373 replies to this topic

[Celtic Warrior]

Was there a change to the analog controls for the joystick? I'm using the config file and it all worked good in Windows XP. I built a new system and I'm now running windows 7. The config files seems to be working for the turning of the mech but the pitch and torso twist is way to quick and unstable, it's impossible to aim. I've sent in a ticket and they say that nothings changed on there end it's all on my end.

[shotokan5]

Until U.I 2.0 is installed they will not be putting the necessary coding in. As to when that is going to be who knows? If they did it before then they would have to do it twice and we wouldn't want that now would we.

You have to love these guys, Moose Head for everyone.

[F lan Ker]

S!

Joysticks have been around since beginning of gaming so they should not be rocket science to be supported in a game..

[Loc Nar]

Quote

Joysticks have been around since beginning of gaming so they should not be rocket science to be supported in a game..

There is still much confusion and misconception surrounding joysticks. The only thing you guys can look forward to with joystick support will be the answer the question of 'could I?', by removing some technical barriers that stump some users. The (avoidable) technical support hurdles prevent people from asking the real question of "should I", to which the answer will still be a resounding NO regardless of how easy of a plug-n-play support solution you get.

The problem is that *MWO is already coded for a mutually exclusive type of input that directly manipulates position, called zero-order or direct control and it's not gonna go away and it can't be effectively manipulated by a joystick, which is fundamentally a first-order controller which means it generates velocity/directional commands. Just like oil and water are fundamentally incompatible, first-order controllers do not mix with zero-order applications. So long as MWO is zero-order, first-order controllers (regular joysticks) can just stay in bed because they already lost. If you don't understand this, please take the time to at least skim my writeup so you can stop settling for non-answers or red herrings.

Controls Demystified(?)

The commonly accepted notion that pgi just doesn't know how to joystick is false, and an oversimplification of reality. They decided the fate of MWO being primarily a keyboard/mouse game (typical dev move to ensure a large playerbase and hence profitability) the minute they chose zero-order positioning for reticule aim and it's now a done deal with over 2 years of engineering and balancing. **It was not an accident, it was not an oversight, but make no mistake -it absolutely slams the door shut on the possibility of regular joysticks ever being a competitively viable option regardless of how 'supported' they are or are not.


tl;dr: a business decision cancelled in favor of the mouse long before this game saw closed beta and it's a done deal that no level of 'support' can work around. The real problem is the underlying mechanics of how inputs are handled. As stands reticule aim is zero-order and there is no logical reason to suspect this will go away. This leaves one with the option of either using a positional controller or accepting their place in the underhive.

*and thus ended the possibility of MWO being a joystick game

**there are no game devs that don't understand at least basics of zero vs first-order control and their implications

[Daxxx]

Yeah I've tried an X45, x52, CH pro throttle and a Nostromo. Nothing works just right for me. I too have been tinkering with making my own. I'd love to hear what you or others have come up with.

David(aka Spanxster)

Grenadapult, on 26 November 2012 - 05:33 AM, said:

Shotokan, you aren't throwing away the 7 old X52's are ya??? I'm not complaining about controls because its still Beta. When PGI releases this game as "complete", essentially bragging to the public abiout how awesome the game is, and the "invert y-axis" checkmark still doesn't work on a joystick, yeah, I'll be bothered.
As for YOUR controller... I'm cobbling my own togetehr from scratch from 3 donor flightsticks, a Playstation Controller and some random buttons. If you are buying a new X52 everytime you have an issue with one, please, send a couple my way. I'll gut em and add to my Frankenstein.
So, my question still stands, how do I add to the config file? I'm not afraid or angry, I just don't yet know how to find it.

[DHB Drachenwolf]

Look ladies until this JS problem is fixed I aint playen this game period. The Guys at Mektec have the code to fix this HUGE problem. X and Y axis wont enable correctly. If this problem didnt exsist in Mechwarrior 4 such as it is? why the heIl does it exsist now? Trying to set up my JS has been a big pain and Mechwarrior 4 mercs had it solved.

Now some smart as.s can say (then go play mercs) obviously NOT the point. Ill check back with these morons called Devs this summer MAYBE they can remove their heads OUT of their behinds and FIX this problem. Remember kids the guys at Mektec have this figured out. Since they have the mechwarrior 4 mercs code the problem should be EASIER to solve. Anyway done ranting see ya when it heats up. bye bye.

[Loc Nar]

Quote

look ladies until this JS problem is fixed I aint playen this game period.

Hostile much?

The problem runs deeper than can be simply coded around because a control scheme that is mutually exclusive from joystick control was already chosen, implemented, and balanced around for 2 years and is a central feature to the game. Unless they uproot everyone's mouse and disallow zero-order control (direct positional control aka mouse aim), then vector based controls like regular joysticks need not even get out of bed.

If you are crafty you can make a joystick suitable for positional control, but I suspect if this was in your capacity you would not be making silly posts like this.

If you want to know more about controls and why off-shelf joysticks work in some games but will never be a good idea here or any other positional based application (use a joystick to move the cursor in a browser... same thing), this is my attempt at outlining the *actual issues that underlie the problem. Controls Demystified(?)

[a gaijin]

TBCH I agree with the angry ranters. I've been there myself. That being said, I:

*Don't have the patience to wait/boycott anything to get my Mech/BT fix.
*Have kind of adjusted to using the mouse+JS "workaround" for the time being.

And I happen to be ideealistic/optimistic that PGI has the best intentions to make MWO. I hear they will work on JS code sometime after UI2.0 is released.

I wonder how "fun" it'll be to relearn proper JS use after all this time using the bastardized mouse+JS control scheme.
It'll probably {gosh-darning} stink like a big {mommy} but what can an impatient Mech Warrior do?

Edited by HeroForHire, 03 February 2014 - 12:35 AM.

[Loc Nar]

Quote

It'll probably {gosh-darning} stink like a big {mommy} but what can an impatient Mech Warrior do?

I vote for identifying what's going on with controls (reticule aim is zero-order positioning) and choosing peripherals or fabricating controls accordingly. Example: a positional controller made just for MWO. That stick has nearly 6000 matches on it. The problem is not deadzones and sensitivities, or peripheral recognition, or mapping challenges... those are all so easily bypassed (3rd party software like TARGET or UJR, etc) that it's kinda sad to see people getting hung on such easy stuff.

The problem is a type of control scheme was chosen for MWO that slams the door shut on regular joysticks being effective, no matter how much you can massage the curves or sensitivity, it does not matter so long as the task is zero-order, or what gamers call 'mouse aim'. So long as this exists in-game though, even a Thrustmaster Warthog running the best TARGET scripts is a boat anchor, and nothing short of uprooting zero-order will change this.

Once a task is down to direct positioning, zero-order control, basically only positional controllers work good enough. It's a different task and the computer handles differently than the velocity tasks (first/second-order) a joystick is made for.

MWO was already made, updated, and balanced for >2yrs around direct positional control of reticule. Reticule aim will remain be zero-order after 2.0, so 'support' will at best be the ability to adjust sensitivities or deadzones or have your stick be recognized at all and buttons able to bind. The only benefit you will see from that is it will be easier for you to determine something is still not right.

Simple test to verify. The way that cursor moves in your browser is the same zero-order positioning used for reticule aim. Set up a joystick for mouse emulation including left/right clicks and try browsing that way for a day. Keep in mind: -there is no magic trick to make this suck less- other than using a controller actually made for positioning, like a mouse, trackball, trackpad, *master/slave/replica joystick, etc.

Here's my writeup on controls if anyone wants to go beyond red herrings. Controls Demystified(?)

edit: tone...

Edited by Loc Nar, 03 February 2014 - 10:36 AM.

[Firewuff]

.... huge code update to do gradual turns..... *headesk*.......

[MnDragon]

Loc Nar, on 03 February 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

Simple test to verify. The way that cursor moves in your browser is the same zero-order positioning used for reticule aim. Set up a joystick for mouse emulation including left/right clicks and try browsing that way for a day. Keep in mind: -there is no magic trick to make this suck less- other than using a controller actually made for positioning, like a mouse, trackball, trackpad, *master/slave/replica joystick, etc.

I did what you said here, and it is a pain in the Arse. My question is that you have created a zero order joystick, is your experience as clunky as my joystick emulating a mouse? In other words, is really worth my time and effort to create this zero order joystick? Are there any out there available for purchase?

[Loc Nar]

MnDragon, on 05 February 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

I did what you said here, and it is a pain in the Arse. My question is that you have created a zero order joystick, is your experience as clunky as my joystick emulating a mouse? In other words, is really worth my time and effort to create this zero order joystick? Are there any out there available for purchase?

..not many people take up the challenge, your inquisitive and skeptical approach is refreshing and appreciated.

First question about my experience being clunky or not: -nowhere near as clunky as using a regular joystick for this. Mechanically a normal joystick is optimized for the task of directional velocity, so has spring centering and tactile bump/detente for a home, as well as the likelihood of deadzones. All of these are the enemy of positioning, which relies on influence-free inputs and resting positions, so will always be very clunky to use so long as the task at hand is positioning.

Are any available for purchase? Unfortunately not, well sort of not. The Steel Battalion controller has 2 sticks on it. The right one was for reticule aim, and it is indeed a native positional controller, although it moves in pitch/roll instead of pitch/yaw. It has a decent friction gimbal mechanism in it for being all plastic, and these days there are users that do have it working in MWO, and you *can buy one on ebay.

Is it really worth the time and effort to build one. Absolutely! ...if you are capable of some basic shop machining tasks and can get the damping right. IMO, there is no substitute for heavy, metal construction with bearings and solid metal components. Besides being highly intuitive, controllable, and accurate, the weight and heft of the controls... the lack of any squeaks or flexing, etc all add up to an experience totally worth it IMO.

Strap a rift onto your head and all you have left to work with is kinematics and tactile feedback, two of the main features I focused on early. I can operate them blindfolded just as effectively as with sight because they do not req my eyes. Part of this is having fixed relations do to being mounted in a cockpit though.

Another pilot, Foust made one as well, converting a Thrustmaster T16000m with a pretty simple mod (removing spring and replacing with friction rub shim), converting its pitch/roll centering gimbal into a pitch/roll friction gimbal

Hit me up in my controls or cockpit thread for more nuts-n-bolts explanations etc, or feel free to pm me or whatnot if you decide to take on this project. There are many ways to accomplish the task, but sticks that can run TARGET have a big advantage here, since you need to emulate in absolute mouse for starters, but offers a lot of other advantages in terms of self support for controls.

[MnDragon]

Loc Nar, on 05 February 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

...a lot

My issue is that I don't have the hardware (shop, grinders, vices, drills, bandsaws..etc) or the time (nor really the money) to do any of this. Trust me, I've seen your thread on your simpit and Fousts and all the other guys with sheer gonads to take on a project like this and I drool...(so much so that I broke my last joystick and had to buy another one ) I like my joystick that I use now, and intend to buy some pedals for it once I save up enough (Saitek X52 Pro) Its just that no matter how good I get with the controls, I know I could aim so much easier with a mouse. I'm stubborn, I refuse to play a simulator game with a stinking mouse. And all the pretty buttons and lights on my joystick means that I don't have take my hand off of anything to activate anything. All my controls are accessed by my fingers. I was hoping for an easy solution that allows me the ability to move my joystick like a mouse without all the derp. I wish I had the resources to do what you guys do with those simpits. I would never leave mine...lol

Edited by MnDragon, 05 February 2014 - 04:50 PM.

[Old Bones]

Thanks PGI for enabling joystick control!

I can finally play this game.

Me trying to navigate using mouse & keyboard is like an elephant trying to play Mozart on a piano. It can be done but it ain't pretty.

My X-52 works great. Programmed the stick & throttle in-game & programmed the buttons with the JS software. The sensitivity & deadzone settings in-game are simple & have worked well for me.

Someday I might even spend some money on this game.

[a gaijin]

I've read roughly half of Controls Demystified(?) and it's a great write up and very VERY helpful to people who do have the time to fabricate a control console cockpit and who also have the space for that in their home.

But let's be completely honest: making a control for a game is not something the average gamer has the time, resources, or maybe even motivation to do.

I'm in no way trying to detract or imply anything remotely negative. I'm just being honest. If I had the time to make a mech cockpit for my home and the space, I would.

It's excellent that there are people out there with the resources to take on -- and complete -- projects like this.

[shotokan5]

Well, after two years it seems that 2.0 finally has done something about the problem. Yes, under joystick controls it does have an
effect on the joystick. So far I have tested I on the 3D Pro and gone from bouncing like a cork to almost being able to use it very
well. Next I will take my X52 Pro out of the box and begin to see what I can do.

On thing which would be of great help to us all are those who have gotten it to work under 2.0 to show screen shots of their settings. It would give us regular folks a good place to start from.

Thanks to all those who have put in much time and effort to keep us going through the real bad times . Are we their yet? Maybe not but at least there has been progress.

[MADTIGERSr]

I am tired of waiting for real joystick support is it going to happen or not? I was using joy to mouse before the last patch now it takes 30 min to 2 hours to get it working to play each time I start playing. We need a setting for sensitivity ,acceleration and dead zone for 3 axis at the least. or for the game not to bypass a profiler program such as Logitech profiler.

[Darklord]

Well I went from being able to play just fine with my CH set up to having no dead band and not being able to use the zoom module,because how the cross hair will jump instead of a smooth movement

[GR0G]

ThrustMaster HOTAS works awesome Thanks all !!

[Listronicus]

Has anyone else suddenly seen a change in joystick operation ? I'm getting issues on joystick input that I have not seen before. In windows the input seams fine but in game its randomly not accepting input for y axis. Not sure if its just my joystick or if others are seeing similar issues (just started today). PS my left arm is paralyzed so mouse keyboard is not an option.