101 replies to this topic

[Insidious Johnson]

Inside every heavy is a medium wanting to get out.

[Thomas Hogarth]

Kudzu, on 05 April 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

The Thug says "Hi".
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Thug

that's an assault with the secondary firepower less than that of a warhammer.

[Solis Obscuri]

Thomas Hogarth, on 05 April 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

As a note, not one of those, even the rare ComStar gifts, can replicate what a Warhammer or Marauder can do. Sure, you've got some chassis with twin long-range weapons and support armaments, but PPCs are point damage. There's a world of difference between an LRM-20 and a PPC damage-wise. Large lasers are medium-range weapons, and definitely fall sort of PPCs in damage delivery.

CLPT-K2 comes pretty close.

Thomas Hogarth, on 05 April 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

Frankly, I'm not really sure what the disconnect is. The reseen should be 100% fine to use, unless we're not being told something. But if that is the case, just drag out the Battleaxe and Hector - predecessors of the Warhammer and Marauder, respectively - give them Warhammer and Marauder stats and pretend they continued in development while the WHM and MAD never got produced. Yeah, it kind of takes a dump on canon, but the end result is we get the WHM and MAD stats with different art and a different name.

I don't know what the issue with the reseen is either.

Thomas Hogarth, on 05 April 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

People that don't know the lore won't know any different, and people that do know the lore will know the controversy that surrounds the WHM and MAD. Therefore, they will be able to figure out what happened and will smirk at PGIs cleverness.

I think there remains a question of whether re-reseen 'mechs would be acceptable if the reseen aren't. It may be more of a can of worms than PGI wants to embroil itself in until Catalyst Games can get things squared up with HG and the other parties.

[LaorDeLove]

I think the Cataphract or the Champion would be good, but I think the Orion would be better since it does have a weight advantage. LOL Chubby little mech.

[Kudzu]

Thomas Hogarth, on 06 April 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

that's an assault with the secondary firepower less than that of a warhammer.

It's 5/10 tons more, meets the critera of dual PPC's, has a much better heat curve and armor with the same speed.

[verybad]

The Thug is a better mech fighting mech than a Warhammer. As an overall mech, the Warhammer is more versatile with it's infantry fighting capabilities, however as infantry are unlikely to be in the game...

Of course since the Thug was mentioned, I am required by Draconis Combine law to mention the Hatamoto Chi, a mech with similiar weaponry, and many more variants. It's also one of the few mechs with culturally affected design that manages to look pretty cool (imho)

[Thomas Hogarth]

Well hell, if we're comparing assaults to heavies while simultaneously ignoring the increased cost and maintenance requirements AND ignoring the fact that any assault is less common than a heavy AND ignoring the fact that the ones that serve as replacements tend to be pretty faction-specific and on the rare side... then yeah, there are a few assaults than can serve as viable replacements.

Using that logic, if you're in the market for a Corolla, then I think you should get an F-250. They both have four wheels and go from point A to B. Sure, it's more expensive and uses a lot more gasoline, but I guess we can safely ignore that.

[Kudzu]

Thomas Hogarth, on 06 April 2012 - 12:01 PM, said:

Well hell, if we're comparing assaults to heavies while simultaneously ignoring the increased cost and maintenance requirements AND ignoring the fact that any assault is less common than a heavy AND ignoring the fact that the ones that serve as replacements tend to be pretty faction-specific and on the rare side... then yeah, there are a few assaults than can serve as viable replacements.

Using that logic, if you're in the market for a Corolla, then I think you should get an F-250. They both have four wheels and go from point A to B. Sure, it's more expensive and uses a lot more gasoline, but I guess we can safely ignore that.

We're not talking about the difference between a Rifleman and an Atlas. You know as well as I do that the upper end of a weight class and the lower end of one above it are basically interchangable.

To fit your anaology it's more like wanting a Jeep Cherokee and I say why not a Ford Explorer.

[soulfire]

Thinking about our so called RARE mechs maybe those should be offered either at a c-bill auction or be able to be purchased with real money for some expensive amount so that there will be only a few. Lets say $50 or more for one in game. Believe me someone would pay $100 if they wanted th mech bad enough and figured they would be one of very few to own it. i dont care either way but auction would be interesting in that game designers would have a better control on how many would exist. Every once in awhile a rare mech is found or a family that has had a certain mech for generations releases one and it goes on cbill auction for any and all to bid.

[Thomas Hogarth]

Kudzu, on 06 April 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

We're not talking about the difference between a Rifleman and an Atlas. You know as well as I do that the upper end of a weight class and the lower end of one above it are basically interchangable.

To fit your anaology it's more like wanting a Jeep Cherokee and I say why not a Ford Explorer.

And you know as well as I do that there is a 1.7M CB difference between the THG-10E and the WHM-6R.

That means there is a 22% difference in up-front costs between the THG and WHM. 22% is nothing to sneeze at.
If you want to compare the MAD and THG, the difference is smaller, about 15%. Still significant, and furthermore when you consider that the MAD brings a third long-range weapon to the table, the comparison gets even more murky.

And all of this is before factoring in higher maintenance costs.

To refactor the comparison once more, you're claiming I should get a Explorer when it costs 22% more than a Cherokee, and uses more gas.

Ideally, every weight class should have four types represented: A brawler 'Mech, a Jack-of-all trades 'Mech, a long-range point-damage 'Mech, and a long-range scatter damage 'Mech. All of these should, for immersion purposes, be represented by 'Mechs that can readily be found in any house army. Any selections past that is pure delicious gravy.

[RickDiasPK]

I wouldn't be too sad if the Unseen/Reseen never show up. The only one I have a serious love for is the Thunderbolt, the rest are optional to me. I'd even accept serious visual redesigns of any of them (TDR included).

If you remove them from the Heavy list though... as numerous people have already pointed out, you're still well covered. I can field a coherent force consisting mostly of various Guillotines, Black Knights, and a few Orions. If the GLT or BL-*-KNT show up I will be very happy indeed.

[Mark Brandhauber]

To add to a good list, the Crusader and Exterminator (there would have been neutered ones around?)

[Alizabeth Aijou]

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you get heavies few people have seen before, heavies hardly mentioned, heavies not seen in previous mechwarriors

Erm, the Dragon was in MW4Mercs with the IS 'Mech pack added.
Champion was in MW3, ditto for the Orion.

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http://www.sarna.net...lin_(BattleMech)

Was originally made in the periphery, not by C*.

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i miss the Merlin -new design but allready available at 3049

3010, even. Yeah, the periphery managed to produce the first new 'mech design in well over a century.

As for which 'Mechs could be seen in 3049:
Champion, Crossbow, Dragon (already confirmed), Galahad, Grand Dragon, Lancelot, Merlin, Ostroc, Ostsol, Quickdraw, Axman, Bombardier, Catapult, Cestus, Exterminator, JagerMech, Koschei, Ostwar, Ostbosch, Von Rohrs, Battleaxe, Caesar, Cataphract, Excalibur, Grasshopper, Guillotine, Hector, Shootist, Black Knight, Flashman, Hammerhands, Helepolis, Orion, and Stalker.
That's what... 34 different heavy 'Mechs?
And that's not even counting variants.
Going to 3052 adds only 4 new 'Mechs to the list.

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and the -5D was prototyped in '47. How was this prior to the 4thSW?

Actually, it was 3037, you're off by a decade.

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Out of your list, I've selected a few 'Mechs to share commonality numbers for by picking the faction that uses the design the most, and posting those numbers. If we were to calculate commonality in the entire Inner Sphere, these would appear much more rare than this method. Numbers are presented in a out of 1,000 format for easy comparison.

Based on what? Xotl's RATs?

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Per 3039 RATs

Which are only meant to give a faction-flavoured lance/company for quick pick-up games.
They are not accurate representations of the 'Mechs used by each house.
As stated by Herb (may his nukes find their targets always).
Xotl's RATs are the only thing that gets even close towards getting an accurate force for a given year, which still isn't that accurate, since it seems to forget about the Concord of Kapteyn.

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That means there is a 22% difference in up-front costs between the THG and WHM. 22% is nothing to sneeze at.

Which, due to the way that FASAnomics work, isn't an issue to House militaries.
Production rates of 'mechs are usually a far bigger issue.

Edited by Alizabeth Aijou, 06 April 2012 - 03:28 PM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

More to the point the Thug, with only 2 weapon systems was easier to maintain and resupply. one of the reasons I used it in our RP TT games rather than the Warhammer. The extra armour came in handy as well.

[Thomas Hogarth]

Alizabeth Aijou, on 06 April 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

As for which 'Mechs could be seen in 3049:
Champion, Crossbow, Dragon (already confirmed), Galahad, Grand Dragon, Lancelot, Merlin, Ostroc, Ostsol, Quickdraw, Axman, Bombardier, Catapult, Cestus, Exterminator, JagerMech, Koschei, Ostwar, Ostbosch, Von Rohrs, Battleaxe, Caesar, Cataphract, Excalibur, Grasshopper, Guillotine, Hector, Shootist, Black Knight, Flashman, Hammerhands, Helepolis, Orion, and Stalker.
That's what... 34 different heavy 'Mechs?
And that's not even counting variants.
Going to 3052 adds only 4 new 'Mechs to the list.

I forget, how many Ostwars are there in the IS in 3049? How many Crossbows? How many Galahads? How many Koschei? How many OstBosch? (Hell, what are the stats for the OstBosch? Do we really want a forum joke-turned-RW side note in MWO?) How many Von Rohrs? How many Battleaxes? How many Hectors? How many Hammerhands? How many Heleopolis?

We're going beyond rare and now dredging up 'Mechs that have been straight-up extinct for 300 years or more.

THAT BEING SAID:

I would not at all be adverse to the Battleaxe and Hector being fluffed as being in continual development and not going extinct, giving them WHM/MAD stats, and calling it good. BTX-9R* has a nice ring to it, and the Hector can go ahead and start at the same numbering convention as the MAD: HOR-3R.

*skipped over the 8D as that is a jihad unit

Alizabeth Aijou, on 06 April 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

Actually, it was 3037, you're off by a decade.

C'mon man, If you're going to get snippy, at least do your research.
http://www.masteruni...Marauder-MAD-5D

OH YEAH, almost forgot:

Alizabeth Aijou, on 06 April 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

[color=#959595]Which, due to the way that FASAnomics work, isn't an issue to House militaries.[/color]
[color=#959595]Production rates of 'mechs are usually a far bigger issue. [/color]

Two problems here: Prices listed are in factory prices. Realistic prices for rare 'Mechs that are good would likely be higher, while common 'Mechs would likely be lower. I don't think you'll argue that there are more Thugs produced than Warhammers. I doubt that PGI will incorporate dealer markups in 'Mech costs, but if we're dragging canon setting considerations in, let's drag them ALL in.

Secondly, I don't see how PGI could base earnings on CB if CB don't matter, and only production availability do.

Edited by Thomas Hogarth, 06 April 2012 - 04:37 PM.

[Thomas Hogarth]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 06 April 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:

More to the point the Thug, with only 2 weapon systems was easier to maintain and resupply. one of the reasons I used it in our RP TT games rather than the Warhammer. The extra armour came in handy as well.

Depends on your GM. Some might point out that parts for Thugs are less common than parts for Warhammers, leading to the WHM being more easily maintained.

I'd agree that such detail of maintenance is probably too fine for a TT campaign, but an 80 ton unit still straight-up has more maintenance requirements than a 70 tonner.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I made the suggestion in another thread about putting in mechs with new names but the same stats as the unseen, your idea would be more canonical. It still leaves the best mediums out unfortunately - SHawl, PHawk, Griffin and Wolverine, although these really belong in another thread.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Thomas Hogarth, on 06 April 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

Depends on your GM. Some might point out that parts for Thugs are less common than parts for Warhammers, leading to the WHM being more easily maintained.

I'd agree that such detail of maintenance is probably too fine for a TT campaign, but an 80 ton unit still straight-up has more maintenance requirements than a 70 tonner.

We had a good GM - plus he lost the roll . It's been a while know and many of the rules have changed but I do remember that it worked out not very much more due to the lesser number of systems invoved. Overall weight had less effect than you might think.
As fore detail - we were all science nerds - we thrived on detail

[VPrime]

Ostroc/Ostol

[Alizabeth Aijou]

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C'mon man, If you're going to get snippy, at least do your research.
http://www.masteruni...Marauder-MAD-5D

Odd... SSW still lists it at 3037.
Guess I'll hafta subit a correction to SSW for that. >_>
On a side note, you're probably correct, since DHS didn't appear until 3040.

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Secondly, I don't see how PGI could base earnings on CB if CB don't matter, and only production availability do.

FASAnomics, as I said.

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How many OstBosch? (Hell, what are the stats for the OstBosch? Do we really want a forum joke-turned-RW side note in MWO?)

Just checking to see if anyone would notice.

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I forget, how many Ostwars are there in the IS in 3049? How many Crossbows? How many Galahads? How many Koschei? How many Von Rohrs? How many Battleaxes? How many Hectors? How many Hammerhands? How many Heleopolis?

Unknown, most likely.
But you never know what could turn up with those Lostech caches.
Also, the Ostwar is quite definitely around in some form or another, due to those "paddle" hands being used as replacement parts on the Ostroc.