220 replies to this topic

[Grey Black]

Nakuru, on 23 October 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

Raw numerical advantage: To use that as an argument in Battletech/Mechwarrior is to forget how easily any of the Houses hold onto the worlds they conquer from their enemies under any circumstances and ignore the fact that Battletech itself ignores this statistic. Total population tends to not matter within the confines of Battletech, so using it in this argument is pointless. And if you're going to use this for the IS vs Clan argument, you also need to consider it for the conflicts between the Successor States as well. It gets tricky and messy, and some of the difficulties spread from your final point.
Inner Sphere tactics/Total Warfare: There are many ways of fighting wars without striking at supply lines and roadside bombs as well. A skilled Clan tactician can take into account Inner Sphere tactics and minimize losses to this, and using this as an argument assumes that this tactic is all it takes to win a war. Plus, if the Inner Sphere attacks supply lines, then wouldn't it be an ***** commander to not adapt by sending defenders to escort their shipments if this tactic is being used?

Information Warfare: You forget that the Clans use more than one method of deploying forces. The Clans can choose to bid their forces, where they openly announce what they are using. Or they can invoke/request safcon, in which no one is required to declare the forces that either side is using. This means that each side can be just as blind as the other as to what forces are fielded. Furthermore, the Clans aren't completely opposed to using underhanded tactics as long as they keep it within their warrior code and will fight as warriors on equal ground, and even then, there are some who have no limits to how far they will go. (Example: Clan Wolf's "defeat" by the Jade Falcons during the Great Refusal) Besides, that's also assuming that the Clans have no intelligence networks. They, in fact, do.
Problems of Unity: The main argument of this thread is whether the Clans could hold the IS. If one of the Clans were to become declared IlClan, ideally, the rest of the Clans would fall in line and declare loyalty. Realistically, this would actually be more complex than that, but because of the fragmented nature of the Inner Sphere already, it's more of a matter of keeping the Sphere unified than it is the Clans holding onto it.

Bidding: A smart Clan commander wouldn't trust the IS commanders very much, would he/she? A smart one would remember what happened to the Smoke Jaguars at Luthien and keep that in mind when bidding, if they were to use it. As I said before, though, the Clans can also request/invoke safcon, which somewhat removes the advantage the IS has through the use of deceit. In this case, neither Clan nor IS is expected to declare their forces, which leaves each side just as blind as the other. The Clans don't see bidding as necessary, just preferred, and they are willing to use safcon.

Zellbrigen: The Clans started to rethink their use of Zellbrigen after their defeat at Tukayyid, and some never completely adhered to its rules strictly. Furthermore, if an enemy warrior openly and completely breaks the rules of Zellbrigen, the commander of the Clan forces in the conflict can declare the rules of engagement broken and discard it completely for the remainder of the battle. Not to mention this one particular rule of Zellbrigen:

A warrior has right to refuse challenges from Inner Sphere units, especially if underhanded ploys are suspected.

Which means that a Clan unit can actually openly defy Zellbrigen when engaging the Inner Sphere. Most Clan warriors choose to still follow it even when fighting the IS, but they are allowed, without penalty, to break it willingly.

Population Control: The Clans actually frequently practiced simply conquering the planets military and ignoring the civilians to move on to the next. Garrison units were sent instead to defend the conquered world, and some of the citizens may be taken as isorla, but much of the populations were ignored upon conquest. Besides, using this argument, you also need to consider the same thing with the Successor States conquering one another's worlds, at which point you can see that Battletech actually frequently ignores the complexities of population control unless they need it to advance a specific plot point, and...well, play MechWarrior 2: Mercenaries, and you'll get the idea. It basically feels like most of the populations are willing to live under anyone at anytime unless someone is actively shooting them, and once the gun is put down, they're willing to serve under them again.

You provide a point-by-point analysis of how my points _can_ be flawed, but fail to provide a scenario where it works. I await your scenario.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Grey Black, on 23 October 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

Something to remember about quoting from the sourcebooks like The Clans - Warriors of Kerensky is that all sourcebooks are written in-universe, which often leads to subtle jabs or hints that ComStar is covering things up. I will ignore that for now and accept your point regarding ilKhan and instead continue on another avenue.

Something i realize looking back over the thread is the pattern seems to be this:

IS player (now called an IS-sy Fit): Clans can't hold the Inner Sphere because of the culture they fight by.
Clan player (now called a Clanboy): Clan technology trumps that.
IS-sy Fit: Perhaps. But what about the numerical advantage of the Inner Sphere? Because of that, Clans couldn't hold it.
Clanboy: Clan technology trumps that.
IS-sy Fit: That's stretching it, but I'll buy it. What about supply lines? It's a year to Clan space and back, whereas the IS could bring material to the front easier. Therefore, the IS could hold the Clans.
Clanboy: Clan technology trumps that.
IS-sy Fit: That's... completely illogical. What if the IS applied attrition based warfare?
Clanboy: Clan technology trumps that.
IS-sy Fit: ... Screw this, I'm out.
Clanboy: I WIN!

Now, I have a challenge to the Clanboys. We IS-sy Fits have been giving our reasons as to why the Clans could never hold the entire IS. Now, please give us a scenario whereby the Clans _COULD_ hold the entire IS. I have given my numbers above, if you would like to use different numbers, please keep them within reason as much as possible, I used Sarna and Google to guesstimate my numbers (I refuse to go through the entire army list of each House and Clan and account for every Mech and vehicle in their armed forces, WAY too much time for me, so what I did was I took the basic structure and used basic multiplication), so I suggest you use the same. Please account for the following factors:

-Raw numerical advantage: According to my above numbers, the IS holds roughly a 5:1 advantage over the Clans in terms of military and 6000:1 advantage in terms of raw population. Those are steep odds for anyone.
-Inner Sphere tactics/Total Warfare: Historically, the Clans react poorly to these actions as they view attacks on supply lines and roadside bombings wasteful. How will the Clans negate this?
-Information Warfare: Whereas the Clans (on the surface at least) seem to be very upfront about their forces, the Inner Sphere can and will resort to underhanded tactics and subterfuge to ensure advantage. How will the Clans combat this?
-Problems of unity: We all know the Inner Sphere cannot create a legitimate team to save its own hide; too much bad blood exists between the Houses due to centuries of politics. The Clans, as well, have these problems in the Warden/Crusader division. How will these divisions affect the overall Clan warfare effectiveness?
-Bidding: The practice of bidding was designed to prevent unnecessary waste among the Clans. The Inner Sphere does, eventually, learn how to manipulate this practice to their advantage. Will you keep the bidding process? If not, how do you keep waste to a minimum?
-Zellbrigen: The rules of zellbrigen are a fickle and cruel mistress when your enemy decides to not follow them, and because the sibkos teach the process so fervently, it appears to have created a tunnel-vision mindset among some Clans: I can only fight this enemy until he's dead. I can't use physical attacks ever. If the enemy starts using these tactics, how will the Clans react?
-Population control: How will the Clans control the population? Nuclear strikes from space? Men on the ground? Forget about the population and move on to the next planet?

Please address how the Clans will address these issues and lay out how, in your mind, the Clans can fight for, obtain, and hold the entire Inner Sphere. After this has been laid out, we'll talk. I'll wait.

Asked & answered councilor. Operation Klondike & Era Report 3052. Get them, read them, then we will talk. I'll wait. Also I never used the Clan tech trumps that line, because while they had better designs of mechs, they did not have OmniMechs or Elementals when Klondike was prosecuted. The coordination, trainining, intelligence gathering & execution of well conceived battle plans as well as quick thinking when said plans were thrown into disarray by the enemy, is what made Klondike a success. Oh did I mention, ALL the Clans attacked ALL the worlds? I think I might have left that part out.

Vodkavaiator, on 23 October 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

Insults are fun and all but I don't see the need to make this personal.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What I find silly is that in one case, we are to extrapolate that since the Clans succeeded during Operation Klondike they could also succeed in invading the IS.

However, at the same time we are not allowed to discuss hypothetical problems with the Clan's chance of success because it was not mentioned in the lore or literally described in a novel.

You then argue the Clan's working together should logically succeed but if we are only following the lore then we know that they failed exactly in this regard. The Crusaders and Warden could not ultimately not work well enough together to defeat the IS. Nor did the majority of the clans adapt sufficiently to the form of warfare that success would have required...

Following the lore shows us a model that worked, then another one that did not. Using logic anyone can come to the conclusion (since this is a could it have happened scenario) that if the 1st model was executed the second time that it could have worked. The fact of the matter is whatever your arguments are, Revival was not handled like Klondike. Klondike succeeded, Revival did not. it stands to reason the Klondike approach had its merits & could have garnered a different outcome.

Ashla Mason, on 22 October 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

I think that this entire discussion would be helped if the OP could clarify the width and breadth of the question. Like, I'm trying to come up with a logical scenario in which this could work (call it the mythbusters method) while remaining true to the setting.

So if you were to ask me "could the clans sieze the inner sphere" I would reply yes. If you were to ask me "could they do it in by 3056?"I would point and laugh at you.

I concede, that would help things a lot.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 24 October 2012 - 01:56 AM.

[Xipe Totec]

I feel awful for wading into this, but I tried to resist and couldn't.

To parse the question, it is a could question and therefore can predate the actual invasion and I think that's the key to my answer of "They could," paired with "But they wouldn't"

Centrally the issue to me is one of Cassus Belli. The clans are invading largely because they can, or at least that is the appearance to the man on the ground. I admit to being of the mind that soldiers and blah-blah-blah are largely add ons to the more important aspects of war such as politics and resources (soldiers are, after all, just a resource to be expended).

So how could the clans do it? It strikes me that given their abilities and the fact that they have some resources the clearest way is to exploit the wretched system of government which exists in the ruling houses. I accept that Clanners are probably poor politicians, but this is to their advantage because feudal systems are in fact based not on the rule of law but on the rule of personality, with real power resting in local governance. These local governors usually want to be left alone. They also do not wish to be traitors.

Thus don't make them traitors. It can't have escaped anyone that will all the merc companies and ******** affairs and backroom deals it would not be difficult to gin up a reasonable claim to a throne, with force and a hands-off approach to ruling (No, I don't need 50% of your local taxes to fund my megacastle) and politics (Sure he's a giant meathead, but he doesn't give a ****), most of the houses could be brought low.

Steiner and Davion would be the easiest to gin up something people are willing to accept in return for peace, Liao probably the hardest. Sure you'll have constant uprisings against the evil warriors from away, but against the kinder, braver, more peace-loving Davion who just happens to have a lot of mercenary help, likely less so.

This would all, of course, rest on the clans actually having the willpower the reign it in and be better rulers then the current crop, which would admittedly not be that hard. The common man just needs an excuse and no whip across his back and soon enough the "person emblem of the honour guard of his highness (that big jade falcon)" becomes not a sign of oppression but a message of pride and hope.

I hate the clans and the ******** culture they represent, but strictly speaking a takeover is very much doable, just not the way the clans would want it.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Jaroth Winson, on 23 October 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

Following the lore shows us a model that worked, then another one that did not. Using logic anyone can come to the conclusion (since this is a could it have happened scenario) that if the 1st model was executed the second time that it could have worked. The fact of the matter is whatever your arguments are, Revival was not handled like Klondike. Klondike succeeded, Revival did not. it stands to reason the Klondike approach had its merits & could have garnered a different outcome.

You consider the canon where it suits you. First SLDF took 13 years fighting its way from the Rims World Republic to Terra. This fight was also only with forces of the Rims World versus the SLDF with no Great House stepping in to help or hinder. This fight was a conventional fight using combined arms tactics with both sides using modern equipment of the era. During this march from the Periphery to Terra, the SLDF only had a limited number of Royal Battlemech Divisions which utilized the cutting edge weapons and mechs. The SLDF also did not have to worry about insurgents because the planets liberated were actually liberated unlike the Clan Invasion. That is a canon baseline we can go off of.

Another canon baseline we can use is the WoB Ji had. I don't like using it, I don't fully agree with it but its canon. How did the WoB take over the Inner Sphere? By using tactics not seen in either the Clan Invasion or Operation Klondike. They used orbital bombardment, nuclear weapons, biological weapons, cybernetic troops. They surprise attacked almost every capital world at once and industrial worlds like Coventry and Hesperus.

Again, you consider the canon where it suits you. The SLDF example demonstrates how hard it is for an army to conventionally fight its way to Terra. The WoB example shows how an army could take and hold the Inner Sphere. As for Operation Klondike? c'mon man, the Pentagon Worlds were only 5 planets in the same star system*. The logistics for that kind of campaign are vastly smaller to an interstellar conquest. Now that I think of it, with the SLDF example we can see how much authorial fiat was involved when determining how far the Clans actually got in terms of planets conquered, apparently they were given incredible leeway.

*citation needed apparently.

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 24 October 2012 - 06:26 AM.

[Stormwolf]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 24 October 2012 - 05:52 AM, said:

the Pentagon Worlds were only 5 planets in the same star system.

The Pentagon worlds are each a jump apart from each other....

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Stormwolf, on 24 October 2012 - 06:05 AM, said:

The Pentagon worlds are each a jump apart from each other....

1. I literally just searched google and sarna for specific locations of these planets, and no one seems to know, so is there a pre-OpKlondike source that states these planets were that far away?
2. 5 worlds is still just 5 worlds; compared to the hundreds that make up the Inner Sphere, and I take it you rebutting a minor canon error but not either of my two main assertions means they square with you?

[Uncle Totty]

Yes, the Clans COULD have taken and held the IS if:

1. Op. Revival took place in 3005.

2. ALL the Clans took part in it.

3. All the other Clans followed Clan Wolf's example.

[Jaroth Corbett]

What he said.

[Stormwolf]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 24 October 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

1. I literally just searched google and sarna for specific locations of these planets, and no one seems to know, so is there a pre-OpKlondike source that states these planets were that far away?
2. 5 worlds is still just 5 worlds; compared to the hundreds that make up the Inner Sphere, and I take it you rebutting a minor canon error but not either of my two main assertions means they square with you?

From the Clan Wolf sourcebook:




Debating wether or not the Clans could hold the IS seems a bit fruitless, For story reasons they should be able to conquer the IS to instill the people with a sense of dread that they could potentially lose to this foe. I'm willing to bet that the original writers were going for this when the Clans were introduced.

However, the information given to us in later years combined with villain decay made the Clans less of a unstoppable juggernaut so they could create the WoB as the next big threat. The Jih@d probably wouldn't have worked if a overpowered force like the Clans were capable of taking out the WoB in record time.

Edited by Stormwolf, 24 October 2012 - 10:05 AM.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Stormwolf, on 24 October 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:

Debating wether or not the Clans could hold the IS seems a bit fruitless, For story reasons they should be able to conquer the IS to instill the people with a sense of dread that they could potentially lose to this foe. I'm willing to bet that the original writers were going for this when the Clans were introduced.

However, the information given to us in later years combined with villain decay made the Clans less of a unstoppable juggernaut so they could create the WoB as the next big threat. The Jih@d probably wouldn't have worked if a overpowered force like the Clans were capable of taking out the WoB in record time.

declared fruitless 11 pages later? a little late eh?
Problem with a lot of Battletech writing is author fiat left and right, clan and IS, etc. The whole idea of keeping Tech progress down in the IS and fast-tracking clan tech is complete proof in of itself. I don't like the story past 3058 (so much bad writing) but the exetuction of the Ji hads opening moves seem legit and akin to the First Succession War so it is a bit internally consistent. However WoB pulling out of their exhaust ports a massive army with limitless reach...yeah...Would have been a hell of a lot cooler if the Wobbies took over and the clans had to invade again but this time they know its to actually save the Inner Sphere.

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 24 October 2012 - 11:20 AM.

[dal10]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 24 October 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

declared fruitless 11 pages later? a little late eh?
Problem with a lot of Battletech writing is author fiat left and right, clan and IS, etc. The whole idea of keeping Tech progress down in the IS and fast-tracking clan tech is complete proof in of itself. I don't like the story past 3058 (so much bad writing) but the exetuction of the Ji hads opening moves seem legit and akin to the First Succession War so it is a bit internally consistent. However WoB pulling out of their exhaust ports a massive army with limitless reach...yeah...Would have been a hell of a lot cooler if the Wobbies took over and the clans had to invade again but this time they know its to actually save the Inner Sphere.

They kind of did. Clan Warships were kind of the BFH (Big F****** Hammer) of the last pushes to eradicate the Wobbies. See ghost bears and the Rasahague.

[Vodkavaiator]

It is kind of sad, but BT really only works when you don't really try to logically/realistically analyze the lore.

Once you start looking at things too closely; comparing it to established sciences and various fields of study it becomes a bit silly.

Edited by Vodkavaiator, 24 October 2012 - 11:27 AM.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Vodkavaiator, on 24 October 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

It is kind of sad, but BT really only works when you don't really try to logically/realistically analyze the lore.

Once you start looking at things too closely; comparing it to established sciences and various fields of study it becomes a bit silly.

which is funny because so many fans like to push this as 'hard' sci fi, and not whimsical like Star Wars or Star Trek. Just because a sci-fi doesnt have aliens, does not mean its logical

[Stormwolf]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 24 October 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

declared fruitless 11 pages later? a little late eh?

Better late then never

Aaron DeChavilier, on 24 October 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Problem with a lot of Battletech writing is author fiat left and right, clan and IS, etc. The whole idea of keeping Tech progress down in the IS and fast-tracking clan tech is complete proof in of itself. I don't like the story past 3058 (so much bad writing) but the exetuction of the Ji hads opening moves seem legit and akin to the First Succession War so it is a bit internally consistent. However WoB pulling out of their exhaust ports a massive army with limitless reach...yeah...Would have been a hell of a lot cooler if the Wobbies took over and the clans had to invade again but this time they know its to actually save the Inner Sphere.

That would have been the wet dream of every warden. And ironically it was Vlad Ward who showed images from nukes that hit Tamar to get them to step in. Too bad it didn't work out.

[Alexander Joe Eisenkreuz Steiner]

Vodkavaiator, on 24 October 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

It is kind of sad, but BT really only works when you don't really try to logically/realistically analyze the lore.

Once you start looking at things too closely; comparing it to established sciences and various fields of study it becomes a bit silly.

This. Only that I would replace "a bit" with extremely. I find the game still fun though.
Also, as with most fiction, it shows why it's completely pointless arguing with canon, because contrary to history the outcome is created first (e.g. Clans attack but are stopped by ComStar) and after that a story that should fit this ending is created (e.g. History of the Clans). And this is especially true for BT, which is writers fiat all over the place. Really an extreme case for that IMO.

As for the discussion Clans vs. Inner Sphere: Actually I find both political and social systems totally abhorrent (and the Clans even more than the IS). Luckily they are completely improbable (again the Clans even more).

But somehow the difference between Clans and IS reminds me to the difference between North Korea (Clans) and South Korea (IS): ;-)
http://static.locker...7168xewrad.jpeg

[PaintedWolf]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 24 October 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

1. I literally just searched google and sarna for specific locations of these planets, and no one seems to know, so is there a pre-OpKlondike source that states these planets were that far away?
2. 5 worlds is still just 5 worlds; compared to the hundreds that make up the Inner Sphere, and I take it you rebutting a minor canon error but not either of my two main assertions means they square with you?

Actually it would be thousands of worlds (about 2000), and that is not including orbital cities and moons and hidden areas and Periphery (I guess Clans think Periphery will just magically disappear. )

Thing is I imagine Clan-Optimists are seeing it like resources are consolidated instantly when planets are taken. In reality rebuilding factories, establishing appropriate supply chains, retooling assembly lines, establising garrison forces, etc can take years. And to occupy that many planets will require the training of way too many infantry which the Clan's genetic-hierarchical system cannot support. That is even assuming there are no rebellions, I imagine rebellions will be huge.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 27 October 2012 - 10:35 PM.

[PaintedWolf]

Alexander Joe Eisenkreuz Steiner, on 24 October 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

But somehow the difference between Clans and IS reminds me to the difference between North Korea (Clans) and South Korea (IS): ;-)
http://static.locker...7168xewrad.jpeg

Khan Jong Il.

[Jaroth Corbett]

PaintedWolf, on 27 October 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

Actually it would be thousands of worlds (about 2000), and that is not including orbital cities and moons and hidden areas and Periphery (I guess Clans think Periphery will just magically disappear. )

Thing is I imagine Clan-Optimists are seeing it like resources are consolidated instantly when planets are taken. In reality rebuilding factories, establishing appropriate supply chains, retooling assembly lines, establising garrison forces, etc can take years. And to occupy that many planets will require the training of way too many infantry which the Clan's genetic-hierarchical system cannot support. That is even assuming there are no rebellions, I imagine rebellions will be huge.

How about you do some reading before posting? Where did you think the Clans passed through before they got to the IS? Wow.

[Fiachdubh]

They could maybe hold it if they made liberal use of the Snow Raven and other Clan fleet assets to perform planetary bombardments on anyone who did not play along.

Otherwise they could massively increase the number of sibkos to give them the necessary numbers to administer the IS.

[N_Malthus]

if the clans actually worked together I believe they could have wiped the floor with the inner sphere despite being out numbered but they fell to the same mistrust and greed that has plagued the inner spheres great houses for centuries remember the words of Kerensky to rid the inner sphere of the great houses the clans must work together