26 replies to this topic

[Sidewinder619]

Just curious - would there be any call for these in MWO? I would imagine flares could present a false heat signature and the chaff doing the same for radar - similar to modern fighter aircraft when an enemy has a lock and possibly creating a smokescreen to mask an advance/retreat...


Sidewinder619

[Helmer]

I know it has been brought up before in the forums. But there's obviously been no official stance on it.

Canonically I don't believe there's much, if any, presidence for it. However, I think they could potentially be cool additions. As well as something that "fits" the IP.

If I remember correctly an early Dev blog did mention possible equipment in the future that sends out false radar signatures, IFF signals, etc etc. But it was something they mentioned looking into in the future.

[Wolfbite]

I dont know how effective chaff and flares would be? Mechs dont move as fast as aircraft so wouldnt make up enough distance after confusing the missile... And I guess the seekers on the missiles would be better protected from spoofing and be better at distinguishing flares from a mech.

As a kind of modern example... Early model I.R missiles would accidentally lock onto the sun. ( I love the idea of a few archers and stingers heading their way to the fusian ball at the centre of our solar system [ I know its not happening they run ou of fuel.... Its the thought that counts damn you])

[Kaemon]

Wolfbite, on 20 March 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

I dont know how effective chaff and flares would be? Mechs dont move as fast as aircraft so wouldnt make up enough distance after confusing the missile... And I guess the seekers on the missiles would be better protected from spoofing and be better at distinguishing flares from a mech.

As a kind of modern example... Early model I.R missiles would accidentally lock onto the sun. ( I love the idea of a few archers and stingers heading their way to the fusian ball at the centre of our solar system [ I know its not happening they run ou of fuel.... Its the thought that counts damn you])

Considering they implemented a very Line of Sight-centric engagement concept, have discussed (vaguely) environment effects (minimum - fighting at different times of day) I would suggest they could actually be very effective.

Plus they add a level to tactical gameplay, importance of alternative view/sight options (infrared, night vision, etc..) and almost every damn video we see for a MW game has the old 'Ambush Al' coming out from smoke, or around a corner, it almost seems weird not to have it.

/$.02

[Wolfbite]

Smoke I agree with... Chaff/Flares no so much...

[Kenyon Burguess]

you would need to set a 10 story building on fire to mask the heat signiture of a mech. flare are for seeing at night in TT. chaff isnt needed due to ECM packages and AMS. smoke rounds i can see but at the cost of a missle system i doubt people would use them much

[BarHaid]

It might not be that easy for the players to implement, but tossing a batch of flares into a metal scrap heap (for the mag sensor) behind a smoke wall would make for a fantastic decoy. Of course, this means that we have to be able to use our hand actuators to haul wreckage around.

[Skylarr]

Flare, Chaff, and Smoke launcher would take up cric slot and space. What do you want on a mech? A Flare/Chaff/Smoke launcher or a weapon??

[Hangfire]

Skylarr, on 20 March 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

Flare, Chaff, and Smoke launcher would take up cric slot and space. What do you want on a mech? A Flare/Chaff/Smoke launcher or a weapon??

Depends on the way systems work, E.G. in MW4v (I think) flares fired forward similar to NARC beacons, (I used 'em for NARC practice)
You'd be amazed how much a burning flare or 3 in your FOV can distract a pilot, those flares got me out of trouble once or twice.

But it depends on the implementation by the Devs and the execution of use by the pilots.

[Skylarr]

I see it now. I am the battlefield and the friendly mech in front of me activated his flares, either, pulling my missiles towards him, or, blinding me for a few seconds.

They are good for aircraft and long ranged fire fights. But, not up close.

Edited by Skylarr, 20 March 2012 - 11:21 AM.

[Malgian]

Skylarr, on 20 March 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

Flare, Chaff, and Smoke launcher would take up cric slot and space. What do you want on a mech? A Flare/Chaff/Smoke launcher or a weapon??

Used properly, a smoke launcher IS a weapon. Imagine a Lance made up of a group of friends in which each member fits some kind of thermo optic sensor and one or two members fit a smoke launcher. Smoke the opfor, blinding or impairing his vision, then waste him at your leisure as you can see through the smoke.

On top of that, smoke is a great defensive tool.

[Skylarr]

The table top does have smoke rounds

Edited by Skylarr, 20 March 2012 - 11:18 AM.

[Hangfire]

Skylarr, on 20 March 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

I see it now. I am the battlefield and the friendly mech in front of my activated his flares, either, pulling my missiles towards him, or, blinding me for a few seconds.

They are good for aircraft and lang ranged fire fights. But, not up close.

I guess what i was trying to say (albeit in a roundabout way) was that if it get's put in the game, the playerbase WILL find a use for it.

[Karr285]

Well, we should all get on the same page as to what flares actually do, #1 "heat seeking" missiles are very old tech as what is now being referred to as such is actually Infra Red which track the IR signature #2 flares Emmit the exact IR signature (not heat signature) of the A/C they are ejected from, ergo they effectively confuse the IR sensors causing the missile to "choose" 1 of the possible many new Identical IR sigs that have just popped up. (yes I am aware heat can effect your IR sig but even without heat everything emits IR)
On an offshoot it is impossible to detect an IR lock-on as it is a passive system which means you would never know the missile was there until it left its tube and your MAWS picked it up to tell you it was coming at you.

So since every Wechwarrior game always has that annoying missile lock warning they must all be Radar lock missiles anyway making Flares irrelevant.

Chaff works very well at disrupting Radar tracking missiles and even moving a decent speed at all would effective make missiles go wide and miss among as chaff are just a bunch of cut pieces of metal fibers that create a much stronger Radar return signal and will 100% of the time cause the missile to go for the Chaff (stronger signal stronger "desire" to fly towards). Since missile explode upon Proximity not collision this would also work very well even if the chaff was shot 10-20 meters in front of you that is still a large decrease in damage.

speed has a minor effect on this as helicopters also implement these tactics and they are the slowest of the slow in the air, chaff and flare will work at a stand still as long as you move from where you just were after firing off chaff and flare you will survive.

Edited by Karr285, 20 March 2012 - 12:06 PM.

[mr Zonke]

Flares and chaff would'nt make sense me thinks, allready today modern missiles (aim-9x, iris-t) have ways of differentiating between flare and aircraft. I'd imagine an lrm salvo relies on multiple guidance systems.

Smoke though, would'nt make sense not to have in a mech battle =p ..and would also be awesome, a bunch of smoke canisters would'nt take much space and weight.. Illumination flares would also be cool.

[StompyMcGee]

Flares and chaff would be awesome. Especially as an addition to dancing over the broken, charred hulk of your opponent's mech.

[Pave Low]

If you're firing lasers at a target you want to see smoke belching from it. So definitely smoke should be on.

[Rattlehead NZ]

I just finished reading "Decision at Thunder Rift" again, last time being 15 or more years ago. Anyway in the book in one of the raids they used smoke missiles to cover their retreat. In saying that i hope they have smoke as a module in the game.

Oh and Kudos for me to search for a thread with the topic of smoke before posting a new one

[Sleepy Head]

The players (in MW4:MERCS.) who fire tons of missles and run behind a hill drive me insane. Yes, I want flares to brake their missile lock.

What about smoke? I could see smoke round being fired in a canyon or a revine and advancing or retreating. I think it would be especiallyuseful on a Capture the Flag type gamemode if MW:O ever gets one.

Like OP said chaff would be good for radar signatures, but this is could simply be solved too easily by not trusting your radar, and instead using your pure vision.

[Gigaton]

AFAIK, the modern anti TI smokes are short lived and mostly used to "jam" enemy attacks (ie. onboard sensors on tank detect incoming ATGM and lay VIRSS) rather than lay smoke screens to cover movement and troop deployment.

If one assumes widespread use of TI in BTU (eg. available on every 'mech as standard in MW:2) that could explain lack of smoke screens. Granted, thermal camera is module in MW:O based on current info.

(Edit) Overall, with ground search radars and other sensors I think it's fair to assume fluffwise that smoke is not very practical in 'mech vs. 'mech combat in BTU.

Edited by Gigaton, 17 April 2012 - 08:17 AM.