48 replies to this topic

[Ryuu Tetsuhara]

Hello everyone,

A few minutes ago I just commented on the implementation of mech academies and their programs for different Houses and Merc units:

http://mwomercs.com/...my/page__st__20

First of all, would you opt for attending the DCMS academy - as desribed in my posting that I linked above - or would you head for 'instant action' instead?

As a member of the Draconis Combine Mustered Soldiery (DCMS) I would like to know what system or setup you envision for the DCMS academy?

Which standard training mech and which planetary environment(s) would you like to see for the DCMS academy training?

Should training stages 2 - 5 all be evaluated or just stage 5 for the XP, C-bills and starting DCMS rank to be awarded after passing the DCMS academy training and based on the performance score(s) from the stage(s)?

Academy stage 1: Which functions of a mech should be explained/trained and in how much detail?

Academy stage 2: How many different piloting skill tracks would you like to see and on which piloting skills would you place more emphasis than on others? Would you add a time limit or a time bonus points for completing the track(s) faster?

Academy stage 3: How would you implement the weapons training? Would you prefer more standing or moving targets? Would you cover training for all weapon systems and ranges, and on which would you ones focus in particular? Would you make excessive use/weapon overheating an issue or the grouping of weapons? Would you add a time limit for gunnery training or a provide a bonus to those cadets who shoot faster or more accurate?

Academy stage 4: How would you coordinate the battle principles/tactics/manoeuvres training? Would you drop the cadet's mech in a level and let her/him coordinate three additonal NPC mechs with commands and have a specific part of the territory sweep with the mech's sensors? Would you include an objective to shutdown mechs or camouflage them for an ambush of enemy NPC mechs to avoid initial detection and to have the first strike?

Academy stage 5: Would you prefer 2 (yourself and an allied NPC mech under your command) against 6 enemy NPC mechs or rather a 1 (only yourself) on 3 (enemy NPC mechs) 'Trial of Position' test at the end of the DCMS academy training? Would you give the cadet the choice of a mech from a list within a certain mech weight class or would you assign the mech randomly? Would you group the chosen or assigned mech with (allied and) enemy mechs randomly selected from the same weight class or different ones (e.g. one from the same and the next two lower weight classes or assigned at random including all weight classes with at least two of the cadet's weight class)?

Lots of questions, but I am hoping for lots of interesting answers and exciting suggestions on this topic!

Edited by Ryuu Tetsuhara, 02 April 2012 - 01:49 PM.

[Michael Rosario]

I'm sorry, but this idea seems to heavily slant towards penalizing someone for wanting to jump strait into the game.

So you managed to make it through the tutorial... how does that equate to you having a right to get more c-bills/exp/ranking points than someone who already knows how to play the game and gets into it. Unless this "academy" takes ages to finish and the enhancements are a temporary thing to allow those who actually spent the time to catch up to those who jumped strait in.

That being said, here's how I think that a training regimen should work:
Stage 1 - Mech Control Tutorial
A basic overview of how to pilot your mech. Introduces new players to how to move, aim, and shoot. Includes jump jets.
Stage 2 - Weapon Tutorial
A basic overview of how each of the weapons work, and how to manage them. Introduces concepts of ammo, heat, and the use of different types of weapons to get different results.
Stage 3 - Control and Weapons Overview
A sort of "test" where the mechwarrior is sent through an obstacle course and must shoot targets (both stationary and moving), doing so under a certain (albeit easy to achieve) time. Doing so will complete the "mandatory" part of the training. You must complete this to have access to any of the later stages.
Stage 4a - Mech Types Tutorial
A basic overview of the four weight classes of mechs. Gives the players 5 - 10 minutes in a mech of each weight class, allowing them to get a feel for each type of mech and what it does. Doesn't introduce any new concepts.
Stage 4b - Covert Ops. Tutorial
A basic overview on how to stay "under the radar". Introduces concepts of evasive maneuvers, utilizing cover, and electronics warfare.
Stage 4c - Team-based Tactics Turorial
A basic overview on how to work together as a team. Randomly pairs players, each in a different role, into groups of 4 to complete an objective. Introduces concepts of communications, teamwork, and role warfare.
Stage 5 - Officer Training
An advanced look at combat strategies, resource utilization, and mech piloting. This course is only available if you have completed all of the other courses. This course will conclude with a test at the end, which will be a live fire test in a currently-occuring combat mission. If (and only if) you pass (read: gain enough experience in the mission) the test, you gain a small temporary boost to c-bills and personal & faction exp, which would only be enough to allow you to catch up to those who started the game at the same time as you, but jumped into battle and started earning exp right away.

With all that said... Trial of Position? What do we look like, clanners? The only type of trial I want to be in is when I get court martialed for being to offensive to the khan of a clan we're negotiating the surrender of.

[Iron Horse]

We should be able to set up training matches if we so desire, but that's it. As most players do not care about the role-play aspects of video games any implementation will likely go unused, anyway.

[Soviet Alex]

I'd be very surprised if the game didn't come with some kind of tutorial. The need for one has been adequately covered in other threads. And the idea of a Trial of Position is pure Clan. Inner Sphere academies simply don't work like that. Personally, I'm hoping that the tutorial is repeatable, so I can try out different mechs & variants in a "safe" environment. But if that gave you extra XP & C$, wouldn't people just grind it?

The MW3 tutorial taught us the game in 4 short scenarios, and the interface in MW-O does not appear to be any more complex than that. A single player PvBot tutorial mission which ran mostly on your PC to reduce server load would probably do. Although I like the idea of giving it a faction-flavour, it certainly isn't important.

Edited by Soviet Alex, 02 April 2012 - 01:02 AM.

[Charles Martel]

"Trial of Position" is clan, not IS.

I would prefer a mission as the final as IS methodology is unit tactics, not individual combat like the clans.

Edited by Charles Martel, 02 April 2012 - 03:16 AM.

[Ryuu Tetsuhara]

Hi everyone,

Naturally, I am aware that there is no 'Trial of Position' in the Inner Sphere. However, this was just meant as an example (since most people familiar with the canon know what a 'Trial of Position' is) to indicate that there would be a battle between the cadet and NPC/bot mechs on the other side at the end of the academy path ... you can call it 'Trial of the Dragon' if you like and for other faction academies the denotation would differ, but in the end it is all about the principle (a first battle expereince/test that determines the XP, C-bills and/or rank of the cadet). For clarification I changed the poll and the posting, putting 'Trial of Position' in inverted commas.

Michael Rosario, on 01 April 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

I'm sorry, but this idea seems to heavily slant towards penalizing someone for wanting to jump strait into the game.

So you managed to make it through the tutorial... how does that equate to you having a right to get more c-bills/exp/ranking points than someone who already knows how to play the game and gets into it. Unless this "academy" takes ages to finish and the enhancements are a temporary thing to allow those who actually spent the time to catch up to those who jumped strait in.

With all that said... Trial of Position? What do we look like, clanners? The only type of trial I want to be in is when I get court martialed for being to offensive to the khan of a clan we're negotiating the surrender of.

With regard to slanting players the academy is not intended to do so. Since there will be a more of a time commitment than juming into 'instant action', it is just fair that the player enrolling in the academy will be rewarded by additional XP, C-bills and a higher rank (even experienced players or those who think that they know everything there is to know may learn something in the academy or sharpen existing skills).

Let me put it this way, anyone should be given the chance to attend the DCMS academy - even after choosing the 'instant action' path - but at a higher level or later point in time the reward will be less, so that the academy will not become a tool for grinding (preventing that it can be attended several times just to beef up XP, C-bills and faction rank). It could be implemented by the developers that each faction's academy can be attended only once per player account and the later the player decides to attend the academy, the lesser the knowledge/learning effect will be, thus, the lower the XP, C-bills and faction rank reward will be since with age and with previous experience the learning curve/ability generally declines and is slightly lower, respectively. Both paths, academy and 'instant action', have their pros and cons. Instant action will allow you to focus on combat directly with the risk that you may not advance as fast at the beginning (learning the hard way) unless you are experienced and it shows by winning the majority of your (team's) duels against other teams or enemy NPC/bot mechs. For absolute newbies the 'instant action' path is not advisable but after having passed the academy training new players will be versed enough to compete on the battlefield in a more or less commanding military position/rank of House Kurita (depending on how well they did in the academy). While this academy graduate may not have the battlefield experience of an 'instant action' player, she/he may have a better knowledge of tactics and more experience with new game features (not introduced in previous Mechwarrior games) than the experienced 'instant action' player who still behaves the same way he always did on the battlefield (as it worked for her/him), but taking into account new perspectives/options to a lesser degree than the academy graduate.

The 'Trial of Position' denotation has been clarified above.

Soviet Alex, on 02 April 2012 - 01:02 AM, said:

The MW3 tutorial taught us the game in 4 short scenarios, and the interface in MW-O does not appear to be any more complex than that. A single player PvBot tutorial mission which ran mostly on your PC to reduce server load would probably do. Although I like the idea of giving it a faction-flavour, it certainly isn't important.

I would like to see more than 4 short tutorial scenarios as a more comprehensive academy training will certainly immerse players more in the MWO gameplay (it will add another dimension) than a brief tutorial followed by endless battles afterwards, and the long-term motivation for playing MWO will be higher than with a short tutorial and, thereafter, the rookie player will be thrown in the 'cold water' (not really helping those who are completely new to a MechWarrior game).

I think it would be great if the developers can enable different faction flavours for the academies. Different mech battle practices/styles could be taught or suggested depending on which faction is joined.

What specific practices/styles would you like to see in a DCMS academy then?

Edited by Ryuu Tetsuhara, 02 April 2012 - 01:44 PM.

[Charles Martel]

The main issue, is that MWO looks like it's going to have a stronger focus on strategy and tactics than previous entries in the series. All "trials of position" assure is that the commanders are the best shots. The job of a commander is not to be the best shot, his job is to formulate strategy and break that strategy into parts to give objective directions to lower commanders who make tactical decisions on how to execute those objectives.

Most people here presently already have some experience with MechWarrior. So what we really need is some kind of Officer Candidate School system, where people who want to be commanders are trained and evaluated based on ability to command.

Edited by Charles Martel, 02 April 2012 - 02:32 PM.

[Soviet Alex]

The only way we will find out which of us can lead a company is in PvP battles. It's too depend on interpersonal skills to be taught in a bot academy. As for ranks, the only ones that matter are the one you earn with Loyalty Points in your faction and the one your peers give you.

Bottom line: do we NEED it. A Mechwarrior game NEEDS mechs. We have 8 so far. It NEEDS players. We have over 80,000 people registered on the forum. It NEEDS a tutorial to teach us the basic interface. It doesn't NEED an RPG academy experience or an arcade-style "beat the teacher" battle.

[Ryuu Tetsuhara]

Charles Martel, on 02 April 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

The main issue, is that MWO looks like it's going to have a stronger focus on strategy and tactics than previous entries in the series. All "trials of position" assure is that the commanders are the best shots. The job of a commander is not to be the best shot, his job is to formulate strategy and break that strategy into parts to give objective directions to lower commanders who make tactical decisions on how to execute those objectives.

Most people here presently already have some experience with MechWarrior. So what we really need is some kind of Officer Candidate School system, where people who want to be commanders are trained and evaluated based on ability to command.

I agree, maybe it would be a good idea to allow for different pathways within a DCMS academy in line with the four different player paths outlined by the developers? A good commander does not necessarily have to be the best one on one pilot in a mech duel but he will have to make the right decisions and apply the right strategy at the right time, so that his troops will be victorious. The Draconis Combine way of the warrior tends to favour one on one mech combat in contrast to other factions which prefer to fight in a less direct/'samurai-style' approach and rather fancy a concerted group approach. Of course, one may shift the tide of battle to his favour with overall better battle proficiency/skills, but the better battle strategy can be all decisive in the end.

Soviet Alex, on 02 April 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

The only way we will find out which of us can lead a company is in PvP battles. It's too depend on interpersonal skills to be taught in a bot academy. As for ranks, the only ones that matter are the one you earn with Loyalty Points in your faction and the one your peers give you.

Bottom line: do we NEED it. A Mechwarrior game NEEDS mechs. We have 8 so far. It NEEDS players. We have over 80,000 people registered on the forum. It NEEDS a tutorial to teach us the basic interface. It doesn't NEED an RPG academy experience or an arcade-style "beat the teacher" battle.

I don't agree with your assessment as you can surely teach new players better combat tactics and how to use their ressources most effectively (e.g. troop formations, air strikes, use of the environment) in a training academy. Naturally, there are priorities but MWO is not meant to become another shoot'em up game but a simulation with some depth to it. That does not mean that all of it will automatically become a RPG-style game experience, but it could certainly take advantage of such elements within the gameplay. For those who do not fancy such an approach there will always be the 'instant action' game track.

Obviously, we do need more mechs for MWO to appeal to a larger group of gamers and those approx. 80,000 player accounts, not people due to possibility of multiple accounts per person, are already quite a good basis as, frankly speaking, I do not expect WoW dimensions at the start of the game since the latter will have to prove itself at first .

I think that faction-based mech academies would be a big plus over brief standard tutorials used in the past MechWarrior games, but their implementation would surely not be a picnic but instead an additional challenge for the developers ... whether they will be keen to take on this challenge, that is, of course, another question ...

Edited by Ryuu Tetsuhara, 02 April 2012 - 04:21 PM.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

Imo, they should provide options for non-academy MechWarrior training lifepaths, such as for those who join the Ghost regiments.
893 for the win!

[Ryuu Tetsuhara]

A Yakuza path to a military career could be an interesting idea! However, I think it would take a major effort by the developers to add such a careerpath/lifepath system, e.g. based on a profession/background chosen by the player initially, to the game and I am sure there would be plenty of user complaints again, as this would make MWO too complex for some players (those who do not fancy RPG elements so much) but I think it could add something to the game ... just a question if the developers are willing to invest additional time in this.

[Wedge A]

I feel like the training academy should cost c-bills to attend (the dragon doesn't let just any dirty peasant loyal citizen become a mechwarrior) and then give a xp bonus plus a possible rank bonus depending on how well a pilot preformed.

I also feel that any training program should be a one time occurance or limit how offten you can repeat it. More specifically, I think that the actual training courses/missions should be repeatable but the trial of position and xp and any other bonuses should be the things limited.

[tbrminsanity]

Those with the skill (as proven by DCMS training) should get preferential treatment when it comes to what mech and position you have. The DCMS is about individual strength, directed by the power of the Coordinator. We do not, and should never have, the social generals of the Lyranians.

[Michael Rosario]

tbrminsanity, on 04 April 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

Those with the skill (as proven by DCMS training) should get preferential treatment when it comes to what mech and position you have. The DCMS is about individual strength, directed by the power of the Coordinator. We do not, and should never have, the social generals of the Lyranians.

That being said, just because a person is the best pilot doesn't make them the best commander. Just because I can hit a running raven every single shot doesn't mean that I'm the most tatically sound person in my lance/company. I know pleny of good pilots who's best idea is strategy is "run into the trap and spring it, then fight your way out", no matter what size of mech they're piloting. I woudn't want them in command of my lance or company. While I do agree that skill should be rewarded, allowing those with the best piloting skills to command units, whether or not they're fit to command them, is a very bad idea that will end with plenty of bad losses. That's why I'm opposed to the "Trial of Position" idea. Because out on the field you won't have the Coordinator holding you hand, and if you can't cut it as a commander, then you shouldn't be commanding units.

Just saying...

[Alizabeth Aijou]

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The only way we will find out which of us can lead a company is in PvP battles. It's too depend on interpersonal skills to be taught in a bot academy. As for ranks, the only ones that matter are the one you earn with Loyalty Points in your faction and the one your peers give you.

Non-Issue.
Only MechWarriors who happen to be nobility ever get to study at the Wisdom of the Dragon, or the Luthien Pagoda for Officers.
Don't even think that non-preferential treatment exists in the DCMS.
Although with a bit of luck, one might be able to buy one's entrance to either of those two academies.

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A Yakuza path to a military career could be an interesting idea!

And, afaik one of the few, if not the only canon way for the DCMS to get female MechWarriors.
I'd have to check over at CBT forum and ask one of the line developers to be certain.

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I feel like the training academy should cost c-bills to attend (the dragon doesn't let just any dirty peasant loyal citizen become a mechwarrior) and then give a xp bonus plus a possible rank bonus depending on how well a pilot preformed.

Actually, they do. Its called Ghost Regiments.
And no, they do not get a rank bonus based on how well they preform, they all get the rank of Shujin, unless there's an opening in the regiment for a higher rank (which will probably be filled by long-term regiment members instead of fresh recruits).

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Those with the skill (as proven by DCMS training) should get preferential treatment when it comes to what mech and position you have. The DCMS is about individual strength, directed by the power of the Coordinator. We do not, and should never have, the social generals of the Lyranians.

While we don't have social generals, don't expect to get any good equipment unless you belong to one of the more reknown regiments, like the Swords of Light or the Ryuken.

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That being said, just because a person is the best pilot doesn't make them the best commander.

Indeed, whatever noble with a higher title than your's is the better commander.
That's how the Combine works.

[tbrminsanity]

Alizabeth Aijou, on 04 April 2012 - 12:02 PM, said:

While we don't have social generals, don't expect to get any good equipment unless you belong to one of the more reknown regiments, like the Swords of Light or the Ryuken.

If I can prove I'm worthy to be in one of those regiments, shouldn't I be allowed to join them?

[Alizabeth Aijou]

tbrminsanity, on 04 April 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

If I can prove I'm worthy to be in one of those regiments, shouldn't I be allowed to join them?

Still unlikely, afaik.
The SoL requires at least five years of exemplary service in other regiments, and there needs to be an opening.

[Soviet Alex]

(Quote most of the above posts)
Again, lots of roleplaying restrictions that can't be applied to a F2P multiplayer business model. Advanced tech will be either unlocked using Loyalty Points, or bought using real £ (probably the former). Ditto prestige regimental skins (probably the latter).

If you want to say "I'm in the 2nd Sword of Light", then all you have to do is a) join a group calling themselves the 2nd Sword of Light, or buy the 2nd Sword of Light skin for your mech. You don't have to spend 5 real years in an academy, or come from a noble family.

[Pel Morba]

I like the idea of a DCMS Academy very much and believe graduation should reward players who take the time to complete the courses, based upon performance. It's in keeping with roleplaying and in-universe traditions and does not unfairly reward or penalize anyone as all players have the same choices. Players who opt for instant action will be out in the world earning C-bills while the students attend class. Nothing wrong with that.

Can you add some Bushido teachings to the coursework, or at least give it a distinctly Kuritan flavor?

The lessons should increase in complexity until the final, in which the student commands an entire lance in a mission, as previously suggested. Each member should be allowed to complete the DCMSA once to prevent grinding and the game will hopefully include some sort of tutorial so we can sandbox different weight classes and options. Nothing fancy, just some representative stock mechs and an area to practice piloting, basic gunnery, etc. for familiarization training.

Alternatively, if the game doesn't ship with something akin to this, what about making the lessons in the DCMSA repeatable, except for the final? If one is unhappy with their phase I score, or wants to try some different options, then they can take the test again before moving on to phase II, for example. Once a member moves on to the next phase, their score is locked, however. Besides, the more time a person spends in school, the more money and experience they're missing out on in the outside world.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

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Can you add some Bushido teachings to the coursework, or at least give it a distinctly Kuritan flavor?

Dunno how useful it'd be to teach that at a military academy, since part of that bushido stuff is already in the Dictum Honorium, which all loyal Kuritans should follow (if you do not, then you're an enemy of the state, and should be treated as such).
It also includes a section on how to deal with ane enemy that surrenders, and about when to surrender yourself (e.g. never).