41 replies to this topic

[CoffiNail]

Thorn Hallis, on 23 March 2012 - 08:41 AM, said:

Yeah, if you call it "fair" to intentionally drive your opponent far below the cutdown just to make him lose face.

Welcome to bidding

[Sidney]

GB_Krubarax, on 23 March 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

But CW and CGB are still "Allies"

Wolf and Ghost Bear have a long grudge against one another that stems back to the Wolverine Annihilation- out of compassion (later rewritten by Nicholas Kerensky to be 'jealousy') the Ghost Bears undermined Wolf's attempt to Annihilate the Wolverines to embarass them.

The two Clans have been at odds ever since.

The only reason the two Clans are not fighting during the invasion is that they're not allowed to under order by the Grand Council. Just like the Nova Cats and Jaguars 'worked together' at Luthien, or the Falcons and Wolves share a border.

Scanlon, on 23 March 2012 - 08:04 AM, said:

Im just trying to understand the basics to make an informed decision about what house I join. As opposed of whose logo I like best.

Just trying to be clear on who I am, who my friends are, and who my enemies are.

You are whichever faction you finally settle on.

You have no friends.

And everyone is your enemy

It (generally) breaks down like this:

Inner Sphere:
Federated Suns: A mix of English and French culture, pretty close to the first world nations of today. However, they ignore their poor, backward, worlds- a fair portion of them are racist against asians, and, like the Lyrans, you're blood and who you know determines if you're eating delicacies on New Avalon or barely getting by with a rake on some farm in the Outback. While they're often considered aggressors by many, the early days of the game painted them as the 'good guys' because of the Cold War.

Lyran Commonwealth/Alliance: Germanic culture. Rich. Plagued with 'social generals' that 'earned' their rank due to their nobility rather than ability. Many a young Lyran has died on the front lines due to his commander was more concerned about getting his caviar than saving his men. Otherwise, not much different than the Federated Suns.

Draconis Combine: Imperial Japan, essentially. Oppressive. "Bad guys" until the Clans show up, then they're "Good guys" when their new leader downplayed tradition. They're 'honourable', and model themselves after samurai of old and bushido. Except of course for the original sourcebook of theirs that explained the only time you surrender is if it allows you to kill the enemy (such as using a bomb to take you and the enemy commander out). For that reason, you're not supposed to take any prisoners- kill any enemy that surrenders...unless you think you can get others to surrender too. Then kill them all. Yeah... 'good guys' Also, communist.

Cappellan Confederation: The original, other, 'evil', communist faction. Culturally, they're ancient China. Most of their leaders of late have been insane, and employ secret police that brutalizes, tortures, and abuses the civilians. Accused of not giving everything to the Chancellor? You'll disappear. Once the Clans show up, they're less 'bad guys' just like the Combine.

Free Worlds League: Baltic states. Think Yugoslavia. Dozens of states combined into one 'league'- they're the only 'true' democratic Great House...which has been overtaken by a dictator, more or less. The League usually spends its time fighting itself rather than the its enemies.

Comstar/Word of Blake: The 'phone company'.that's essentially the Catholic church during the Dark Ages. They are a 'neutral', religious order that maintains the communications equipment of the Inner Sphere while guarding technology from the rest of the Inner Sphere through covert Ops. Killing scientists, turning Houses against each other...they do it all. Post Clan invasion their more conservative portion splinters off into the 'Word of Blake' that is less open about their methods eventually launching outright war.

Clans:

Mongols mixed with Huxley's "Brave New World" novel. They are descendants of the Star League army (more on that in a bit) that sacrificed their humanity. They breed their warriors in iron wombs, genetically engineering them and condition them against concepts such as love and death. Their warriors are trained from as early as they can walk, and use live munitions, resulting in deaths while still children.

Non genetically engineered warriors and civilians are further more treated as second class citizens.

In the end

All the factions are the same in one regard: They're trying to re-establish the 'Star League' (The Roman empire) which everyone remembers as a 'Golden Era'. Humanity's greatest achievement, when everyone lived happily. A lot of that is nostalgia and rose tinted glasses, but it's hard to argue that the average standard of living and technology wasn't much better during the Star League era.

The difference, I suppose, is how far each faction is willing to go to justify the greater good. They're all 'good guys' in that respect.

[Coralld]

@ Thorn Hallis
That's one of the reasons why I love Clan Sea Fox/Diamond Shark, they are the most un-Clan like Clan out there, even though they get into bidding matches they about half the time never fallow through with it as they bring a little larger force then they say they will using the fact that they mostly field light to medium mechs with a handful of heavies and they for the most part don't fallow Zellbrigen. Now this tends to PO a number of Clanners who call fowl, but they usual respond with this by saying 'we don't care' or 'not my problem'.

Edited by Coralld, 23 March 2012 - 09:32 AM.

[Scanlon]

Seabear, on 23 March 2012 - 08:29 AM, said:

As the game opens, the IS is recovering from the 4th Succession War and the War of 3039. While technically at peace, the border areas are in a state of constant flux due to the longstanding fueds between the houses. There will be strikes and counter strikes that "adjust" the boundaries but no all out major battles, if the lore is followed. When the clans show up, all the IS will focus on one goal for the first time in hundreds of years and should lead to the creation of a new Star League. We will have to see how that plays out in the game. The clans will probably introduce a new faction(s) , Comstar, within the IS. Just don't expect to play a merc associated with the clans.



As has been pointed out, there are no good guys or bad guys in this universe; every faction has positive strengths and glaring weaknesses. Check out sarna.net for detailed info on the houses and clans. Most people find they are drawn to one faction or another. Follow your heart in making your choice as you can't make a mistake. Visit the forums and see which group feels best to you. Welcome aboard and enjoy the ride!

-This is pretty much what Im looking for, it really seems to sum up what's going on at the opening of the game.
-I just have this lone-wolf banner because I havnt decided on a house yet.
I will, thank you.

Sidney, on 23 March 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

Wolf and Ghost Bear have a long grudge against one another that stems back to the Wolverine Annihilation- out of compassion (later rewritten by Nicholas Kerensky to be 'jealousy') the Ghost Bears undermined Wolf's attempt to Annihilate the Wolverines to embarass them.

The two Clans have been at odds ever since.

The only reason the two Clans are not fighting during the invasion is that they're not allowed to under order by the Grand Council. Just like the Nova Cats and Jaguars 'worked together' at Luthien, or the Falcons and Wolves share a border.



You are whichever faction you finally settle on.

You have no friends.

And everyone is your enemy


It (generally) breaks down like this:

Inner Sphere:
Federated Suns: A mix of English and French culture, pretty close to the first world nations of today. However, they ignore their poor, backward, worlds- a fair portion of them are racist against asians, and, like the Lyrans, you're blood and who you know determines if you're eating delicacies on New Avalon or barely getting by with a rake on some farm in the Outback. While they're often considered aggressors by many, the early days of the game painted them as the 'good guys' because of the Cold War.

Lyran Commonwealth/Alliance: Germanic culture. Rich. Plagued with 'social generals' that 'earned' their rank due to their nobility rather than ability. Many a young Lyran has died on the front lines due to his commander was more concerned about getting his caviar than saving his men. Otherwise, not much different than the Federated Suns.

Draconis Combine: Imperial Japan, essentially. Oppressive. "Bad guys" until the Clans show up, then they're "Good guys" when their new leader downplayed tradition. They're 'honourable', and model themselves after samurai of old and bushido. Except of course for the original sourcebook of theirs that explained the only time you surrender is if it allows you to kill the enemy (such as using a bomb to take you and the enemy commander out). For that reason, you're not supposed to take any prisoners- kill any enemy that surrenders...unless you think you can get others to surrender too. Then kill them all. Yeah... 'good guys' Also, communist.

Cappellan Confederation: The original, other, 'evil', communist faction. Culturally, they're ancient China. Most of their leaders of late have been insane, and employ secret police that brutalizes, tortures, and abuses the civilians. Accused of not giving everything to the Chancellor? You'll disappear. Once the Clans show up, they're less 'bad guys' just like the Combine.

Free Worlds League: Baltic states. Think Yugoslavia. Dozens of states combined into one 'league'- they're the only 'true' democratic Great House...which has been overtaken by a dictator, more or less. The League usually spends its time fighting itself rather than the its enemies.

Comstar/Word of Blake: The 'phone company'.that's essentially the Catholic church during the Dark Ages. They are a 'neutral', religious order that maintains the communications equipment of the Inner Sphere while guarding technology from the rest of the Inner Sphere through covert Ops. Killing scientists, turning Houses against each other...they do it all. Post Clan invasion their more conservative portion splinters off into the 'Word of Blake' that is less open about their methods eventually launching outright war.

Clans:

Mongols mixed with Huxley's "Brave New World" novel. They are descendants of the Star League army (more on that in a bit) that sacrificed their humanity. They breed their warriors in iron wombs, genetically engineering them and condition them against concepts such as love and death. Their warriors are trained from as early as they can walk, and use live munitions, resulting in deaths while still children.

Non genetically engineered warriors and civilians are further more treated as second class citizens.

In the end

All the factions are the same in one regard: They're trying to re-establish the 'Star League' (The Roman empire) which everyone remembers as a 'Golden Era'. Humanity's greatest achievement, when everyone lived happily. A lot of that is nostalgia and rose tinted glasses, but it's hard to argue that the average standard of living and technology wasn't much better during the Star League era.

The difference, I suppose, is how far each faction is willing to go to justify the greater good. They're all 'good guys' in that respect.

Wow, thanks for spending the time with a summary of every house, I appreciate that. Everyone seems to have pointed out the strengths and shortcomings of every house/clan. Seems like you really villianized the Cappellion Confederation and Draconis Combine, what would draw players to those factions? In fact it kind of seems like everyone sucks, haha. How am I suppose to choose?

Edited by Scanlon, 23 March 2012 - 09:33 AM.

[Coralld]

Also, Sidney is for the most part correct. If I may so elaborate a little bit. Comstar is a religious cult but its a techo-religious cult. Also, to classify the Wobies as a more conservative part of Comstar is incorrect. Conservative would imply that they stay true to their techno-religious values which is rather open and accepting for the most part when it comes to personal opinions and ideas, the Wobies on the other hand are just bat sh*t crazy and if you disagree with them in any way they kill you. To say they are like the Catholic church during the dark ages is not to far off, but the comparesion between Comstar and Word of Blake is more like comparing the Koran to Shiria Law. Both preach the similer theme of praise Alla and all that, the difference is that the Koran is more accepting and peaceful where as Shuria Law is very narrow and brutal. This was pointed out to me by my friend who is in fact Muslim when I turned him on to the BT universe. He liked Comstar, hated Word of Blake.

[Sidney]

Scanlon, on 23 March 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

-This is pretty much what Im looking for, it really seems to sum up what's going on at the opening of the game.
-I just have this lone-wolf banner because I havnt decided on a house yet.
I will, thank you.





Wow, thanks for spending the time with a summary of every house, I appreciate that. Everyone seems to have pointed out the strengths and shortcomings of every house/clan. Seems like you really villianized the Cappellion Confederation and Draconis Combine, what would draw players to those factions? In fact it kind of seems like everyone sucks, haha. How am I suppose to choose?

Not a problem.

You have to understand that Battletech was originally released back in the early 80s ('84) and the Houses were a thinly veiled 'Capitalism' versus 'Communisim'. It's no coincidence that the Cappies and Dracs were communist-like states while the Suns and Lyrans are more democratic.

It novels, especially those by Mike Stackpole, had characters that were very 'black and white'. The game has (thankfully in my opinion) evolved past that, but it's there in its roots all the same. The Confederation and Combine characters would usually twirl their evil mustaches and cackle while the Federated characters would be surrounded by forest creatures. More or less.

Up until the Clans showed up, anyway, then it was 'Inner Sphere against the Clans' and you can't have Luke hanging out without a selfish smuggler so... the Combine and Confederation softened. Everything has become more grey since.

The Confederation is still a strict police state, however, and you can read more about it on the official Battletech website: http://bg.battletech.com/?page_id=1913

As the site implies, the Confederation has several admirable qualities- the fact that they're still around, for one. They refuse to die- they defy odds and manage to hang on no matter what happens. Secret police and fanatical leaders aside, the people of the Confederation don't typically kick puppies and steal candy from babies...they look out for one another, while defending their families against the aggressive 'white devil' Hanse Davion...or George Hasek-Davion...

The Combine, similiarily has a very admirable trait in the form of their personal honour. A Drac isn't one to shirk responsibility... they fail, they'll pay the price, be it the need to cut their finger off, or commit 'seppeku'- even their criminal society who jumped at the chance to join the 'Ghost Regiments' and defend their homeland against the Clans.

There's also the 'new versus old' theme that the Jade Falcons have as well. Theodore (and the current Coordinator, Hohiro) are facing a constant balancing act between adapting tradition to survive in the modern age...without going too far and destroying the Combine. Sometimes, it might be better to retreat than fight to the death. Sometimes you have to live with your mistakes instead of taking your life to renounce your guilt.

Coralld, on 23 March 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

Conservative would imply that they stay true to their techno-religious values which is rather open and accepting for the most part when it comes to personal opinions and ideas, the Wobies on the other hand are just bat sh*t crazy and if you disagree with them in any way they kill you.

Some of the Word is 'far gone', true, but not most of them. The majority of the Word during the Jihad were not doing anything the old Comstar hadn't done.

I also point you to several precendents:

-Operation Scorpion, set in motion by Primus Mori in 3052. Which was intended to shut down all HPGs, where the ComGuards could conquer both the Inner Sphere and the Clans.

-Anton's Revolt- turning the FWL against the Wolf's Dragoons and murdering their civilians in the early 3000's to destroy them if they couldn't figure out where the Dragoons came from.

-Triggering the third Succession War

- Cutting all HPGs in the FWL to bend the League to the Order's will during the Succession Wars

- Dropping a merc unit onto Luthien during the Succession Wars to similiarially outright and openly force concessions from the Combine

- Operation Holy Shroud which went on for centuries, burning and destroying universities and research centres, assassinating scientists and political opponents

- The secret build up of approximately 100 regiments as a personal army to fight the Inner Sphere (The ComGuards)

- Stealing Warships

- The creation of the 'Five Hidden Worlds'

- ROM

Compared to the new Comstar- where Focht essentially threw everything about Comstar out the window. He shot the Primus in the face with a needler (and claimed it was a heart attack), and then 'found' documents that Waterly had supposedly kept hidden that 'proved' Blake had never intended for Comstar to be religious and that it was all Toyama's doing.

Not only did he throw the robes into the dumpster, he took everything Comstar held sacred and burned it. Instead of the belief they were supposed to bring humanity back into a golden age, he told them they were intended to protect the I.S from the Clans.

Focht abandoned Terra

And essentially dissolved Comstar into the 'ComGuards'.

I would say that the Word of Blake is more conservative and true to the original Comstar than the new one.

By a long shot.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Scanlon, on 23 March 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

How am I suppose to choose?

By reading. Take a look at some sourcebooks or maybe one or two novels. Even if you are a slow reader, the game will not be officially released for some time now. Get into it & I am sure you will find a faction that you like. In the BT community our ages vary from the teenie-boppers to the old-enough-to-be-your-grandparent & we all got into BT through different mediums. For me, it was the animated cartoon that came out in the 90s, for some, it was the board game, for others it was the video games & still there are other who got into it by reading the books.

Something captured our attention, drew us in & hooked us to this day. As with all things new, you will not who is who, where is where or what is what but as you get into it you will start to pick up on things. If you see Kurita you will know it has something to do with the Draconis Combine. If you see Kerensky, it will most likely be about the Star League or the Clans. Give yourself time. I suggest you not try to use whatever you read as a study guide & try to absorb everything. You will either overload or fizzle out. Use it as a reference. Why do clansmen say quiaff? Why does this Victor guy have Steiner-Davion at the end of his name? As you go along this will be revealed, other things will be unlocked & other things will become familiar.

If you need any source material, PM or e-mail me.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 23 March 2012 - 11:17 AM.

[IceSerpent]

GB_Krubarax, on 23 March 2012 - 07:03 AM, said:

It is not "the glorious and honorable rebel alliance against the evil galactic empire"

You mean "rebel terrorists trying to undermine the established order", right?

[Coralld]

I believe you are correct Sydney... See Scanlon, some times even us vets need a refresher. Time to read up Comstar and the Wobies again, been to damn long.

[Carl Wrede]

Bah.. you all forgot the best faction of them all.. The Free Rasalhague Republic!

[Stormwolf]

Carl Wrede, on 23 March 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

Bah.. you all forgot the best faction of them all.. The Free Rasalhague Republic!

We will never forget the FRR, it is where the Wolves/Ghost Bears live now

Edited by Stormwolf, 23 March 2012 - 03:52 PM.

[Slapshot]

Pretty funny that I never really met any FRR fans until this game went into development, I like how much attention they get now.

[Scanlon]

I did some reading about clans, seems they follow a code sort of like a perverse chivalry called Zellbrigen.

There are a few other rules when following Zellbrigen but a few really struck me as it concerns to gameplay in MW:O

• For instance if you and I are clan-mates and you attack an enemy, that means that you have challenged them, and I am not to engage that enemy in any circumstances even if it means your death. Or I would have dishonored you and myself.
  
• When engaging an enemy, I am not to move out of line of sight OR out of my opponents weapons range.

I mean holy **** that's serious buisness. If the clans become released and playable are the players actually suppose to honor Zellbrigen? Say a nooby like me never read any of this and just wanted to play, what would stop them from just going to town and ruining a 'real' clanners experiance?

Does this only apply to duels and not battles?

Edited by Scanlon, 23 March 2012 - 09:53 PM.

[Scanlon]

In the intro video to MW3 The madcat is stomping to the city when the atlas walks out and blasts him, the two start shooting at one another. Then another mech pops out I think a mad dog and fires a bunch of missiles at him while quiping in "Die clanner". Isnt this breaking the rules?

Edited by Scanlon, 23 March 2012 - 09:57 PM.

[Krubarax]

He says "die clanner" because he is not a "clanner" himself - and therefore dont give a rats a$$ about zellbrigen.
Further more, MW3 takes place long after the initial invasion.
The clans initial invasion took place over a time period of about 2-3 years and was conducted in 5 waves of attacks.
All clans exept Clan Jade Falcon basicly threw Zellbrigen out the window after the third wave, more or less (about 4/5 months into the invasion), since the barbarians of the Inner Sphere clearly showed that they lack the honor to deserve beig treated in a civilized way,

If the Clans operation revival would have succeeded, humanity would have experienced a new Star League and a new golden age.
Unfortunantly, the devious and sneaky politicians would not have that.

Long live the Dominion

[Derek Icelord]

Scanlon, on 23 March 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

In the intro video to MW3 The madcat is stomping to the city when the atlas walks out and blasts him, the two start shooting at one another. Then another mech pops out I think a mad dog and fires a bunch of missiles at him while quiping in "Die clanner". Isnt this breaking the rules?

It is also worth mentioning that the video games have frequently "broken the rules" to varying degrees and have never been considered part of the official canon.

GB_Krubarax, on 24 March 2012 - 12:16 AM, said:

*snip*
If the Clans operation revival would have succeeded, humanity would have experienced a new Star League and a new golden age.
Unfortunantly, the devious and sneaky politicians would not have that.

Yeah, 'cause the Clans are totally above petty squabbling and political maneuvering and totally willing to put aside grievances for the greater goo... oh wait.

[soulfire]

Ah the history it is a shame that many books are out of print. I have a great number of them that I have read and collected still there are others I havent got yet. What my fellow gamers here have written is pretty accurate though I tend not to think star league as ancient rome. Its all interesting stuff though with memerable char. Some books tie in with each other and others are to just show you a certain picture of a group or events. Stockplle and Greene or green have allot of the books but there are others. What Pissed off allot of fans in old days is when they came to closing the IS or new star league and clan fight they decided to kill off many of the main char. and some groups.grey death legion such. Seems like any book Green (I think was his name) wrote he killed someone or group off.
Since there is some time before this game luanches you might want to head down to your used books store and grab a couple books get the feel of the universe or read up online on the ref stuff. I dont think they write on battle tech stuff anymore I never followed the Dark age stuff though I collected some of the toy mechs I found it an excuse for whoever owned the fanchise at that time to try to create new game out of old universe so all the stuff you had before was usless (boardgame wise) and you would have to buy all new stuff.
The clans are basically groups of people who where in starleague which was sort of united nations army. He decided that IS with all its houses and intreagues was never going to change so he decided that he was going to head off taking many of the warriors with him to a different part of the universe breaking all ties with the inner sphere. He found five hospitable worlds and theycolonized those. Timed passed and his son came to be and found that the 5 worlds were just as bad as those they left so he took a bunch with him to new area. The generals son founded the clan home world Strana Mechty and founded eugenics which was bases of clans with their bloodnames and cast system. Your basic warrior society. Once Kerenskis son built up enough of an army he returned to those 5 worlds and reclaimed them then having done that back to the Inner sphere to conqurer it .
Another interesting topic running through the books is how the succession wars would hurt humanity and put them a step back in making mechs and weapons. Either through groups that would burn whole libraries or whole planets that had industrial areas on them would be distroyed with the knowledge of how to build something. Catches of Star league equipment that were hidding away become very valuable.

[Thorn Hallis]

Uhh, my eyes hurt.

[soulfire]

mad dog or vulture may have been captured or salvaged clan mech that the is lance got. Prob wolf dragoons because they had the fireflies.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Scanlon, on 23 March 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

In the intro video to MW3 The madcat is stomping to the city when the atlas walks out and blasts him, the two start shooting at one another. Then another mech pops out I think a mad dog and fires a bunch of missiles at him while quiping in "Die clanner". Isnt this breaking the rules?

The forces who did this were of the IS. It is not their rules.