80 replies to this topic

[Citizen Erased]

CheeseThief, on 25 October 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

It was a Solaris mech, it was most likely painted up into something awesome and marketable. Samuri are awesome and marketable.

Yeah... Where the katana is replaced by a 14tons autocannon. Awesome.

[Monsoon]

Magik0012, on 25 October 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

A portion of the flag of the Republic of China.. roughly 1928 - 1947
http://en.wikipedia....public_of_China

Yes the Republic of China is what we call Taiwan, now go to that link and hit the redirect to People's Republic of China.

Personally, I like the paint job.

[CCC Dober]

On first glance YLWs color scheme will be associated with japanese origins, and most decidedly not Cenotaph. This is truly something that only marketing can come up with. We know for a fact that they don't play by the rules in the 21st century. Why should they do that in the 31st century all of a sudden? You guessed it: they don't.

[Alex Wolfe]

El Death Smurf, on 26 October 2012 - 03:35 AM, said:

now the Japanese use shwasticas and crosses in several of their animated features. Naruto has a character with a shwasitca on his head. Full metel alchemist had a test subject on a crucifix. dragon ball z had a character named after the devil (Hurcule was called Sat4n). these were all changed in translation to a western world since these simbols in of them selves are offensive in western audiences.

A bit off-topic, but I just can't let this one slide...

No offense, but the "Japanese swastikas" and use of crosses are offensive only for the ignorant audiences (Western or not).

Swastika is the symbol of good luck, fire, eternity and so forth, used in Hinduist and Buddhist context (among others, there are also findings of European nations using it) for thousands of years. On Japanese maps, for example, it's used to denote a Buddhist temple. Don't let 20 years of madness soil thousands of years of culture.

Same with crosses - the simple design of a cross has been in use for thousands of years. Crosses were in use in art as well as by various religions. Christians use the cross because Christ was hanged on one - but bear in mind that it was done by pagans. Crucifiction was used as death penalty before Christ, and it was also used as death penalty by Japanese. It's simply a convenient shape in that case, a person with arms outstretched.

It's usually easy to say whether a symbol is used to propagate hatred or mock existing religions, or is simply used in an unrelated context. Christianity doesn't own the cross, and IIIrd Reich doesn't own the swastika. Look at the context before getting offended.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 26 October 2012 - 03:56 AM.

[Ram71]

maybe he wanted to be from a different asian line ...... something more japanese.


don't know just saying is all.

[Odanan]

Do we care about a flag or painting scheme of a 1000 years ago? So Allard (in the third millennium) shouldn't care about the Japanese flag.

PS: but yes, the creator of the BT universe didn't do their homework at all.

[M4NTiC0R3X]

I really, really like the fact their first Hero unveiling was a 'Mech that was used in Solaris matches.. as I've had Solaris as my location since I joined in Feb!

I am also looking forward to the matches, the e-sports oh thank you so much PGI I have told all my friends about this game and their reply has been

, '' Oh, Ima play me some 'Mechwarrior! "

[WolfinExile]

It bothers me as well, because the paint scheme is quite obviously referencing the Japanese Rising Sun flag, which makes sense if it were a Draconis Combine/Japanese scheme, but totally out of place for a Liao/Chinese mech.

Yes we should care about details like this, because the BT universe is supposed to mirror our own. If you were American and someone used British iconography and such to represent your faction, you'd be annoyed too at the discrepancy. You might argue that "oh its the 31st century" but that's a pretty weak excuse for inaccuracy in details, especially when the factions are clearly represented by a certain culture/country/group.

It just goes to show that the guys in charge of these details way back when didn't do their research. But its canon so...

[Noth]

WolfinExile, on 26 October 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

It bothers me as well, because the paint scheme is quite obviously referencing the Japanese Rising Sun flag, which makes sense if it were a Draconis Combine/Japanese scheme, but totally out of place for a Liao/Chinese mech.

Yes we should care about details like this, because the BT universe is supposed to mirror our own. If you were American and someone used British iconography and such to represent your faction, you'd be annoyed too at the discrepancy. You might argue that "oh its the 31st century" but that's a pretty weak excuse for inaccuracy in details, especially when the factions are clearly represented by a certain culture/country/group.

As an American, no I would not be annoyed by it. It's just not important, nor is it a reflection upon me being an American, nor is it meant to offend.

[MontageManiac]

I'm sorry, I have to chime in. It doesn't matter if you're american and the british flag example were the case, because quite honestly Americans, or British, have never suffered the sort of hardships which were inflicted upon China, Korea, and other nations in South East Asia at the hands of the Japanese in the early 20th century.

This is not a judgement against Japanese people today, or anyone of Japanese descent, it's just an acknowledgement that the Japanese government and military of that time willingly participated in atrocities that debased the human rights and dignity of so many people, women and children especially.

Now, the people who wrote the lore so long ago, while the BT universe is supposed to be an allegorical depiction of the political structure of the 80's, clearly did not fully appreciate, or were aware, of the long history between Japan and China, and how tumultuous it has been, and still is.

Further, the comment regarding only those who know the lore could be offended, etc, etc. While this is a good point, and one that I understand, there are 2 things to consider. 1) I did not know which stable Justin, or Kai, belonged to during thier stint on Solaris, and thus the only association I had with either was in regards to the Laio connection. That, in relation to the paint scheme, gave me my first hesitation. 2) The name itself, as someone mentioned, is a Chinese name. It doesn't take much to find that out, and you don't need to be familiar with the lore in order to find the name in conjunction with the paint scheme, a little odd.

That being said, PGI has been really good about trying to keep things canonical, and I don't really see a need for something to be changed. They've been modernizing, and updating a lot of the aesthetics, as they've done with the paint-scheme. They have not been outright changing anything.

In essence, it's one of those things that we should simple acknowledge, shake our heads at, say we think it was a bit of a screw up by the original paint scheme creator, and then move on. But don't trivialize a group of people's very real offense to an excuse of "it's just a game" or "it's not that big a deal". The image of YLW now brings up very strong associations related to all these events, otherwise it wouldn't breed so much commentary. It's a big enough deal to respect those associations.

[Franchi]

The cannon paint scheme has the sunburst CENTERED in the chest and that would be perfectly fine, the MWO design has the sunburst off center exactly the same as the Japanese naval flag. Also all of the cannon schemes i have seen for the mech the rays don't actually connect to the sun, they do on the MWO Scheme and on the flag. The only saving grace for the skin is it has the incorect number of rays the naval flag had 16 on the YLW its 11.

The skin is NOT cannon and on a mech with a Chinese name is about as tone deaf as painting a swastika on a mech named Solomon or David.



This one is fine, tho I would disconnect the rays from the sun.

Edited by Franchi, 26 October 2012 - 10:03 AM.

[Wargtass]

The BattleTech universe stopped being a reflection of our own world once it left our time period. The Capellan Confederation is as much a representation of today's Russia, PRC and ROC as the Clans are for a piece of toast. For us to be upset over an art representation of a fictional Mech in a fictional universe which actually have nothing to do with our own political representations is a bit silly. But I can understand the sentiment. The Sino-Japanese relations aren't the best, especially now with the island conflict brewing. But unless you are Japanese or Chinese you don't need to feel offended on their part. I think they will handle that themselves, they don't need your sympathies.

[Fischkopp]

Cannon or not...the paintjob is pretty awesome....

BUT it really looks like more Japanese than a Mech who should the be the image of a Chinese God.

Edited by Fischkopp, 26 October 2012 - 10:03 AM.

[Psylico]

The notion that YLW's paint scheme is offensive or "tone deaf" is completely pointless. It's clear that the cannon YLW had a Japanese flag, and it doesn't matter whether PGI decided to "move the flag to one side" or "connect the rays to the center." People who say they are offended by this are honestly just looking for something to be offended about.

I really like the paint scheme because it sets it so far apart from all the other mechs currently in the game. It's a Japanese design on a Chinese mech in a fictional universe sanctioned by a fictional guy and it looks cool.

[Jason1138]

the paint job is canon and has more to do with solaris than kurita or liao

i know its weird but just roll with it. we already have a threadnaught about this in the beta section and we dont need another

"The skin is NOT cannon and on a mech with a Chinese name is about as tone deaf as painting a swastika on a mech named Solomon or David."


historically the chinese have killed more japanese than the japanese have chinese. if you turn on the news right now china is trying to bully japan out of some islands. post ww2 china has been the most warmongering nation on earth, and japan doesn't even have a military anymore. so i think your analogy is poorly considered

either way, comparing a pretend robot's pretend paint job to the holocaust is ludicrous. turn off your pc and go get some fresh air or something

[Wargtass]

Franchi, on 26 October 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

The cannon paint scheme has the sunburst CENTERED in the chest and that would be perfectly fine, the MWO design has the sunburst off center exactly the same as the Japanese naval flag. Also all of the cannon schemes i have seen for the mech the rays don't actually connect to the sun, they do on the MWO Scheme and on the flag. The only saving grace for the skin is it has the incorect number of rays the naval flag had 16 on the YLW its 11.

The skin is NOT cannon and on a mech with a Chinese name is about as tone deaf as painting a swastika on a mech named Solomon or David.



This one is fine, tho I would disconnect the rays rom the sun.

A centered sunburst is a Japanese Army Insignia as well (edit: or rather was), so if we are going to be offended I'd say that design is moot as well.

Edited by Wargtass, 26 October 2012 - 10:09 AM.

[Wargtass]

Jason1138, on 26 October 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

historically the chinese have killed more japanese than the japanese have chinese.

That is neither correct or the point. It doesn't matter which side killed most, what matters is the atrocities. I don't condone us as westerners sitting here and trying to sympathize with something we know only academic facts about, but I don't condone trivializing the Japanese war-crimes like this either.

I shall say no more on this thread, I already see where this is going.

[Academus]

I dont think anyone WITHIN this community feel offended by the skin.
What I worry is the reaction people WITHOUT this community, particularly mainland Chinese netizens, will have when they come across the image.

EDIT: By reaction I dont mean "they dont play the game" and more like "they attack the server". Cyberattacks they do for breakfast.

Edited by Academus, 26 October 2012 - 10:37 AM.

[Jason1138]

it might interest people to know that yen lo wang is also worshiped in japan as well as china and korea

Wargtass, on 26 October 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

That is neither correct or the point. It doesn't matter which side killed most, what matters is the atrocities. I don't condone us as westerners sitting here and trying to sympathize with something we know only academic facts about, but I don't condone trivializing the Japanese war-crimes like this either.

I shall say no more on this thread, I already see where this is going.

the chinese in the 50's killed more chinese than the japanese did from 29-45. so maybe the communist chinese flag should be more offensive to chinese people than the japanese flag is?

i'm not defending japan at all. i just think this is an utterly ridiculous thing to get upset about, for a variety of reasons. if you want to be upset anyway, go ahead, but this paint job is canon and not something PGI created

[Star Captain Obvious Kerensky]

red and white sunburst is no more exclusive to Japan than anything with a cross shape is exclusive to Christianity or the Color green is to Libya.

Icons and symbols are reused and borrowed across cultures, some intentionally, some unintentionally.

There are bigger things to worry about.