265 replies to this topic

[FireNova]

Volthorne, on 02 April 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

You're ASSUMING that the devs will even allow us to play as Clanners at all! For the time that people are (possibly) allowed to play as CSJ, I'm sure they'll enjoy it, and when CSJ gets their s*** wrecked, they'll be given the option to integrate with another Clan/faction or become lone wolves.

Your comparison of a suggested scenario in the Deep Periphery and comparison to Jim Raynor and his merry band of rebels is invalid. Jim defected from Arcturus, who was still a rebel at the time, because Jim was disgusted at leaving Kerrigan behind. Maybe you should actually bother to learn the lore before using it in a comparison.

If the outcome is going to result in SJ based players being FORCED to choose another Clan/Faction....wouldn't you think that if players wanted to be a part of Clan Wolf or something else....that they would JOIN said Clan/faction in the FIRST PLACE INSTEAD of "joining Clan x for a certain period of time then being forced to create new characters and start all over in Clan Y?" I simply do not understand why there cannot be at least a "survivor option" to play in the Periphery and such to at least assure Jaguar fans that all their efforts were not completely for waste to the point where it feels as if all that XP grinding and leveling or whatever was for nothing and THEN ON TOP OF THAT being FORCED to choose another faction.......now if THAT doesn't signal a lack of respect for a fanbase or playerbase simply because of the choice/desire/want/need to play as the Jaguars that some players may decide, then I do not know WHAT IS. Course it wouldn't be the first time I have seen the Smoke Jaguar faction be condemned (both in lore and otherwise) so much so that the hidden purpose is to make anyone who chooses to play as the Jaguars feel ashamed or "bad" about being a part of said Jaguar groups (cause after all they ARE the "bad guys" right?) Hence the MARGINALIZATION I have been referencing all this time. Because after all what better way to influence behaviors and decisions than to have rules and regulations to "convince" people to make certain choices even though that "choice" may not be what they originally want/decided?

(Example: Ooooooo a Smoke Jaguar faction?! Sounds cool! Hey we b winning against Combinez! This seems like fun!.....Wait..... Whats DIS?!!....Jaguars are meany?! But the playerbase seems alright...~SJ~ seem like pretty cool guys.....how could they be bad?...GASP! Turtle Bay?! ZOMG DIS B HORRIBLE! Wait...We lose on Wolcott and unable to attack planet for rest of game??!!!! W T F??? Hmmm maybe Luthien not so bad.....*after game*....ZOMG WE B TEAM UP WIT NOVA CAT AND STILL LOSE?! ZOMG WE GET RAIDED DAILY BY EVERYBODY BUT NOT ALLOWED TO STRIKE BACK EFFECTIVELY???? NOVA CATS DESTROY RAIDING FORCE????? LOSE ON TUKAYYID??? BULLDOG/SERPENT/DAMOCLES/CHUCK NORRIS???? But what about survivors? CAN'T PLAY AS THEM???? ........Ok I quitz. Gonna reroll Alliance Inner Sphere Davion brb.....) Marginalization FTL.

The very fact that people choose SJ as an option to play as should be very apparent: It should be up to the player to decide what Clan/Faction they want to play as whether it be the Jaguars, Wolves, Davions, etc (AKA FREE CHOICE)......not have some governmental regulation say: "You will buy/join X product and ONLY X product because of a new lore law section 9999999 that clearly states that product Y will be "phased out" and any such subscribers/buyers of said Y product will either be "encouraged" to choose X product or left out altogether."

Yeah that sounds real encouraging to have lore be the complete and ultimate law as to determine what people CAN and CANNOT do in a video game.

As for the whole Streaking Mist/Hyperion option.....WHY THE NORRIS NOT?????!!!! WHERE does it state that in the government regulations rulebook that players cannot play as the Jaguar survivors and be on some backwater Periphery world with only the Streaking Mist and a handful of other dropships/jumpships/transports/personnel/Chuck Norris' workout DVD's to pass the time???? I thought "BattleTech/MechWarrior were '"One and the same'"??? What about the wide, open universe that is BattleTech? Why no Periphery option? What do the survivors do? What if people don't WANT to be forced to choose any other faction? What if people LIKE what they originally chose????

In a way I see the "survivor option" as a good balance between the canon hardcore and the casual funloving "free choice" folks. The Smoke Jaguars get to continue in the Periphery post Bulldog/Serpent to keep players who CHOOSE the Jaguars happy while at the same time keeping the canon hardcore happy because the storyline was followed and the Jaguars do not hold any IS/Homeworld planets and are now located in the Periphery struggling to survive and make do with the best they can get while the storyline continues on. I think it is about the most rational and reasonable thing considering that this is a video game and people are here mostly for fun and the enjoyment of deciding for themselves how they want their experience to be....NOT have it be decided for them.

[Silent]

You seem pretty riled up, FireNova.

[Strum Wealh]

FireNova, on 02 April 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

- cut for brevity -

Again, that the Clans would be available as a playable set of factions is something that has not been definitively confirmed.

Additionally, one theory I have is that the playable factions (which may or may not ultimately include the Clans and/or certain large and well-known merc units) may be limited to long-term survivors.

For example, the St. Ives Compact is canonically a separate body from the CapCon, and is in fact more closely aligned to the FedSuns than the Confederation.
But, the Compact is (canonically) to be short-lived - 'twould be reintegrated into the CapCon in 3063 as a result of an agreement between Candace Liao (SIC) and Sun-Tzu Liao (CapCon), effectively ceasing to exist as a separate entity.
In that case, any SIC-affiliated players would 1.) become CapCon players, 2.) defect to another faction (most likely the FedSuns?), or 3.) become Mercs or Lone Wolves.
By contrast, the FRR ultimately "survives" into the canon "present" (the Dark Ages era) in the form of the Rasalhague Dominion by combining itself and Clan Ghost Bear as equals in partnership.
In that case, any FRR-affiliated players could 1.) remain Rasalhagians, 2.) defect and join another faction, or 3.) become Mercs or Lone Wolves.

If - not when, but if - the Clans are made a playable faction, I could see the Devs doing something similar, where only those Clans that in one form or another "survive" into the Dark Age Era would be made playable.
Under such a theory, any Clans that would ultimately be absorbed (Clans Widowmaker and Burrock) or annihilated (Clans Wolverine and Smoke Jaguar) would remain unavailable as selectable affiliations.

The same could also be said of some of the more well-known faction commands (ex. 2nd Sword of Light - disbanded in 3075) and merc commands (ex. Gray Death Legion - destroyed in 3065).
And we already know (from Dev Q&A 01) that certain unit names will be "locked out"...

Quote

Can players start a Merc Corp that is already canon? Or will you protect canon faction/unit names? I.e. I want to start the Eridiani Light Horse Merc Corp, I’m the first to register the Merc Corp’s name so is it mine or will I be able to join the Waco Rangers and interact in it like I would a House unit?

[PAUL] Merc Corp names are registered names. Once it’s taken, it’s gone. As for canon protected faction/unit names, we will be locking out some of the key players in the BT timeline.

We know (from Dev Blog 01) that the Core Worlds will be administered by the devs and are "necessary for future planning and part of major historical events", while Faction Worlds (which Faction players fight over) "buffer core and border worlds, and do not play a significant role in major historical events" and Border Worlds (which Merc players bid on contracts for) "change hands on a regular basis, and have no impact on historical events".
So, it seems that the Devs are already planning for players to be generally restricted to fighting on/for planets whose conquest or loss would not affect the major events of the canon timeline.

IMO, it wouldn't be wholly unthinkable to likewise "lock out" whole factions for similar reasons...

Though, again, that's just my theory - it could be spot-on, only half-right, or wholly incorrect.

Your thoughts?

Edited by Strum Wealh, 03 April 2012 - 03:32 AM.

[Volthorne]

@Strum Well said, thanks for backing up my point.

@FireNova Your worship of Chuck seems to be misplaced, he had his *** handed to him by Bruce Lee. Might I suggest a switching of deity figures?

ON TOPIC: FireNova, just because a faction gets disbanded/destroyed/assimilated doesn't mean you need to reroll your whole character. You still keep your XP, any owned mechs (maybe not faction-specifics? idk), and any money. You WOULD NOT get to keep your faction points (unless assimilated), but that wouldn't be much of a problem as they're hinted to be easily earned (just guesswork due to the fact that Devs wouldn't be readily allowing faction abandonment if faction points were nigh impossible to rack up). Sure, you COULD go Deep Periphery, if the Devs let you, and then (presumably) get left behind tech-wise except for what you can scavenge (does that sound like a great way to live? You'd probably lose mechs faster than you could scavenge parts to build more - and where would you get C-bills for food and water? No one's going to offer CSJ contracts out of pity). The Devs also get final say as to what can and cannot happen; It's their game, we just support it (if they say "CSJ is no more, GTFO!" you can either live with it or leave the game - your choice).

[Moosehead]

Volthorne, on 02 April 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

@FireNova Your worship of Chuck seems to be misplaced, he had his *** handed to him by Bruce Lee. Might I suggest a switching of deity figures?

Ah- that was pre-Beard Chuck

Unstoppable now.

[Makoraias]

In my humblest opinion, the lore (after launch date) should be entirely dictated by the actions of the player. While lore is nice for a game to have (since it does tell a story), when you are basically stuck on a rail-shooter (or in this case, a rail-story), the player feels like he does nothing to contribute to the progression of the story. What incentive would a player have to play the game if everything he or she could do was already pre-determined by whether or not it's considered "canon"? That seems both counter-intuitive for a game based on PvP and pretty much discourages anyone for playing the game (unless you're one of those "don't care about lore, all I care about is my K/D ratio" people).

[Edited because spelling while tired = never successful]

Edited by Makoraias, 03 April 2012 - 02:21 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Makoraias, on 03 April 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

In my humblest opinion, the lore (after launch date) should be entirely dictated by the actions of the player. While lore is nice for a game to have (since it does tell a story), when you are basically stuck on a rail-shooter (or in this case, a rail-story), the player feels like he does nothing to contribute to the progression of the story. What incentive would a player have to play the game if everything he or she could do was already pre-determined by whether or not it's considered "canon"? That seems both counter-intuitive for a game based on PvP and pretty much discourages anyone for playing the game (unless you're one of those "don't care about lore, all I care about is my K/D ratio" people).

[Edited because spelling while tired = never successful]

I would say that it's less like being on rails than like being on a busy highway system - which lane one drives in, how many times one changes lanes, and what exits one takes are the choices, as long as one doesn't drive in the wrong direction on either side of the road.

For a somewhat better (IMO) example, I would say that the Devs are taking a very "Whovian" approach.

Quote

Fixed points were events and/or individuals who had such long-standing impacts on the timeline that no one, not even Time Lords, dared interfere with their natural progression. The Doctor, free to interfere in alien invasions and save planets in most cases, could neither interfere nor interact with these fixed points. Were a fixed point to be interfered with, time would often find a way to make the timeline continue with minimal changes; for example when the Doctor saved Adelaide Brooke and her crew, Brooke committed suicide to preserve the timeline.

Quote

Flux points were relatively insignificant (on a universal scale) events that could be altered with relatively little to no consequence. The Doctor often meddled at these moments. When the Tenth Doctor first met Martha Jones, he told her that "Crossing into established events is strictly forbidden... except for cheap tricks."

As implied from Dev Blog 01 and Dev Q&A 01 (quoted in my previous post), it seems that we as players would only be dealing with "flux points" (ownership of Faction Worlds and Border Worlds, the rise and fall of "lesser-known", player-run faction and merc units, etc), while the "fixed points" (the mentioned "major historical events", the ownership of Core Worlds, the rise and fall of prominent faction and merc units, etc) would be administered and protected by the Devs.

Just because one can't single-handedly annihilate everyone but one's favorite faction and/or succeed where each of the Successor States and ComStar and the Clans have failed doesn't necessarily mean there is "nothing to do" or "no reason to play"...

Your thoughts?

[T0RC4ED]

Lore should be thought of as a guideline as apposed to "This is the way its going to be".

[Kensaisama]

The discussion seems to have taken a left turn somewhere by all appearances. Gentlemen the Lore and Canon will be protected by the Devs, any and all timeline events (lore and canon) will happen as they have been written, we will have no effect on them whats so ever. As it has been pointed out in this thread, we are and will be the footnotes in history, the actors if you will in the unsung sagas between the major events in the timeline, this is the area we will operate in. The only things that will effect us timeline wise is the release of losttech, the clan invasion and whatever the Devs decide to throw at us. Some of you appear to be getting a little to worked up about this. Take a step back and breathe. No matter what gentlemen, I am looking forward to playing this game with and against you

Kensai the wandering warrior

[Ulric Kell]

I chose the first two because I feel that "Major" events should play-out EXACTLY as they do in canon but the day to day should be fully etched by players.

[Kell Pryde]

I know I am late to the party on this one, but man what a good idea Lucifer. This reminds me a lot of the L5R card game that actually used its tournaments to influence what happened in its sourcebooks.

[Aegis Kleais]

Makoraias, on 03 April 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

In my humblest opinion, the lore (after launch date) should be entirely dictated by the actions of the player. While lore is nice for a game to have (since it does tell a story), when you are basically stuck on a rail-shooter (or in this case, a rail-story), the player feels like he does nothing to contribute to the progression of the story. What incentive would a player have to play the game if everything he or she could do was already pre-determined by whether or not it's considered "canon"? That seems both counter-intuitive for a game based on PvP and pretty much discourages anyone for playing the game (unless you're one of those "don't care about lore, all I care about is my K/D ratio" people).

[Edited because spelling while tired = never successful]

Just a head's up from a usability standpoint. I know the whole 'different font' thing is often done to get people's attention in hopes that they'll always read your posts, but you're using a SERIF font. On screens, especially as what we call "body copy" text (ie, text that's not a headline and is meant ot be read), serif fonts are one of the worst to use (especially at smaller font sizes) There's a reason why the forums are using a sans-serif font at those sizes; because they are significantly easier to read. Because of the difficulty in reading your post, I ignored it completely; but at least wanted to tell you why. *nods respectfully*

Silent, on 02 April 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

You seem pretty riled up, FireNova.

Yeah, but my spelling/grammar checker went critical when it got to his post....

[CeeKay Boques]

Let me ask this then. If Veteran's of BattleTech/Mechwarrior held the reigns to factions, or at least companies in factions...

And the players had control of the factions...

Would you then direct the universe in the same way it happened? Would you adhere to the Lore out of Roleplay and tatical sense, only not falling for the same dupes and ruses, but making new ones? I dont' see the problem with letting the players control the Universe, because in all likelyhood, conflict would arise in much the same way?

Think of Ghost Bear in their jumpship heading towards the IS. Do you not make the same invasion point? With the same goals? What other possible goal could have? Immediately joining forces with DC? Hardly. But perhaps the FRR is more ferocious than before, and stops the advance at 3 worlds only. So you call on another Clan to assist you, despite the loss of Honor...

Now we're starting to deviate from Lore, but only slightly. Everything in the Universe is still in tact, but the players get to attempt to make the same goals happen, but perhaps in a different way. If the Goals of each house and faction are clearly defined by the game, then the Lore should play out close enough to canon to enjoy, but have enough fluidity for us to make decisions and strategies...

[Hangfire]

Although I'm not 'up to speed' with the lore, I do appreciate it, if you stray too far from the canon timeline and let players dictate what happens the clan invasion will look like this.


Just sayin'

[Jakebob]

replaying 'history' with the possibility of changing the original outcome is fun.
replaying 'history' word for word, event for event is boring

That being said, the general progress should adhere more or less to canon, but with some changes allowed. (maybe the Clans are stopped a little further "north", saving more of the FRR this time for example)

[empath]

...or maybe they win the ToR on Tukyyid and take peaceful ownership of Terra...and maybe we don't get as many merc units over to Luthien in time and the capitol and heart of the Draconis Combine falls to the Clammers. Both those battles were pretty close run things, in the final accounting.




Heh...or maybe the Exodus Fleet for the 'PGI parallel dimension' set off in a different direction, and are coming back to from anti-spinward and going to re-enter the Inner Sphere through the Circinus Federation and chew their way to Terra until they get stalled at the Battle of Atreus, and then ComStar bests them in one of their own Trials on the planet of Gallatin?

"careful what you wish for...you just might get it."

[Gun Bear]

I believe that the major points in the BT history should remain the same but that does not mean there is not plenty of opportunity to create more and deeper Battletech History. The lore should be important but it shouldn't be the single dominating force.

[empath]

What you have to remember is The Inner Sphere is BIG- we're talking in the order or TWO THOUSAND inhabited/colonized worlds. Not every one of them is like Hesperus II or Terra or Tharkad or Luthien or Helm or Kittery; theres STILL an aweful lot of planets that are supposedly inhabited yet - in the long publishing history of first FASA and then FanPro - have never had so much as a documented raid or skirmish or mention in any of the sourcebooks and novels.

...there's PLENTY of available space to have our own raids and assaults going on in the background of all the existing storyline.

[El Loco]

empath, on 03 April 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

...or maybe they win the ToR on Tukyyid and take peaceful ownership of Terra...and maybe we don't get as many merc units over to Luthien in time and the capitol and heart of the Draconis Combine falls to the Clammers. Both those battles were pretty close run things, in the final accounting.




Heh...or maybe the Exodus Fleet for the 'PGI parallel dimension' set off in a different direction, and are coming back to from anti-spinward and going to re-enter the Inner Sphere through the Circinus Federation and chew their way to Terra until they get stalled at the Battle of Atreus, and then ComStar bests them in one of their own Trials on the planet of Gallatin?

"careful what you wish for...you just might get it."

I was just thinking about the exact same thing. If I was in charge of the Clans, and I had intel on the IS (though outdated), I would approach Terra from the CC and FWL, because they are the supposedly weakest of the Big 5. See how the IS would have handled the second part of the invasion when many of the industrial complexes used for the production of the new tech and 'Mechs were already under the enemy's control.
And if we are allowed to participate in the Battle of Tukayyid, and we lose, what is going to happen next? Will the invasion stop? Will they continue the war in order to establish a corridor to the Clan Occupation Zones? This would most certainly lead to the FRR's elimination. I don't think many of the FRR affiliated players would like this outcome. Free reign of players and re-writing of the history of the IS after launch sounds less and less desirable to me.

As for joining the Smoke Jaguars, you still have 8 years before the annihilation begins, 10 years before the Clan is history. I think this is a long time, even if it should translate into only 3 or 4 years real time. Nobody is going to force anyone to join a faction they don't want to, we don't even know, as of now, if any of the Clans is going to be available to players after all. So why start arguing about this now? Start discussions on the matter once the devs have made a statement about the Clans...

[CCC Dober]

The lore is a very good source of inspiration, but it was derived from/translated to a different game back in the days.
Back then you could command whole armies, even factions in a turn based game with a couple friends and dice. The level of immersion and control was completely different compared to what we have today. It's like comparing chess and Call of Duty, it's that much of a difference.

Since MW:O has a different pace and even a completely different scope, the devs are free to take the best of both worlds to create a game that surpasses all expectations.