224 replies to this topic

[SteelWarrior]

My opinion of the subject.

Played league NBT 4 Mercs for almost 2 years. Was also involved in MW3 online and I physically own every mechwarrior title to be released, also a long time table top player of Battletech.

Nothing wrong with 1 shot kills. It happens, its also a realistic event in some cases (AC20 to the head. Lucky critical, etc etc). The problem came when the Mechwarrior series allowed you to cheese the hell out of your mech. For example taking the heaviest mech possible and loading it was a many high impact weapons as possible (boats for short). Boats were common. They were the norm. The league teams who wanted to win were forced to adopt Boat tatics and spam ER large lasers etc etc.

When this became the main steam thing to do it was impossible to take a classic style load out. Now when you actually look at the board game that Mechwarrior is based off of, not every mech was built for a slug fest. Recon mechs were lightly armed, or armed to deal with infantry and vehicles. Mediums were your average ground pounder skirmish mechs. Heavies were the rare heavy hitting power behind a force. And assualts were damned near non exsistant on the battlefield. The problem comes when the game only allowed for a Slug fest. Where in mechwarrior 4 mercs did taking a light mech really benefit anything. Where in MW4 mercs did taking machine guns allow you to fend off waves of infantry.

And if you were to further investigate theres a fundimental flaw with being able to customize a mech with ethier the MW4 style hard point system or the classic battletech slots system, both of which are unrealistic. Using the reference material from the battletech universe it states that its very difficult or impossible to modify stock equipment, Which is what gave the clans Omni systems such an advantage over the inner sphere. A light mech and an assualt mech both have the same amount of space based on the classic system, however you couldnt mount a heavy weapon on a light mech where ever you wanted without throwing off its balance. For example you couldnt realistically take a Jenner, strip off all its weapons and then throw a single massive large laser on its right arm and nothing in the left and expect it to be able to operate normaly. And there in lies the problem, because alot of the Battletech mechs were designed the way they were for a reason or purpose that cant be incorporated into the video game series. Example of this would be a Cyclops, where its head can be removed and turned into a mobile command center, well in the video game you could mount a weapon in the head space slot but realistically wouldnt have room.

Anyhow 1 Shot kills will only be a problem if MWO turns out to be another team death match, slug fest with boat style mechs. If there is VALUE in recon, IF there is value in speed and agility, then you will find 1 shot kill mechs wont be as common, and they will be countered.


This is my 2 cents based on years of expirence with the series.

Edited by SteelWarrior, 20 March 2012 - 09:55 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Quote

"If there is VALUE in recon, IF there is value in speed and agility,"

There won't be a Full blown MechLab.

[Markocius]

si1foo, on 20 March 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

ok im 90% sure this should not happen i mean if you get hit in the chest you should be 1 shot but if you get hit in the arm or a leg that part should be destroyed but not the hole mech

Just a question, have you played the Table Top Game that MW:O is to be based off of? I am not sure, but I think I read somewhere that the Devs are basing this game off the Table Top Rules as much as they can. That being said, there are 'mechs on the field that can and will withstand MULTIPLE hits from an AC-20 to the Chest.

A Gauss or an AC-20 to the Head, you're dead. According to the rules, the Damage for a Gauss Cannon is 15 pts. The Head can hold 9 pts of armor and 3 Internal Structure pts. Which means it can take a total of 11 pts of damage and still be functional. The 12th pt kills it.

Now, if they have the physical attacks like clubs, punches and kicks, I will be extremely excited. (I know it is in the works, just not going to be ready for launch.) When that happens, I expect to see the "Triple Myomer Strength" system implemented. Which means a club from an 85 ton 'Mech can kill everything in one hit.

So yeah, I am looking forward to what this brings us.

Thanks,
Marko

[Togg Bott]

i am reminded of another game. not quite as old as elite. but just as brutal and unforgiving. "Arcanum" , it was a game that allowed you to make stupid mistakes, then punished you for them. are there going to be lucky headshots on lights with a guass/PPC. yeah prolly. crap happens, then you get over it and go on remembering that this, no matter how fun/serious, is just a game. if someone gets one shotted and decides to emo/ rage quit, then so be it. those of us who enjoy the challenge will stay.

[Reno Blade]

i just remember a scene from (i think) the novel with the camachos cabaleros where one wasp/hornet (20ton light) jumped on a building to check the incoming forces and got hit by a erPPC from a Masakari in the head.
1 shot ofc.
oh,... and we saw the atlas dropping 1-shot with the hunchis AC20 in its head?
as the others said already, if you dont have enough armor to get hit by a big gun, dont jump it
your job is the scouting, targeting and backstabbing one

[Roh]

My view? If you are in a 20 ton light and give the 100 ton assault a chance to hit you with the big stuff.. That is all on you.

Now sometimes lucky shots happen. If they nerf the big guns like the AC 20 for whiners.. I will be a sad panda.

Oh and I will probably spend most of my time in medium or light mechs. So.. Im not trying to defend my ability to pick on the little guys. Im one of them.

Edited by Roh, 20 March 2012 - 10:21 AM.

[Red1769]

I can't believe we're actually talking about this...but I guess I'll put in my two cents...

As many has said already, crap happens. You can get a head shot on any mech. Lights/mediums are probably more difficult because they're faster, but also much less armor. But either way, it's difficult to get one off unless they're standing still, even if you know where to aim. I expect this to be extremely rare, but does happen. Maybe if a couple of assaults or heavies find a light not in a good enough hiding spot and alpha strike, you might get a one shot kill on the body. I have yet to get a one shot kill, even on MW4 Mercs against a light when I'm in an assault. Possible, but unlikely.

I believe I saw someone say it, but if you're one heck of a good shot, you'll still hit lights fairly regularly when they show up. That's where gunnery skills come into play. Not so much giving them a chance to hit you, unless you stay hidden and not even get into the fight and just relay enemy positions. That's really the only way to not give them a chance to hit you, as everytime you reveal yourself, even to backstab them, you do give them a chance to hit you. So you better be a better pilot and use your mobility to your advantage and hope that big boy's gunnery skills aren't very good. Tactics are everything. Environment factors in too, along with many other variables.

Edited by Red1769, 20 March 2012 - 10:37 AM.

[Sprouticus]

1) We dont know if 1 shots will even be possible

2) If they are Im ok with that. If Im in a 25 ton mech and get within 250m of a hunchie or Atlas, I deserve what I get. Pilots in lights SHOULD be terrified of the AC20.

3) So far there has not been any indication of a zoom function. Which means if you stay at range in a light it may be VERY hard to get hit with a Gauss round (if they even have them in the game on launch)


Oh, and for those of you who are too young, I still remember the pure joy of getting a docking computer in Elite 25 years later. The feeling was almost visceral. I agree with the OP and the linked article on Elite. They literally dont make them like they used to.....

Edited by Sprouticus, 20 March 2012 - 10:39 AM.

[Acer Lerxt]

SteelWarrior, on 20 March 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

Anyhow 1 Shot kills will only be a problem if MWO turns out to be another team death match, slug fest with boat style mechs.

If there is VALUE in recon, IF there is value in speed and agility, then you will find 1 shot kill mechs wont be as common, and they will be countered. This is my 2 cents based on years of expirence with the series.

That bears repeating.

It's really on the game development team to make light/medium sized mechs worth playing. If there's no point in it (other than entertainment value for heavies/assaults who get to 1 shot them occasionally), people won't play them-- and conversely, will always play the big guns.

[Aegis Kleais]

Hangfire, on 20 March 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

Extract from ablog about an old 1980's game,

"
If there's a lesson in Elite for modern developers, it's this--don't baby the player. A babied player doesn't grow up. A "challenge" fails to interest him; it becomes just an annoyance to be bypassed by a cheat-code. Make the player work to overcome a challenge from the get-go, and it's an investment. Make the player realize, "Uh oh, this isn't going to be easy." Of course, and I know, there are players who will immediately stop playing at that point. I say, have the integrity to let them go. Catering to this type of person will only ruin your game, and, in all sincerity, reduce the value your original game had to offer.

As a professor teaching 18-19 year olds, it depresses me to see how many of them have been conditioned by the baby-stepping games of the last five years. I only wish that more of them could be challenged as thoroughly and rewarded as graciously as I was, weaned on games like Elite and Pool of Radiance. Those games taught the lesson--great rewards for great efforts. Modern games are all too willing to offer even greater rewards, but for little to no effort. The idea is that they'll offer so many rewards and incentives that the player will be reduced to a sort of sensation-seeking monkey, pushing a button that briefly flares some pleasure region of his spinal cortex. Bah. Leave such games to the plebs.

For the Elite, I have another."

http://www.armchaira...om/neo/node/750

Too true.

Due to the "The world owes me everything" attitude in today's youths, they are big on wanting a reward for actions. Achievements, recognition and status boosts are all of the utmost importance to them. They want to be thanked or appreciated for every small action that is in and of itself, not even a feat.

When a game doesn't offer me a challenge, I look elsewhere. A game that gives me something for little to no effort leaves me feeling hollow as if I was interviewed by mainstream news for winning the "Participant" ribbon in an event rather than the gold.

[Coralld]

I'm planning on using mostly Mediums and lights and the possibility of being killed by a one shot really doesn't bother me. But then again it begs the question, why would you wast a Gauss and AC/20 rounds on a Light mech? Last time I checked you only have a small hand full of rounds for those weapons. So to be honest, I'd much rather have some one wast their powerful and very limited ammo on my light little mech then doing some real damage on my friends in their Heavies and Assault.

[Namwons]

i honestly doubt they are going to allow one shot kills (may to the cockpit) but i see it as at least two shot, one to go through the armor, then one to destroy the internals. dont think you will get to destroy armor and internals all in one shot. who knows till we play though

[Tryg]

That would depend on the battle situation. If you're up against a couple mechs, sometimes taking out the light harasser might be the best option to increase the probability of survival. If you can take the light harasser out in a single shot, it's worth the ammo expenditure to be able to immediately turn focus to his heavier comrade, whereas if you focus first on the heavy, that light is going to really dig into your rear armor. And in a situation where odds are not in your favor, sometimes taking a pilot out of the picture, even if he's piloting something less 'intimidating' then a heavy or assault, can help tip the odds back in your team's favor. And if you're lucky enough to kill the light and inflict damage on the bigger buddy before you go, all the better.

[Red1769]

Quote

Due to the "The world owes me everything" attitude in today's youths, they are big on wanting a reward for actions. Achievements, recognition and status boosts are all of the utmost importance to them. They want to be thanked or appreciated for every small action that is in and of itself, not even a feat.

I can't help but feel that's an overgeneralization, especially with the time of writing. I'm not exactly far off from the age group you're talking about (only three years older). I do admit that it is getting worse (both parents are teachers and I hear a lot of stories from them), but to say that all of them are like that isn't accurate. I fail to see how this relates to the topic though. One shot kills aren't babying anyone nor really helping anyone as they're extremely difficult to pull off. Care to enlighten me?

Quote

why would you waste a Gauss and AC/20 rounds on a Light mech?

Until I add one or two+ tons of ammo to my Gauss or AC/20. Then I have ammo to spare against lights as well as those in the same weight class. But those aren't the only big guns. PPCs are pretty devastating too. For the rest, I quote Tryg.

[Coralld]

That's a good point, but while that enemy focuses on me, which turns his attention away from my friends means less bigger guns focusing on them, and I am not planning on hanging around and go toe to toe with them in a light, that's just stupid. I will use the terrain and my speed to the best of my advantage and do hit and runs and be a over all pain in their shiny metal a$$. Which is one of the jobs of the lights by keeping the enemy unbalanced and distracted.

Edited by Coralld, 20 March 2012 - 11:25 AM.

[Tryg]

And that would be the smart thing to do, I merely gave an example or two of why one might waste a couple rounds of that high-impact low quantity ammunition on a light. Wasn't trying to defend or invalidate any particular tactic. If you can outrun the shots, all the better as then he truely has 'wasted' the rounds, gaining nothing for the expense.

[Jake Valeck]

from the looks of it in the vids 1 shots are a thing of the past let alone getting any alpha strike off quickly and accurately with out some serious practice/skill/luck. as far as legging i justs dont understand why so many players whine about it being done. why dont you just complain that they allways shoot your center torso and then complain to the devs that you cant buy invincibility codes fromt he game store?". just wait for the "Free" beta and see how it is before you discuss how bad its going to be for you.

[Coralld]

Oh I understand Tryg. Just saying.

[Red1769]

And I got ninja'd...but I still wouldn't necessarily say wasted, it got you running the heck away so that he can continue battering at your buddy. Though the brief pause might be enough to give your buddy an advantage, it depends on what happened before in that point in time. The example was probably a little extreme as I would hope to have some lights and mediums on my side too to keep those harassers busy until those battles are decided. Like Tryg, I'm not trying to defend or invalidate any particular tactic. So many variables to take into consideration when talking about this kind of thing.

Quote

from the looks of it in the vids 1 shots are a thing of the past let alone getting any alpha strike off quickly and accurately with out some serious practice/skill/luck. as far as legging i justs dont understand why so many players whine about it being done. why dont you just complain that they allways shoot your center torso and then complain to the devs that you cant buy invincibility codes fromt he game store?". just wait for the "Free" beta and see how it is before you discuss how bad its going to be for you

I wouldn't completely rule out one shots, considering there is the cockpit to shoot at and that's the least armored part of any mech, but as you say, it would take some serious practice, skill, and luck to do it, a rare thing to occur. Definitely agree with everything else you said.

[si1foo]

Markocius, on 20 March 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

Just a question, have you played the Table Top Game that MW:O is to be based off of? I am not sure, but I think I read somewhere that the Devs are basing this game off the Table Top Rules as much as they can. That being said, there are 'mechs on the field that can and will withstand MULTIPLE hits from an AC-20 to the Chest.

A Gauss or an AC-20 to the Head, you're dead. According to the rules, the Damage for a Gauss Cannon is 15 pts. The Head can hold 9 pts of armor and 3 Internal Structure pts. Which means it can take a total of 11 pts of damage and still be functional. The 12th pt kills it.

Now, if they have the physical attacks like clubs, punches and kicks, I will be extremely excited. (I know it is in the works, just not going to be ready for launch.) When that happens, I expect to see the "Triple Myomer Strength" system implemented. Which means a club from an 85 ton 'Mech can kill everything in one hit.

So yeah, I am looking forward to what this brings us.

Thanks,
Marko

true but adding 1 shot kill to hiting one in arm doesn't sound right having it in a video game but having it in a table top is very understandable but having it in a game just seems wrong but i havn't played the game yet so i dont have knownledge of how the weapon works and if it has any downsides but from what i can tell from what i hear on here it sounds really powerful