68 replies to this topic

[VarietyOfCells]

Some of the points brought up don't make sense.

Being a left handed player doesn't have any effect on how you control a mech. You don't control the arms independently so it doesn't matter.

The only things that do matter are circle strafing and cover to a lesser extent. You can't really give yourself an advantage with cover because you aren't going to plan out your mission in that much detail that you can know you'll be taking cover and peering around the left side of an object for a majority of the game. I'm sure there will be plenty of structures you can peer around the right side of too.

As for circle strafing, you aren't going to know what mechs the other team are dropping with so how would you know if you should drop left handed or right? It sounds like a very strategic choice, but I feel it relies on information that you aren't going to have until you're in the battle already.

If you are able to switch which arm you favor in the mechlab then feel free I say. But mirroring mechs adds such a tiny advantage to the 5% that would choose to take advantage of it that I don't think it's worth the time to code.

[Deaths Touch]

VarietyOfCells, on 03 April 2012 - 06:57 AM, said:

It sounds like a very strategic choice, but I feel it relies on information that you aren't going to have until you're in the battle already.

This right here is a much better answer than I could have ever come up with.

[SweetJackal]

VarietyOfCells, on 03 April 2012 - 06:57 AM, said:

If you are able to switch which arm you favor in the mechlab then feel free I say. But mirroring mechs adds such a tiny advantage to the 5% that would choose to take advantage of it that I don't think it's worth the time to code.

For a pickup group or average play, I'll agree.

But in high end skill matches with premade teams a Lance can have two of it's mechs mirrored if they are asym. It is an aspect of planning that can be done before dropping into the fight. And I'll speak from experience when I say that at the high end every advantage matters.

[Trogusaur]

Allowing the other side of the 'mech to carry the big gun would definitely invite further diversity in the mechlab. My only concern is that by giving both arms the capability to carry a PPC or heavy AC, you are opening a can of worms for heavy weapon boating that many people simply just don't want. Should this be allowed, there should be some safeguard in the mechlab preventing both arms from carrying the extra load of two of the same weapons. Even better, do an "arm swap", if you will.

Personally, I really like this idea. Now all the sudden some Centy shields are on the other side, preventing pilots from exploiting the exact same unarmed side.

Edited by Lord Trogus, 03 April 2012 - 07:15 AM.

[Trevnor]

Well, speaking as a left-hander myself, I could actually care less. While, yes, it would provide an interesting tactical stratagem, it's not something that would provide a huge bonus. I've played so many games where the gun is on the right side, that I've just gotten used to it. Switching sides throws me off.

Also, on a side note: 15% of the worlds population is left-handed, that's a few hundred million of us. Fun factoid!

[VarietyOfCells]

SuckyJack, on 03 April 2012 - 07:14 AM, said:

For a pickup group or average play, I'll agree.

But in high end skill matches with premade teams a Lance can have two of it's mechs mirrored if they are asym. It is an aspect of planning that can be done before dropping into the fight. And I'll speak from experience when I say that at the high end every advantage matters.

Ok, I'll have to admit that what you're saying does seem to make sense... but as I think about it further I'm not quite catching on to the advantage. Aesthetically I can totally see it. Paroling in a V formation would look so much cooler if the two wings were mirrored.

But as for combat, are you talking about peering out from both sides of a structure? Alright, let's suppose that that is something you and your lance have practiced, and you're mirrored because you happen to be in two mechs with right arm biases. You still have to find an object that is big enough to fit two mechs behind, but small enough where the other mech couldn't just as easily find some other right handed cover.

What I'm trying to say is that mirroring provides you with such a limited advantage (having two mech that are mostly hidden behind one object firing their big guns instead of one being mostly hidden behind an object and the other having to fully expose to get a shot off from behind that same object) in such an incredibly limited situation that it's not worth programing.

Yes, if it's put in the game people are going to find a way to make it useful (possibly even in an unfair way). But if it's not in the game? No one is going to care.

Edited by VarietyOfCells, 03 April 2012 - 07:36 AM.

[Requital]

Hangfire, on 03 April 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I am lefthanded,, my mech isn't.

^ This

Just because a pilot prefers it is irrelevant in my opinion. How many military vehicles today have a "left handed version"? Sure, this is the future, and I would fully expect that one of the hundreds of cockpits available for purchase is for left handed use, and since I have read in text books that many of the controls were programmable I would expect that they would at least offer ambidextrous use. However, the cost of switching a hunchbacks gun mount from one side to the other....well....it may be possible, but not practical. Not to say it couldn't be done, but if lore hounds are arguing about us being able to change weapon loadouts because of the cost and difficulty, something tells me taking the whole side from a mech and reversing it might be a bit much to ask for.

What is more, think of it this way, all the mechs stabilizing systems are programmed to adjust for fire from a certain area, the myomer fibers would be stronger, everything would be built around the weapons platform to some degree, especially in the case of an off centered hunchback that was built to mount a really big gun on one side of the mech. The amount of labor and re-engineering (especially considering this game starts at a time when the IS engineers are finally just now starting to fully understand the technology behind mechs and how they really work) would be a huge project.

[SweetJackal]

Actually, not behind the same piece of cover. The point of Mirroring is being able to make use of different cover than a non-mirrored mech while having the same firelines, creating an overlapping field of fire without wasted tonnage because of unused weapons on a sym mech or having to expose more of your mech to create that overlapping field of fire.

Mech Mirroring adds flexibility to asym mechs which allows a better adoption of Small Arms Tactics and Squad Tactics to a mech scale. Otherwise mechs do not have the flexibility and maneuverability to make effective use of such tactics.

And if there is so much as a single urban map then mech mirroring will be useful and provide it's advantage in nearly every match. It would allow one model of mech to fire from both sides of the same street in the same direction.

Edit: Also, for comparing to modern military, we don't have any asym combat vehicles that can play to the terrain in any real way. The average infantry-man is flexible enough that it doesn't matter if they are right or left handed.

Edited by SuckyJack, 03 April 2012 - 07:53 AM.

[Aegis Kleais]

Well you will be viewing the game from First Person, inside a cockpit, so chances are you won't be seeing your arms/weapon in traditional FPS games where you can mirror the weapon to the other side.

That being said, I'm left handed, and like the world forcing you to just accommodate everything being made for righties, you adapt. Heck, they even took Link, one of my fave heroes from the Legend of Zelda franchise, someone who I felt a connection for due to his left-handedness in the game, and turned him ambidextrous in later series, removing that camaraderie altogether in a fell swoop.

My vote here is to keep weapons on their original sides. A non-symmetrical design is what makes those chassis unique. Knowing you have a LBX on the right and LRMs on the left is just part of what you'll have to commit to memory on your fave chassis.

[Tempest Corvus]

as long as u can put it on symmetricly in the mech lab than its fair game

[Aegis Kleais]

Swapping non-symmetrical Mechs would require there to be twice the models for that chassis. It also confuses players who, let's say have memorized that a "Thanatos' left arm houses a large ballistic weapon and then just flipped that on someone. It takes skill for players to learn where certain Mechs can equip certain weapons for strategic damaging. flipping the model would randomize this.

Besides, if you can't see the arms/weapons, who cares that a certain weapon type comes out on one side and a different on the other?

FPS used viewable weapons on screen to quickly show the player which weapon they had equipped. As a Mech pilot you have ALL weapons available at all times, there's nothing on your screen to visually indicate this aside from a weapon info panel that is textual/graphic.

[MaddMaxx]

If you Mirrored a Hunchback, wouldn't its AC then fire to the rear or backwards? lol

And there is little to no RH biased left in society today. My wife is a Lefty and we can buy anything we need in a Left handed version. Even if some things seem a bit silly - like a left handed paring knife.

[Garth Erlam]

VarietyOfCells, on 03 April 2012 - 06:57 AM, said:

Some of the points brought up don't make sense.

Being a left handed player doesn't have any effect on how you control a mech. You don't control the arms independently so it doesn't matter.

The only things that do matter are circle strafing and cover to a lesser extent. You can't really give yourself an advantage with cover because you aren't going to plan out your mission in that much detail that you can know you'll be taking cover and peering around the left side of an object for a majority of the game. I'm sure there will be plenty of structures you can peer around the right side of too.

As for circle strafing, you aren't going to know what mechs the other team are dropping with so how would you know if you should drop left handed or right? It sounds like a very strategic choice, but I feel it relies on information that you aren't going to have until you're in the battle already.

If you are able to switch which arm you favor in the mechlab then feel free I say. But mirroring mechs adds such a tiny advantage to the 5% that would choose to take advantage of it that I don't think it's worth the time to code.

Try playing Counter-Strike with left-handed view on. It's not that it changes how the 'Mech works, it's that your brain is saying 'right = where anything I am manipulating is' and the screen is showing that left = where manipulated item is.

(If it helps any, I'm a righty, and build my 'Mechs like boxers in games like MW4 - long range weapons in the left hand; for 'jabbing', close range weapons in the right hand; for 'uppercut/hook/cross')

[Requital]

MaddMaxx, on 03 April 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

If you Mirrored a Hunchback, wouldn't its AC then fire to the rear or backwards? lol

And there is little to no RH biased left in society today. My wife is a Lefty and we can buy anything we need in a Left handed version. Even if some things seem a bit silly - like a left handed paring knife.

well, while some things are ambidextrous or offered in a left hand variety, many things are not. How many cars in the US are set up with a gear shifter on the other side of the floor or column? How many weapons are set up from the factory to eject shells to the left(even if you are left eye dominant, you cannot count on every weapon being customizable or set up from the factory for left side ejection unless special ordered). The reality is, it is still a righty world, and majority does rule, and in an era where they have fusion power, but yet drive gasoline cars, often use standard bullets, and rely on feudal governments, I would not expect much more than left hand lay out controls.

[MaddMaxx]

Requital, on 03 April 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

well, while some things are ambidextrous or offered in a left hand variety, many things are not. How many cars in the US are set up with a gear shifter on the other side of the floor or column? How many weapons are set up from the factory to eject shells to the left(even if you are left eye dominant, you cannot count on every weapon being customizable or set up from the factory for left side ejection unless special ordered). The reality is, it is still a righty world, and majority does rule, and in an era where they have fusion power, but yet drive gasoline cars, often use standard bullets, and rely on feudal governments, I would not expect much more than left hand lay out controls.

Then import a Left handed car from Europe if it bothers you that much. Rifle ejection system bias? really... So you mention 2 items and the world is RH biased still. Wowzers.

[Rattlehead NZ]

Or choose a mech with a weapon on each arm. Warhammer for example.

You can swap those around to your hearts content

[EDMW CSN]

I prefer a hybrid Mechlab + hardpoint system.... I mean there is even an Arrow IV / MRM-30 Urbie.....

[Helmer]

Garth Erlam, on 03 April 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

(If it helps any, I'm a righty, and build my 'Mechs like boxers in games like MW4 - long range weapons in the left hand; for 'jabbing', close range weapons in the right hand; for 'uppercut/hook/cross')

Love the analogy . I've used the motto " Left hand quantity , Right hand quality" for years . I'm proud of the range and speed of my jab.

Back to the thread . I'm posting from my phone , so apologies if this has already been mentioned ..

I like the idea as long as its supported by the Mechlab . It adds a bit more tactics to engagements . If you're used to taking out 'mech Xs right arm/torso first it's a shock when you've wasted precious time and ammo for less than the expected results.

I'd also hope the Information warfare pillar supports this . During the last phase of mech targeting identification it would be nice if weapon location was part of the information given. Implementing it in the UI might be a challenge tho ...




Cheers .

Edited by Helmer, 03 April 2012 - 09:02 AM.

[Volume]

If maps are symmetrical, but focal fighting points are towards the center, this can lead to imbalance...If two 'Mechs with left-handed weapons are hiding behind a square column (like a building) and popping out to fire with their arms to shoot down the same valley, the one who started on one side of the map would have his more powerful weaponry exposed, while the other would not.

Like if you have a box, and people standing on either side of it, with only their left arms exposed...

[Requital]

MaddMaxx, on 03 April 2012 - 08:56 AM, said:

Then import a Left handed car from Europe if it bothers you that much. Rifle ejection system bias? really... So you mention 2 items and the world is RH biased still. Wowzers.

*shrug* doesn't bother me at all...I am ambidextrous. I shoot with my right or left. I have driven cars with right or left hand drive, and they have right hand drive in more countries than just Europe...I suppose I could list studies and statistics for you on how many people are right handed, and how much of the world is set up for right handed or left handed use, but what is the point? No matter if you are a righty or lefty, the point is the majority is right handed, there are still plenty of people right handed, and most left handed people have learned to adapt. I would not expect that to change in a fictional future where parts of the government, society, and technology has actually backpedaled from where we are today.

Possible? yes...likely? No. That is why mech's are not mirrored in BT lore.

EDIT: Why is this all an issue anyway? there is a mechlab, you can change weapons locations...unless it is on a hunchback, ect. Even then, other than for aesthetics, who cares? I haven't seen many drops in open servers of league matches where people ran in formation, that's the easiest way to get yourself killed.

Edited by Requital, 03 April 2012 - 09:09 AM.