48 replies to this topic

[Ryuu Tetsuhara]

Wedge A, on 03 April 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

I feel like the training academy should cost c-bills to attend (the dragon doesn't let just any dirty peasant loyal citizen become a mechwarrior) and then give a xp bonus plus a possible rank bonus depending on how well a pilot preformed.

What, if we assume for a moment, that you have already been regarded as worthy enough to join a faction mech academy at the beginning of the game? Qualifying for mech academy training does not automatically make you a good mechwarrior and based on the different paths/roles (e.g. recon, fire support, front line, and commander skills) I assume that few people will try to balance/distribute evenly their XP and other points for their player character, because you could end up not being really a jack-of-all-trades, but rather someone who will not thrive in any of the above paths/roles. Hence, it seems that specialisation will be the key to success in MWO.

Michael Rosario, on 04 April 2012 - 11:43 AM, said:

While I do agree that skill should be rewarded, allowing those with the best piloting skills to command units, whether or not they're fit to command them, is a very bad idea that will end with plenty of bad losses. That's why I'm opposed to the "Trial of Position" idea. Because out on the field you won't have the Coordinator holding you hand, and if you can't cut it as a commander, then you shouldn't be commanding units.

Fair enough, but will a 'Trial of Position' just reward those who are most capable on the trigger and pilot their mechs as if they are one with them? Depending on how the 'Trial of Position' is set up combat tactics could also play a role. Moreover, in order to obtain a high enough rank to direct other mechwarriors in battle one will have to show her/his capabilities also in battle, otherwise the respect would most likely not be mutual and this could be a rather important detail in the DCMS. I absolutely agree that those who may be the best mech pilots in a battle will not necessarily be the best strategists and decision-makers, but I reckon that the respect will have to be earned within a unit anyway and one would think that a specialisation on a command path should offer that player some advantages, while limiting the player's effectiveness for other paths at the same time. One function of the mech academy would be to guide the player to the role that he would be most suited/talented for ... is there a guarantee that the academy training/choice will always max out cadets' abilities and point them into the right directionm regarding their path/role (?), no, not really and some players may want to be challenged and try to be good in something that has not been recommended to them (during academy training) ... overall, there would still be choices but player's that will not be doing well in one path/role will eventually consider trying a different one.

Pel Morba, on 05 April 2012 - 03:46 AM, said:

Alternatively, if the game doesn't ship with something akin to this, what about making the lessons in the DCMSA repeatable, except for the final? If one is unhappy with their phase I score, or wants to try some different options, then they can take the test again before moving on to phase II, for example. Once a member moves on to the next phase, their score is locked, however. Besides, the more time a person spends in school, the more money and experience they're missing out on in the outside world.

That seems pretty reasonable; however, in my opinion there should be a limit on how often one can repeat the academy training test scenario that will be evaluated (for instance, two more times before the score is locked in, but if the score will be worse than in the previous try the player will have to live with that, too), otherwise, the training test scenarios will just be memorized by some players until the test has been aced and in battle you will usually not get a second chance ... naturally, there should be the opportunity for practicing the player's own skills as often as one wants prior to the tests, but once the test is under way there should be no chance for turning back and cheating (for example, disrupting the internet connection or quitting of the program in the middle of the test, just because the test did not go as expected) will not be an option, but a lost opportunity and dishonor.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

Quote

I feel like the training academy should cost c-bills to attend (the dragon doesn't let just any dirty peasant loyal citizen become a mechwarrior)

They do, actually.
Just don't expect a peasant to ever gain a commissioned officer rank, since that would involve an officer training at either the Wisdom of the Dragon, or the Luthien Pagoda for Officers, and neither of the two make even the pretense of allowing non-nobles to follow a course.
Which limits the ranks of non-noble MechWarriors to that of Shujin, while those lucky enough to own their own BattleMech the rank of Kashira.
The extremely lucky ones might even be fortunate enough to see a promotion to Sho-ko, provided they live long enough.

[Caron]

TUTOR IST IMMER GUT WEIL MAN GLEICH SIEHT WIE DER hASE LÄUFT OHNE CHAET

[Paladin Brewer]

I don't know what's worse, the German or the caps.

[Ryuu Tetsuhara]

How about the author cares to share/translate his capitalised German comment (???) ...

Anyhow, I was just thinking, since the four predefined character/career paths include mechwarriors for recon, fire support, front line, and command positions to date, if it will be a potentially intriguing addition to also introduce a mechwarrrior character/career path that emphasizes spying, sabotage, covert operations, bodyguard, etc. duties in MWO, which would also require the implementation of additional courses with a different training focus in a mech academy program. What are your thoughts on that? I know it would be a very "secret agent"-like character/career option and while some of you may associate the House Liao's Death Commandos with such a character/career path, it would not have to be as extreme/fanatic and elite of the elite as the "Chancellor's strom troopers" though or do you think such a model is unworthy of the DCMS considering House Kurita's background and traditions and, thus, it should not be considered?

Would you opt for selective training within the academy, following an initial general cadet training, allowing the player to choose between the different character/career paths? If so, what would you like to see training program/missions be composed of, if selective training for each of the existing MWO character/career paths were to be introduced in a DCMS academy?

[Fate Aki]

To those that want a Halo style of 'Jump in kill some things and log out when you're bored' then you may want to join a Merc group instead. DCMS expects a level of decorum and a Training house can aide with instilling this. This game will have much to offer and if you choose to ignore parts that others can enjoy then so beit. However, don't deny them their enjoyment either. If they want to RP, let them. If you want to join in that would be gladly accepted as well.

The benefits of the Training House can and should ensure that new players understand the basic concepts and utilities of the game. It will help to reduce the "How do I do that?" and "What role should I play?" questions by giving the player the first hand experience by showing them how to do that and possibly having the Training House suggest, based on their results, which role would they best serve the Combine.

[Fate Aki]

Caron, on 21 April 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

TUTOR IST IMMER GUT WEIL MAN GLEICH SIEHT WIE DER hASE LÄUFT OHNE CHAET

<<Translated for them>>

TUTOR IS ALWAYS GOOD BECAUSE MAN LOOKS THE SAME AS THE RABBIT RUNS WITHOUT Chaet

[shotokan]

I like the idea of training so that we know things of how the mech moves, what effect weapons have on different mechs' how effective heat sinks are in weapons usage. I like the idea of house battles not everyone just shooting at each other. Once we understand these changes to the game then we will be better prepared to face our enemies. Later the Clans. I personally with this knowlage drop as teams into games to improve and revist ideas as necessary. We can share this information and improve. This is what a training school should be about. A new player can drop in and get basic skills and understand what we stand for..

Have I been in this game a long time? Lets say I retired last year is that old enough? Everyone who joins house Kurita and if they stay should know what it means to be in the most noble house of all.

Shotokan . .

Edited by shotokan, 26 April 2012 - 12:48 PM.

[Pereset]

Since I did not see a post like mine, I would like to contribute to this discussion.

In feudal Japan of the eleventh century (specifically the Edo period), existed schools of martial skills, known as bujutsu-ryu. These centers of martial instruction were presided over by the professional fighters (bushi).

There were many schools throughout Japan, that specialized in different types of fighting arts.

There were 6 basic types of ryu:

• Original
  
  • Administered by the founder himself
• Derivative
  
  • Supervised by instructors and teachers who had studied under other experts of a particular specialization and style.
    
  • No firm criteria used to measure the particular level of originality of a specific school
    
  • All schools developed individual styles, strategies and techniques
• Hereditary Ryu
  
  • Operated under the direction of a specific family of teachers
    
  • Transferred from father to son
    
  • Techniques passed on via blood line
    
  • Heirs could be adopted
• Non-Hereditary Ryu (Ryu-ha)
  
  • Less common
    
  • Very few records kept of these schools
    
  • Lost art forms
• Public School
  
  • Officially allowed by the authorities
    
  • Operated in a specific location
    
  • Granted an income in form of productive land, or common rice stipend
• Private School
  
  • Operated without official sanction
    
  • Tolerated on fief land
    
  • No stipend or ignored

Schools numbered as high as 159 different schools in 1843

Short list of prevalent schools in next post.

Ratti, O., & Westbrook, A. (1973). Secrets of the Samurai. Boston, NJ, USA: Charles E. Tuttle, Inc. pp. 154-156

[Pereset]

The following list is a continuation of the post I made regarding ancient Japanese martial schools.

List of Schools (Edo Period) School (ryu) Specialty

Aisu-Kuge Swordsmanship
Araki Chained Weapons
Daito Close Combat
Hakutsu Close Combat
Hasegawa Swordsmanship
Hioki Archery
Hoki Swordsmanship
Hozo-in Spearmanship
Isshin Chained Weapons
Itto Swordsmanship
Jukishin Close Combat
Juki Close Combat
Kajima Archery
Katori-Shinto Swordsmanship
Kito Close Combat
Kyushin Close Combat
Kobo Swimming
Koto-Eiri Swordsmanship
Kukishin Staff
Kankai Swimming
Masaki Chained Weapons
Miura Close Combat
Mukaj Swimming
Muso-Jukiden-Eishen Swordsmanship
Muso-Shinden Swordsmanship
Nen Swordsmanship
Nichioku Swordsmanship
Nihon Archery
Nito Archery
Omori Swordsmanship
Sasanuma Swordsmanship
Sekiguchi Swimming
Shibukawa Close Combat
Shinden Close Combat
Shindo-Muso Swimming
Shinkage Staff
Shin-no-Shindo Sword and Spear
Shinto Close Combat
Soken Swordsmanship
Sosuishitsu Archery
Suifu Close Combat
Takeda Swimming
Takenouchi Swimming
Tendo Spearmanship
Tamiya Swordsmanship
Tenjin-Shinyo Close Combat
Tenshin-Shoden-Katori-Shinto Sword and Spear
Toda Chained Weapons
Yagyu Swordsmanship
Yagyu-Shingan Close Combat
Yamanouchi Swimming
Yoshin Close Combat

Ratti, O., & Westbrook, A. (1973). Secrets of the Samurai. Boston, NJ, USA: Charles E. Tuttle, Inc.

Edited by Pereset, 04 May 2012 - 09:59 PM.

[Ryuu Tetsuhara]

Pereset, on 04 May 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

Since I did not see a post like mine, I would like to contribute to this discussion.

In feudal Japan of the eleventh century (specifically the Edo period), existed schools of martial skills, known as bujutsu-ryu. These centers of martial instruction were presided over by the professional fighters (bushi).

There were many schools throughout Japan, that specialized in different types of fighting arts.

There were 6 basic types of ryu:

• Original
  
  • Administered by the founder himself
• Derivative
  
  • Supervised by instructors and teachers who had studied under other experts of a particular specialization and style.
    
  • No firm criteria used to measure the particular level of originality of a specific school
    
  • All schools developed individual styles, strategies and techniques
• Hereditary Ryu
  
  • Operated under the direction of a specific family of teachers
    
  • Transferred from father to son
    
  • Techniques passed on via blood line
    
  • Heirs could be adopted
• Non-Hereditary Ryu (Ryu-ha)
  
  • Less common
    
  • Very few records kept of these schools
    
  • Lost art forms
• Public School
  
  • Officially allowed by the authorities
    
  • Operated in a specific location
    
  • Granted an income in form of productive land, or common rice stipend
• Private School
  
  • Operated without official sanction
    
  • Tolerated on fief land
    
  • No stipend or ignored

Schools numbered as high as 159 different schools in 1843




Short list of prevalent schools in next post.

Ratti, O., & Westbrook, A. (1973). Secrets of the Samurai. Boston, NJ, USA: Charles E. Tuttle, Inc. pp. 154-156


The following list is a continuation of the post I made regarding ancient Japanese martial schools.

List of Schools (Edo Period) School (ryu) Specialty

Aisu-Kuge Swordsmanship
Araki Chained Weapons
Daito Close Combat
Hakutsu Close Combat
Hasegawa Swordsmanship
Hioki Archery
Hoki Swordsmanship
Hozo-in Spearmanship
Isshin Chained Weapons
Itto Swordsmanship
Jukishin Close Combat
Juki Close Combat
Kajima Archery
Katori-Shinto Swordsmanship
Kito Close Combat
Kyushin Close Combat
Kobo Swimming
Koto-Eiri Swordsmanship
Kukishin Staff
Kankai Swimming
Masaki Chained Weapons
Miura Close Combat
Mukaj Swimming
Muso-Jukiden-Eishen Swordsmanship
Muso-Shinden Swordsmanship
Nen Swordsmanship
Nichioku Swordsmanship
Nihon Archery
Nito Archery
Omori Swordsmanship
Sasanuma Swordsmanship
Sekiguchi Swimming
Shibukawa Close Combat
Shinden Close Combat
Shindo-Muso Swimming
Shinkage Staff
Shin-no-Shindo Sword and Spear
Shinto Close Combat
Soken Swordsmanship
Sosuishitsu Archery
Suifu Close Combat
Takeda Swimming
Takenouchi Swimming
Tendo Spearmanship
Tamiya Swordsmanship
Tenjin-Shinyo Close Combat
Tenshin-Shoden-Katori-Shinto Sword and Spear
Toda Chained Weapons
Yagyu Swordsmanship
Yagyu-Shingan Close Combat
Yamanouchi Swimming
Yoshin Close Combat

Ratti, O., & Westbrook, A. (1973). Secrets of the Samurai. Boston, NJ, USA: Charles E. Tuttle, Inc.

This is an interesting addition to the topic, thank you! I suppose you would like to see this structure and doctrine to be implemented in future DCMS academies?

With regard to the first part of your post I think that some of the elements could be implemented or have already been implemented in the Draconis Combine based on the BattleTech lore.

However, your second post focusses on school specialised in melee combat techniques and swimming. While I hope that melee battle will be implemented in MWO at some stage and mech combat in (under-)water environments will, hopefully, also be integrated in the game by the developers, except for the actual names (e.g. Araki, Jukishin, Kobo, Nihon, Toda, Yoshin) that indicate different training styles and could be used by the Piranha Games/IGP I have my doubts that much else from the list would be used for the academies at present.

Edited by Ryuu Tetsuhara, 10 July 2012 - 02:01 AM.

[Iolobliss]

If such a mech training academy was introduced by the developers, I would consider enlisting, but it would depend on the structure of such an academy.

Besides improving the handling of the mech and the combat strategies it would be nice to have a high score list indicating the top 20 cadets that mastered a certain training scenario best (for example, based on completing the terrain of a training level in the fastest time, having the best target hit rate, or being the most precise when maneuovering a mech past obstacles).

While I would like to face a trial as the final stage of the academy cadet training, similar to the Trial of Position used in the Clans, I would also want it to be as challenging and, therefore, I opted for randomly assigned mechs from different weight classes. However, I think the cadet should be able to choose a mech in which he feels most comfortable for the trial against the three enemy NPC mechs.

As successful academy graduate I think the player should be awarded with XP and a military rank that reflects the academy perfomance; however, I would not grant C-bills for graduating from the academy (not really something that happens in any school) but rather charge the player C-bills for the opportunity to attend the academy.

[Kyone Akashi]

According to sarna.net, the "Trial of Position" is done in the Inner Sphere. However, it is a simulated combat without live weaponry. I am not sure how reliable this information is, but it would seem reasonable. The Clans' Trial could merely be an evolved/bastardized variant of a graduation test from the Star League Defense Force, which has now found its way into the military forces of the Great Houses.

As to the suggestion itself, I will state my reasons for what options I picked:

- 2 mechs vs 6 : because this is the canon information I was able to read
- random mech : simulating the lack of choice of a fresh cadet concerning such matters (could be player faction's signature light 'mech?)
- only XP as reward : a mixture of realism and as compensation for missing out on "real" combat + rewards for the time
- same tonnage by enemy : evening the odds, especially when the player only has a light 'mech

I feel a certain reward for attending this "academy" is justified. After all, it takes up time that could be invested in a real combat, and the rewards that it would have yielded. Maybe the academy could give more xp than a real combat mission, but no c-bills or rank?

[Rider Kick]

So, how do we get in contact to be a part of the academy exactly? I can tell you now I do have some experience I run laser based assaults mostly though I do have experience with Archers mostly the stock model of two lrm 15s and two large lasers.

[Rodney28021]

DCMS final exam should be a duel one on one with a NPC mech of same weight as the player. DC is big on dueling.
But you should make school course based on battletech era subjects for samurai training. Get the Battletech: A Time of War is the latest edition PnP RP book for your CBT RP info needs.

Edited by Rodney28021, 04 June 2012 - 09:45 AM.

[Ryuu Tetsuhara]

Rider Kick, on 03 June 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

So, how do we get in contact to be a part of the academy exactly? I can tell you now I do have some experience I run laser based assaults mostly though I do have experience with Archers mostly the stock model of two lrm 15s and two large lasers.

So you would like to be an academy instructor, piloting an Archer-like mech (since the Archer is an Unseen mech type, it is not clear whether or not it will see the light of day in MWO ever) for laser-based assault or long-range missile support mech training scenarios? Well, I am not sure if the developers are taking mech academies across the different factions into consideration, but your best shot in becoming an academy instructor might be to get in touch with them directly (the more interest/demand there is, the more likely we will see mech academies happening).

Rodney28021, on 04 June 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

DCMS final exam should be a duel one on one with a NPC mech of same weight as the player. DC is big on dueling.
But you should make school course based on battletech era subjects for samurai training. Get the Battletech: A Time of War is the latest edition PnP RP book for your CBT RP info needs.

The duelling part is true, but I would still prefer not limiting it to a single NPC mech of the same weight class per cadet, but three enemy NPC mechs per player side mech, approaching in waves ... this will put the cadet under a bit of time pressure, simulating real battle more closely and allowing him/her to max out his/her potential as figthing just one enemy mech might prove to be too simple. Moreover, if a rank will be assigned afterwards, it could be done based on the enemy NPC mechs destroyed/damaged in the final test.

Kyone Akashi, on 03 June 2012 - 12:24 AM, said:

According to sarna.net, the "Trial of Position" is done in the Inner Sphere. However, it is a simulated combat without live weaponry. I am not sure how reliable this information is, but it would seem reasonable. The Clans' Trial could merely be an evolved/bastardized variant of a graduation test from the Star League Defense Force, which has now found its way into the military forces of the Great Houses.

As to the suggestion itself, I will state my reasons for what options I picked:

- 2 mechs vs 6 : because this is the canon information I was able to read
- random mech : simulating the lack of choice of a fresh cadet concerning such matters (could be player faction's signature light 'mech?)
- only XP as reward : a mixture of realism and as compensation for missing out on "real" combat + rewards for the time
- same tonnage by enemy : evening the odds, especially when the player only has a light 'mech

I feel a certain reward for attending this "academy" is justified. After all, it takes up time that could be invested in a real combat, and the rewards that it would have yielded. Maybe the academy could give more xp than a real combat mission, but no c-bills or rank?

2 vs. 6 mechs will not give you as much direct control though, as you will have to instruct your NPC partner in battle, unless the developers would implement a single respawning (once the first mech is destroyed) against 6 mechs launched in waves. However, I would prefer to instruct an allied NPC mechwarrior, fighting against 6 (wave) mechs, than having a final test program in which the mech piloted is respawned once after destruction.

The random mech approach could be quite a challenging element, if the cadet has never piloted a mech of the type he gets assigned to before (during his previous academy training) and if the (faction's signature) mech models differ substantially in terms of steering/control and available armament, but it will definitely add spice to the Trial of Position.

If rank is not an option and C-bills should rather be paid to attend the academy than expecting to get any financial rewards from attending it, besides additonal XP an indicator that one has mastered a specific military academy of the DCMS for everyone else on the battlefield to see might be a nice add-on/reward (e.g. academy insignia, specific academy battle colours paint theme) and could attract more players to attend the academy training in spite of the academy admission/tuiton fees and the time/bonuses sacrificed for the academy training (off the regular faction missions). Awarding extra mech piloting skill points, that cannot be earned in regular faction missions, could also be an element that the developers could introduce for faction academies, thereby,make them more attractive in spite of the initial admission payment. Overall, academy attendance should aim at potentially improving every player's skills, shouldn't it?

[Rayspace]

Honestly, I think this has a more RPG feel to it. Mechwarrior was the original RPG for the battletech universe. There are pilot experience paths in the game. Its a "lite" RPG with a heavy action component. I would prefer to see players form training groups and work within their groups to find those with sound command skills. As far as factional rank goes, I am not sure it will ever amount to much in the way of real command power. I too would like to see faction specific RPG elements however I have not been seeing anything in the dev posts to indicate that this is going to be happening. That being the case we would be better off as a factional group coming up with our own training system that takes over after any generic tutorial the Devs provide. We might even make an alliance with another group of factional players to arrange vs matches for our people to practice in 12 on 12 matches for command experience.

[SOGNeon]

Edo period was starting the 17th century, not the 11th, but that is a minor detail.

in truth what a dev run mech academy is most likely to feasibly be is the bot "taught" piloting and operations tutorial. if we want something above and beyond that, we will have to create it. the problem there is who will teach it and how good the program would then be. you would have to find some elite players who would be willing to give up "real" game play to teach a bunch of relative newbies. this takes a personality type that is not common among the more aggressive players who develop the top end skill sets. and that would be assuming that the devs allow us a freeplay mode where we are able to fight ourselves without incurring negative scores for team kills, or destroying our mechs (I don't know too many people who are going to be willing to keep paying for repairs so that his own team mates can use him as a makiwari...

on the other hand if such an environment is permitted by the devs, I would love to see a kensai kami program started. (for those who are not familiar with background story it is a top gun school where the best warriors from each unit get to attend and train under the best mech warriors in the DCMS for a couple months. even passing the program says you are a truly elite mechwarrior, much less getting a high score) again we would have to have some of the top players (and they will sort themselves out by reputation once the game play is underway) willing to set aside real game play in order to teach other players how to be better players. just being good at playing is not enough, they would have to be good teachers as well. opfor players would have to be elite in their own right, be willing to play down to the level of the student, and be willing to take instruction from the head instructor, follow orders and battle tactics that the lesson is centered on. In universe just passing kensai kami is a huge honor, and can really make your career, but in the real world, it would boil down to just another way to improve your skills.the honor of participating in the program would be less so, but the real honor would be to those few who did so well they where asked to help teach<G> (as in the real world top gun schools and the game universe kensaikami program.)

[Blacke]

I think there should be a tutatorial but there shouldn't be much in the way for rewards. Position and rank should be earned by game play over time.

[Lord Ikka]

I am assumimg that there will be an in-game academy already, as soon as you choose whether or not to join a House. I suppose that after the trainee starter you will be a low ranked Mechwarrior in the House, and will soon rank up through in-game missions.