[William Petersen]

SpekX, on 20 April 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

I've played enough TT to know that flopping around like a dying fish because the dice gods frown on your piloting skill rolls is not as much fun as shooting the other guy.

I love failing two PSRs of 5 and then blacking out. That tends to really make my day.

That said, I'd rather flop around like a fish (or lie on my back, staring at the sky, trying to line up a shot with my arm weapons) than sitting in observer mode being completely unable to help my team. >=-)

[Siilk]

SpekX, on 20 April 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

Immersion is subjective and I've never had a problem with the invincible leg scenario. In my opinion it adds a lot to the tactics of one on one 'mech combat, but I do see your point. Maybe the solution is compromise with a system similar to what Leetskeet said.

After giving all this some thoughts, I came to think that you're right here. MW3's "one leg gone and you're dead" approach was probably worst in the series. MW4's approach led to completely unnatural gameplay mechanics("destroyed" leg being indestructible with the damage dealt to it transferred to the other leg). MWLL was a bit better when it comes to realism but with no ability to steer the mech upright legging is still a bit cheesy in there. And, of course, "invincible legs" idea(in any of it's form) is not an option for a game that tries to call itself a sim. So, I thing I have to agree, Leetskeet's idea is probably the closest we got to the compromise so far.

A couple of thoughts on his idea:

Firstly, even though one-legged mech would become immobile(except for mechs with JJs), I think that even complete destruction of one leg should not automatically lead to mech falling down unless it's gyro or other leg is severely damaged or some efforts are applied to bring it down(like ramming, for example). JJing in such condition would be risky though, as landing with one leg should require a lot of piloting efforts as well as perfect gyro. I also think one-legged mech should be able to try to get up in a standing position, again if it's gyro did not sustained any significant damage.

Additionally, I really think that fallen mech should retain some rudimentary mobility, i.e. at least the ability to orient itself semi-upright and turn itself around, albeit very slowly. I'd also be delighted by legless mechs being able for a to crawl with the help of articulated arms(if it happens to have any), but this topic is extremely controversial so I would leave this question open.

[jaytar]

i'm for cripple/limp. even destroy/no move except torso pivit, unless you have jump jets(hop). with jump jets i'd still be slightly manuverable dog meat.
chances are if i've been halfway legged, it's not far from the other being destroyed too.time to punch out

Edited by jaytar, 21 April 2012 - 07:49 AM.