334 replies to this topic

[wwiiogre]

as there are going to be at least two modes of game play, including one that seems to be a single player king of the hill or death match with respawn. I assume everyone on the map will be enemy so just play that Redbeard so you never have to worry about team kills or griefing. As for me I am playing the other mode, with teams vs other teams. Hopefully with good teammates that work together use (voip) and use tactics, have leaders and assignments for each battle. But that is what the Dev's say this game is going to be like. Might be why I want to play it that way. Imagine that, the Dev's say they make a game with a certain play style, it attacts players that want to play a game that way. And lo and behold the players want a way to keep people out that do not play that way. Who would have thought that people would actually play a game the way it is supposed to be played? These same players seem to also going out of their way to help new players assimilate to the culture and amazing fiction of this IP. Some of us are even old enough to have played Battle Droids and a convention before it was even a commercially released product. Including waiting for decades for the tech to catch up with what most of us have always wanted, a game like PGI seems to be making. I for one will do everything that PGI allows us to do as a community to help them protect their amazing investment. First I will support them with money, second I will be recruiting other players to do the same. I will go out of my way to help new players.

Luckily I am not selfish and selfcentered and demand that the game let me do what I want, when I want or I will f'''''''''' tear the thing out of my hard drive. (Is that like a little boy that takes his ball and goes home?) Yep, PGI made the game just for you RedBeard.

chris

Edited by wwiiogre, 17 March 2012 - 06:45 PM.

[Red Beard]

wwiiogre, on 17 March 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

Hockey has a sin bin, sports have penalties.

Horrible examples. A penalty in any of those two sports is NEVER in regards to a lack of good teamwork. The only penalty for that is failure.

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Combat in real life is so unforgiving that most idiots only get one mistake and they are gone.

<edited for trolling> - Drhat

In the end, I like my video games like I like my country. With as little government restrictions as possible. If you want all of these regulations just because you want others to play the way YOU like, go play something on the xbox. They let you report players that you want to cry about.

wwiiogre, on 17 March 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

So would that be a personal insult to me? Since you know nothing about me, I assume you are using a generalization. Which means you have a hard time working out deep and thought provoking concepts when trying to debate a topic and must resort to name calling. The moment a person name calls or insults during a debate, they have already admitted they have no ability to win the debate on facts, on skill or style.

chris

You can take it personally, if you feel like you apply...

And from what you have said, it looks like...

Edited by DrHat, 18 March 2012 - 12:07 PM.
Removed Trolling

[Caballo]

Do not feed the troll.


There is a system in America's Army (OK, OK, The most hacked fps in history, but read ahead, the idea is good and it works) that worked with ROE (Rules Of Engagement). ROE points are accumulated when you hit a friendly, and if you pass a certain limit in a single match, you are kicked in some servers, banned on others, or kicked and then banned if you persist rejoining and getting the same way. You don't need a permanent ban for the user: maybe two days or a week for that server would work.

Maybe it's an option.

EDIT: Also, if there are going to be any kind of statistics (which i ignore), the ROE may be one of them, so you know who you are playing with.

Edited by Caballo, 17 March 2012 - 06:49 PM.

[wwiiogre]

Hawkeye,

If the Dev's allow us to exchange in game currency, I would have no problem with that. But as far as I know accounts and I imagine in game currency is not going to be changing hands. Now evidently there will contracts. Of which type we do not know yet. I hope the Dev's monitor the ingame as heavily as they monitor these forums. So that contracts could be taken out by houses or NPC's for specific players or units like Hits etc. I would absolutely love this. Like I said, I want friendly fire. Which means if you had a contract to whack someone it better pay better than the bill you are gonna wrack up for damaging his mech. I hope this game will have that kind of depth.

chris

[palebear]

Red Beard, on 17 March 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

In the end, I like my video games like I like my country. With as little government restrictions as possible.

How very Colbert-esque of you. That is just awesome.

[Dras Black]

Hawkeye 72, on 17 March 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:


No todays gamers have been shot in the back too many times by 12 year olds with a sailors mouth. Its unenjoyable when you meet one once every game.

On topic, FF could pose interesting/problematic scenarios where a player is hired by a group to sabotage a critical battle or pull off an 'assassination'. If a mission has incentive to win, then there exists incentive to bend the rules.

Also, suppose I call up pilot A and offer him 100000 C-bills to feed me information about his teammates position in a match whose outcome has some weight in the universe? If such deals are possible, would any of you guys be in favor of keeping such a system? Suppose one of my teammates alerts pilot A1 of the plot during the match. I'm pretty sure A1 will very much be in favor of shooting player A.

Food for thought.


I'm pretty merc myself, and I don't even think I would take that deal. I have some kind of Integrity, and one to many of those kinds of "Spy" missions are PROBABLY going to get you black balled if you're rep gets that big in the first place.

Edited by Dras Black, 17 March 2012 - 06:43 PM.

[wwiiogre]

Wait, you are a mech assault player. No wonder you don't understand the concept of Battle Tech or Mech Warrior. My 10 year old nephew could teach you how to play that game if you want hints. He can even show you how to play other games you might be able to grasp. I am sure he could teach you courtesy. My two daughters could teach you about the military if you want lessons. Wait, should not feed the troll. Yep should burn them, that way they don't regenerate.



chris

[Hawkeye 72]

wwiiogre, on 17 March 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

Hawkeye,

If the Dev's allow us to exchange in game currency, I would have no problem with that. But as far as I know accounts and I imagine in game currency is not going to be changing hands. Now evidently there will contracts. Of which type we do not know yet. I hope the Dev's monitor the ingame as heavily as they monitor these forums. So that contracts could be taken out by houses or NPC's for specific players or units like Hits etc. I would absolutely love this. Like I said, I want friendly fire. Which means if you had a contract to whack someone it better pay better than the bill you are gonna wrack up for damaging his mech. I hope this game will have that kind of depth.

chris

Indeed. This opens up a whole new dynamic which would be interesting, but could be just as easily abused. It's hard to pick out areas of the game where scenarios could occur that damage the experience (team killing is just an obvious one, modders are a second one). So we have to ask ourselves what is tolerable and what is not, and how we keep track of this/penalize it in case it begins to hurt the game.

[Red1769]

Quote

This whole thread is ridiculous. The idea that the devs should have to puts measures in place to restrict people from playing a certain way is just awful. People should able to do whatever they want in the game! What the hell is this? Video game Marxism? Communism for the BT world? First, TK's are not as common as you make them out to be. Second, good team players are those that simply overcome and persevere no matter what!

Bounties?!
C-Bill penalties?!
IN-GAME POLICE?!

If I get a PM telling me that I am being banned for not playing as a team member, I will rip the game off of my hard drive and never play anything from PGI again.

Fortunately, I don't think anything remotely like these God awful suggestions is coming and I think this thread is a joke.

So you'd be fine with me or bob or both of us continually being on your team and killing you with no punishment whatsoever? Just repair our mechs so that we can do it again next time? Some people are making it more common than what it is, but it's still there. Something should be done. Some of the ideas here are awful, but some are rather appealing. Accidents happen, and sometimes it's not the person that fired the trigger's fault. Putting on incentives to not do it is a great idea. Driving away potential paying players? The player base makes a f2p game. If the players are TKing dill holes, who will play? I sure as heck won't.

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Yeah sure, incentivising. That's another way of putting it.

Any time you lay down any kind of "penalties" for certain types of gameplay like that, it drives potential, cash paying players out the door. You can't have players getting into situations where they build up negative balances just for playing the way they did. Even if a player chooses to behave maliciously, you cannot penalize them.

Besides, good players don't need any backup systems like this. REAL players can work around things like this, instead of whining about them.

That's not a style of play. That's just being a ****. No penalties just gives them more reason to do it. Work around it? How? When that person kills off two of your best players/teammates by backstabbing them with everything they have, in a 12 vs 12 match, suddenly it's 9 vs 12 and those twelve are fairly good. When you tk that person, they've done some damage to you or your remaining teammates. The only way for you personally to solve it is to run a unit on your own and play only with those you trust, though that's still no garuntee you'll only be stuck with them as we don't know much about the matchmaking system yet. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a system in place.

Todays gamers are puds? That's just insulting and a good indication that you lost the debate. As far as I'm concerned, you can play BF 3 or that MW 3 and team kill all you want.

Moving on...

Hawkeye has a good point on that one. Though they would have to pay enough to cover the penalties you endure, like what wwiiogre says. Though that can happen already with the Loyalty Points on the contract listing. Must have so much before you can take part in it. Dras brings up another point. Probably not good to do it all the time then. Especially if the target is your buddy for months or a teammate you value very much.

[Hawkeye 72]

Dras Black, on 17 March 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

I'm pretty merc myself, and I don't even think I would take that deal. I have some kind of Integrity, and one to many of those kinds of "Spy" missions are PROBABLY going to get you black balled if you're rep gets that big in the first place.

YOU have integrity, but anyone plays online knows there are those who lack such morality. You have to assume there are people who will try to break the system to the best of their abilities.

[Red Beard]

First, you attempted to take the moral high ground...

wwiiogre, on 17 March 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

The moment a person name calls or insults during a debate, they have already admitted they have no ability to win the debate on facts, on skill or style.

Then you say this...

wwiiogre, on 17 March 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

Luckily I am not selfish and selfcentered and demand that the game let me do what I want, when I want of I will f'''''''''' tear the thing out of my hard drive. (Is that like a little boy that takes his ball and goes home?) Yep, PGI made the game just for you RedBeard.

Wow...zero to contradicting your own words in two posts. Not bad, but I am married and I have seen better.


If the devs decide that a player who inadvertantly shoots a team member should be penalized, to ANY degree, that is a HUGE detraction from good gameplay. The only way that devs should control bad players is by promoting good gameplay. And that is what they are doing, by adding all kinds of incentives to play as a team.

Only players with no skill need regulations like the ones suggested here. Only players that cannot make up for those VERY few moments when a young kid screwws the game up with bad attitudes or anti-team behaviour will cry for regulations. The good players simply sit back, sigh, and keep playing. Which one are "you"?

[Hawkeye 72]

Red1769, on 17 March 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

Some people are making it more common than what it is, but it's still there.

Indeed. We have no idea if this will even be an issue, because I plan on getting to know my lancemates well enough to avoid problems. I am sure most of the forum holds a similar view. The problem arises when you leave the confines of a cult following and open the game up to the majority. If the majority ruins the experience the hardcore vets all leave, then the product is ruined because there is a percentage of players that may only play for 5 to 10 months and not care about the universe. This game is happening because after 25 years there exists a fanbase dedicated to this game

[The Cheese]

Red Beard, on 17 March 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

Only players with no skill need regulations like the ones suggested here. Only players that cannot make up for those VERY few moments when a young kid screwws the game up with bad attitudes or anti-team behaviour will cry for regulations. The good players simply sit back, sigh, and keep playing.

As you've said, intentional TKers may not be as common as some people are fearing, but the fact is that they are still there. I think the issue here is not so much the TK itself, it's the follow-up.

Players will be given the old one-two if they are killed by a team mate; They are out of the round, which could go for another half an hour (my estimate, we've been given little indication as to how long a battle will go for) and they are then also up for the cost of repairing their mech. There is the very real possibility they they will not be able to repair their mech if this happens too often, as they can't win any matches because they keep getting team killed.

I think this scenario would lose PGI far more potentially paying customers than they would lose due to players being unhappy with penalties imposed on TKers.

[wwiiogre]

I am the 47 year old vet, who is tired of griefers ruining good games. In a game where damage will cost me money, then if someone on my team damages me, they should pay for it. Simple. Intentional or not, you damaged your own team pay up. Since I can't shoot them and kill them or take them behind the barn and give them a discipline lesson I would think it would be fair if they knew in advance that they have to pay if they damage their own team. Then it is merely a rule designed to enforce a set of guidelines. The game is free, there is no monthly fee. If you don't like the rules don't play. Stick to mech assault, its an arcade game and has nothing to do with BattleTech or MechWarrior or CBT. So if and when they make rules that you don't like, I hope you will go back to MechAssault and play there. I have no problem with you or your ideas. Only the way you choose to express them. Good luck with whatever you choose to do in this game.

Chris

Edited by wwiiogre, 17 March 2012 - 06:59 PM.

[Dras Black]

Hawkeye 72, on 17 March 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

YOU have integrity, but anyone plays online knows there are those who lack such morality. You have to assume there are people who will try to break the system to the best of their abilities.

Very true, the best we can hope for is that we don't get teamed up with trolls and morons.
*cough* I'm looking at you Red Beard *cough cough*

I'm still in favor of "knowing what you're getting before you get it" style of Anti-Grief, but the other ideas are pretty good as well. This is all just head-canon to begin with.

Edited by Dras Black, 17 March 2012 - 07:10 PM.

[Red Beard]

Red1769, on 17 March 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

So you'd be fine with me or bob or both of us continually being on your team and killing you with no punishment whatsoever?

Continually....no, I would not allow a player to keep showing up and assuming that he can keep being on my team If a player DOES ruin a game that way for me, my team and I will kick him out after the game is over. It's not about

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Some people are making it more common than what it is, but it's still there.

Yes, you are right. There are going to be so many players on this game, I see this thread as an exercise in futility. It's going to be more of a non-issue than any of you want to think.

Quote

That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a system in place.

I'll agree that they should have some kind of way, as has been suggested, to track TKing stats and make them available for all to see before the game.

[Red1769]

Quote

If the devs decide that a player who inadvertantly shoots a team member should be penalized, to ANY degree, that is a HUGE detraction from good gameplay. The only way that devs should control bad players is by promoting good gameplay. And that is what they are doing, by adding all kinds of incentives to play as a team.

Only players with no skill need regulations like the ones suggested here. Only players that cannot make up for those VERY few moments when a young kid screwws the game up with bad attitudes or anti-team behaviour will cry for regulations. The good players simply sit back, sigh, and keep playing. Which one are "you"?

Not really. I curse myself all the time if I accidentally shoot on a teammate, even AI teammates. That's why some of the suggestions here are terrible, they can't tell the difference between on purpose and accident. There is nothing wrong with combining promoting good gameplay and some regulation. Not a whole lot, but something there as extra to further influence furture TKers. If nothing else, we all agree to disagree and let's leave it at that.

Quote

Indeed. We have no idea if this will even be an issue, because I plan on getting to know my lancemates well enough to avoid problems. I am sure most of the forum holds a similar view. The problem arises when you leave the confines of a cult following and open the game up to the majority. If the majority ruins the experience the hardcore vets all leave, then the product is ruined because there is a percentage of players that may only play for 5 to 10 months and not care about the universe. This game is happening because after 25 years there exists a fanbase dedicated to this game

I plan on doing the same thing. Though my activity is iffy considering I'm in college plus running another RP site while being involved in a BT rp site as well. Then after college when I go Job Hunting. But I still plan on playing it. I'm of the younger crowd, only 21, and haven't played online against anyone at all, but even I know this.

"I'll agree that they should have some kind of way, as has been suggested, to track TKing stats and make them available for all to see before the game." - Red Beard

Wow...way to contradict yourself. Against any type of system of regulation to suddenly for it. Or did you change your mind? Or is that the only system you'd like? It is still an issue. You can never be sure how much of an issue it'll be until the game comes out, as what Hawkeye says, but it's good to still discuss it.

Edited by Red1769, 17 March 2012 - 07:11 PM.

[Red Beard]

The Cheese, on 17 March 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

I think the issue here is not so much the TK itself, it's the follow-up.

I agree, Cheese. I also think that this thread is very much like the thread on "how to penalize disconnectors". It was a thread that went on and on about how to really stick it to the guys that pull the plug when their game goes south. In the end, it comes down to the fact that it happens so seldom that to do anything about it would be a waste of resources.

[Trihard]

In my opinion, FF is a good thing for realism.
it stops people form just holding down the trigger and targeting anything that moves.
imagine large groups of mechs firing on a single target in difficult terrain just because they can see part of the enemies foot between the legs of another team mate.
I would be disappointed to see it removed.

I like the other ideas but they all have flaws.
Bounties?! - pay the a-hole to have an Alt / crooked team mates blow away their main...

C-Bill penalties?! - yes and no, accidental TK's will be crippling for a new starter .... rage quit anyone?

IN-GAME POLICE?! - this might have a chance, but who polices the police... it's a lot of trust to put into someone that not all players will actually know, and might cause splintering of player groups because they don't trust the ref.

Voting system - this is good, and it works, but how many times have you played other games where the chat was spammed with votes, it often gets to the point that you don't even read them anymore....not to mentions that if you have not seen the TK how do you believe its deliberate... how may TK's will it take for a whole team to vote.

I am surprised that do one has said anything about Kill rights ?
depending on the game type and wether players re spawn...aka the drop ship mode that has been talked about.
the victim gets a major damage bonus on the TK'er while the game runs or a set time limit.
if the victim decided it was an accident they just keep playing, or they can hunt down the F-tard and administer sweet revenge.
once the TK'er has been taken out by the victim the kill rights are removed and its back to the game, or for repeat offences a time limit is used regardless of the number of revenge attacks.
this might work for the whole team against the TK'er if there is not respauning in that game mode.

Forgive the spelling... not my strong point.

Edited by Trihard, 17 March 2012 - 07:15 PM.

[Togg Bott]

as i said a ways back. i played EVE online for 6 years.the notion that TK'ers or griefers are not that prevelant. i say your wrong. there is a group that calls themselves Goonswarm, they invade games for no other reason that to cause as much destruction as possible before they get hit with a ban hammer. the only reason they stayed with EVE for so long (8,000+ member corp), is EVE was designed with measures to TRY and insulate normal people from them. and it was a rating system that was administered by the servers... gamers had no say in it. the DEV's even removed themselves from the process to insure fairness. the condensed version of the system is this... do bad, and your rating goes down. do good, your rating goes up. if your rating gets too low, your not allowed to freely roam the areas with the people that work together. notice i didnt say banned, just impediments were placed that hindered you. it was a system that alloowed you to instantly see what catagory the other person was in. and no... bad new players didnt get in the same catagory as greifers. cause you eventually get good or atleast better than bad.

Edited by Togg Bott, 17 March 2012 - 07:16 PM.