224 replies to this topic

[Paladin1]

Aegis Kleais™, on 21 March 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

A dev already confirmed no Light has died in a single alpha strike from another enemy. I think you might be surprised that the game won't be a 1:1 BT translation from lore.

Actually, go look at today's Dev chat. We now have proof of a Jenner dying to a one-shot from an AC/20.

[Mechteric]

Paladin1, on 21 March 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

Actually, go look at today's Dev chat. We now have proof of a Jenner dying to a one-shot from an AC/20.

it doesn't say if he was already a little damaged though, so wouldn't assume too much

Quote

[ENRIQUE] During a playtest driving a Jenner, I realized the full power of the AC/20 when I was wiped out with a well-placed shot by Paul’s Atlas… I could hear that scoundrel’s evil cackle from the other side of the office. I learned never to approach an Atlas in a straight line again: zigzagging is a must, using Jenner’s speed to your advantage…,or sneak on ‘em from the back.

[Paladin1]

CapperDeluxe, on 21 March 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

it doesn't say if he was already a little damaged though, so wouldn't assume too much

Going on what I know of the Jenner's armor, I'd say he hadn't been hit yet. An AC/20 will core a Jenner with a single shot if the shot is placed right.

[John Wolf]

Hence the standard rule of scout mechs. If you're in range of a mech with an AC20? You've failed.

[Mechteric]

Paladin1, on 21 March 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

Going on what I know of the Jenner's armor, I'd say he hadn't been hit yet. An AC/20 will core a Jenner with a single shot if the shot is placed right.

In the boardgame yes, but a single AC20 from an actual Mechwarrior game has never killed a fresh Jenner (or similar light mech).

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 21 March 2012 - 10:10 AM.

[FireBlood]

CapperDeluxe, on 21 March 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

In the boardgame yes, but a single AC20 from an actual Mechwarrior game has never killed a fresh Jenner (or similar light mech).

Thats funny cuz just the other day I decimated a jenner in one shot with an AC20 in MW2 Mercs

[RedHairDave]

one ultra ac20 can down a light easy. one normal ac20 cant quite do it i thought. the internals are 15 points and the armour on the lightest is 6, isnt it.

[Mechteric]

FireBlood, on 21 March 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

Thats funny cuz just the other day I decimated a jenner in one shot with an AC20 in MW2 Mercs

MW2 also had messed up damage on the lasers and PPCs, so for the sake of my argument I'll leave MW2's damage model out since they clearly weren't meant for multiplayer. So the better examples for damage values would be from a modern Mechwarrior would be MW3, MW4, and MWLL.

[forcestormx]

At least one-shotting will be difficult and probably uncommon, unlike in WoT...

[LackofCertainty]

Zypher, on 20 March 2012 - 08:03 AM, said:

Who knows what will happen once it is released, but those of you who think it's a lights pilots fault that they are hit by something like an AC20 are being ridiculous. A mech, even a light can only move so fast, a weapon will always travel much faster and a good gunner is going to be able to hit a light with almost any weapon. This isn't table top where you have roll modifiers. A pro pilot or gunner is going to able to hit fairly consistently even against lights. It happens in MWLL all the time, luckily the armor is scaled up so much that lights can usually take an alpha against anything but the heaviest armed mechs.

The AC20 is a short range weapon. Range is being factored into the game. Aka, if I shoot an AC 20 at someone 1000m away, it's going to have a lot of drop and even if I get a miraculous hit it will do reduced damage. (devs have said as much)

If you're in a light and you get into AC 20 range/firing arc, you're doing it wrong. Not to mention most AC 20's are torso mounted affairs. (which means the guy trying to peg you with it will have 2nd reticule delay on aiming)

The point of light mechs are to recon/ambush. You're meant to keep at extreme range and be a detection platform, or sneak around the battlefield, popping the big slow heavies/assaults in their juicy rear armor. You're -not- meant to charge straight at an atlas in your jenner and somehow expect you to outgun a guy who's armor weighs as much as your entire mech.

Edited by LackofCertainty, 21 March 2012 - 11:21 AM.

[Pvt Dancer]

VF5SS, on 21 March 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:

Doesn't this beg the question though, if this problem keeps happening across nearly three decades of Mechwarrior games then aren't these concepts simply unworkable in a real time environment? Hit points are a perfectly acceptable abstraction of health and armor values in table top and video games. However, if unquestioned marriage to the source material produces nothing but jogging turrets with all their armor being irrelevant because the system does nothing to deter focusing on the singular part that causes the quickest death then perhaps the system itself is flawed and needs to be changed. Even Armored Core managed to implement a sum total hitpoint system by simply adding defensive ratings to each individual part.

Even if no one can be one-shotted, there is still the problem of being two or three shotted. Weapon cooldown would have to be drastically lengthened to prevent the same slugging matches.

Surely there is more to Battletech that is appealing than chaining it to a style of gameplay first created in 1989 and has remained relatively unchanged. The medium has progressed so much since then. While the basics like FPS games and platformers have evolved, the Mechwarrior games are like a strange anachronism in the face of game development.

What you consider a problem is something I don't consider a problem. The 3025 era of Battletech rarily had a mech go down to a alpha strike because of the weight to tonnage ratio for equipment. When Clan tech came out, with Gauss Rifles, ER PPCs, and other weapontry /upgunned/ the mechs so that they could pack in more guns but also had the heat sinks and no draw backs (same armor or better and same speed or better). That is where the game /really/ became unplayable IMO, because a Clan 25 ton Commando could run up, alpha strike a mech 2-3 times it size and blow it up.

Guess what... we /are/ going to have that tech, we /are/ going to have to deal with that issue (balance wise) and /that/ is more scary to me than you being worried about someone being one shotted. Your making a mountain out of a mole hill. There will be a bigger damn problem if you /CAN't/ kill a light with a AC 20 and you /will/ lose more players because of that then little Timmy the 6 year old power gamer who wants near invincibility. It is a two way street, and if you don't want to drive on it, get off the road. Armored Core is /not/ Battletech. If I wanted to play Armored Core, I would, but I consider it to be a sub-par knock off of Battletech. I want the real thing, done right, using the exsisting rules as it's base, as it should be.... or I am not playing Battletech/Mechwarrior.

[Pht]

Yeach, on 20 March 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

I don't agree with the solaris box set.

Agree with what in the solaris box set? The 2.5 second turns?

I don't think it really matters what you or I disagree with; the lore is what it is; we don't get to establish it.

Quote

Even though heat is a factor, it is less of a factor for ACs...

Yes, and? Of course it isn't. They have other extra added factors like ammo count concerns, weapon weights, and that their ammo is explosive when hit...

But ultimately their dps is still limited by how much heat they generate; and their dps is much higher because they have other concerns to deal with beyond an exhorbitant heat curve.

Heat is the mechanic that controls damage over time in a battlemech.

Quote

Correct me if I am wrong but Solaris rules do not lower the damage per the 2.5 seconds segments so an AC20 could theoretically fire 4 times resulting in 80 damage compared to 20 damage in a TT turn. Makes combat much quicker than it should be IMO.

They even acknowledgeded that the change would make the weapons balance different. The solaris box set was made for a very specific thing; 'mech deuling, solaris style. The reason I pointed out the reduced time is to show that the 10 second time is not set in stone.

[Iulianus]

OK, break this down into the basics of what it is, a first person shooter, and examine other games of that genre. There are others that have fast, weak, types that are able to be one-shotted.

One of the more successful free 2 play fps games: Team Fortress 2 has scouts and assassins. Either of which can be pretty easily one-shotted by the "medium" or "heavy" classes. They can also take out heavies, when played right. But the game is balanced. People are able to choose the class that best suits their own style of play.

I really doubt that a one-shot kill is going to deter people from playing, as long as the game is balanced and people have decent choices early in the game. If the game truly is balanced, then there's no need to keep heavier mechs away from players in the beginning.

Edited by Iulianus, 21 March 2012 - 11:50 AM.

[HaNN1BLe]

I wouldn't mind giving it a shot.. I mean hell if they are lucky enough to hit a fast smaller mech maybe it will work. But yea if targeting is too easy them something will have to be done. That said I would at least like to try the current rule set

[Steel Talon]

Even if not destroyed, light mech should be knocked down by direct AC/20 hit

[Pht]

Iulianus, on 21 March 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

OK, break this down into the basics of what it is, a first person shooter, and examine other games of that genre.

An MW video game is not a FPS.

About the only meaningful way to define an FPS any more is to say that they are games where you are in direct control of whatever weapons your in-game avatar uses; with no interface layers between the avatar and the weapons.

MW is a game that, by it's very definition, is about imitating what it's like to pilot a battlemech in combat; and in a battlemech you don't have direct control of the weapons, with no interface layers bewteen. The pilot does indicate what's to be shot at, but it's the 'mech that actually calculates where the weapons need to be pointed to hit what's being aimed at by the pilot and it's the 'mech that actually moves the weapons to get them physically aligned to hit that point.

If you want to be particular, an mw video game is a first-person armored combat piloting simulator game.

Edited by Pht, 21 March 2012 - 12:08 PM.

[ZnSeventeen]

Okay, so far haven't all big guns been torso mounted? Unless I am gravely mistaken it will be pretty easy for a light to avoid a torso mounted anything. Going up on a small hill should make it practically impossible, and jumping will make it temporarily impossible I would think. Unless Hunchbacks are able to limbo. So, yeah, if I get one shotted in a light by an AC/20, I will take it as a learning exercise, and try to never be directly in front of a big torso, within 300 meters.

[Joseph Calvert]

One shot kills are part of the Battletech game. It's going to happen. It's just a matter of when.

[Hyperius]

Pht, on 21 March 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

An MW video game is not a FPS.

About the only meaningful way to define an FPS any more is to say that they are games where you are in direct control of whatever weapons your in-game avatar uses; with no interface layers between the avatar and the weapons.

MW is a game that, by it's very definition, is about imitating what it's like to pilot a battlemech in combat; and in a battlemech you don't have direct control of the weapons, with no interface layers bewteen. The pilot does indicate what's to be shot at, but it's the 'mech that actually calculates where the weapons need to be pointed to hit what's being aimed at by the pilot and it's the 'mech that actually moves the weapons to get them physically aligned to hit that point.

If you want to be particular, an mw video game is a first-person armored combat piloting simulator game.

That's a strangely specific definition of an FPS. An FPS is basically a game that takes place in a first person perspective and you shoot at stuff. Of course this game will also fit into the simulation genre making it a First Person Shooter Simulator. It just happens to be about mechs. Also, what was the point of this comment? Everything else he said in the comment you quoted from was relevant and valid. Not trying to be a jackass just wondering if I missed the point.

[Calon Farstar]

Brigand, on 21 March 2012 - 06:32 AM, said:

Good idea. But you forgot about torso twist speed. Slower torso twist at bigger chassis would allow smaller 'Mech to perform hit-and-run tactics and flanking maneuvres.
I concern more in another problem, which follows from this tread. Problem (to my mind), that so frustrated me in WoT. What if you would be able to see only assault 'Mechs on a battlefield?

That is.

I thought I addressed that....slow town the torso twist spee on larger chasis.

Another thought is to give all the recon mechs TAG and have alot of Arrow IV's sitting around to help out now and then!