39 replies to this topic

[Marowi]

I was doing some reading at sarna.net the other day, and I realized that there just don't seem to be that many WarShips in the BattleTech universe. Sure, there were the Succession Wars, and I get it that they blasted a lot of them--but you see both the Lyran Alliance/Federated Commonwealth (/Suns) cranking out gigantic Tharkad-class and Avalon-class ships by the 3050s.

Yet, at the same time, neither of these states has more WarShips than Clan Jade Falcon? In fact, only the Clans seem to have any naval assets at all--there are almost 270 canon Clan WarShips accounted for, but barely 100 from the Successor States? I don't get it. How do two economic powerhouses with 300-500 colonized planets and upwards of a trillion citizens fail to have a Navy? Or at least a navy as big as a power that for most of its history had 5 planets and had to share them. Someone with more knowledge of this universe than I please explain, otherwise, Clan insistence on single-combat on the ground looks pretty silly.

[Hayden]

During the succession wars (especially 1st and 2nd) there were huge naval losses as well as frequent targeting of military heavy industry (including orbital naval yards). Thus, by the 4th succession war (3029/30), Warships in the inner sphere have ceased to exist and the means to produce them are long since destroyed. In the intervening years rules of warfare were adjusted to account for the loss of warships, use of nuclear and biological weapons, and other realities of the modern battlefield.

Ultimately, faced with the total loss of warships and the widespread damage to their jumpship fleets the successor states agreed to view jumpships (which are generally unarmed anyway) as inviolate; while dropships and other combat assets are free game and can be attacked normally. Furthermore, the means to produce jumpships had not been totally lost, unlike with their warship cousins.

Inner Sphere construction of warships only resumed after the clan invasion, out of fear that the clans would begin to make widespread use of these assets. It should be noted that the vast majority of clan Warships were holdovers from the Star League era with refits. Several hundred warships left with Kerensky on the exile, and of these your 270-ish survived, due mostly to the fact that clan rules of engagement dictated that they generally be kept out of combat situations.

[Arctic Fox]

Just because one is more economically powerful than the other doesn't necessarily mean it must have a bigger force. The Successor States blasted their WarShip fleets to extinction with nuclear weapons in the First and Second Succession Wars. More importantly, the Successor States blasted their shipbuilding infrastructure to dust, and subsequently lost most knowledge of how to rebuild it. So they had no WarShip fleet until small scale WarShip production was starting in the Inner Sphere during the 3050s. Meanwhile, the Clans practice limited warfare and rarely use their WarShips, so they kept their hundreds-year old fleets while the Inner Sphere did not.

The major exceptions to the IS' WarShip problems are ComStar and the Free Worlds League. ComStar was neutral and had its fleet hidden away, so it kept a fairly sizable fleet. The Free Worlds League had the Word of Blake assist it in starting its WarShip program, as well as salvaging and refurbishing derelicts, which eventually allowed it to get the biggest fleet among the Successor States (while also assisting the Word of Blake in building up its own rather sizable fleet). All of those rival most individual Clan fleets by 3067.

As for Clanner insistance on ground combat. Well, being irrational is part of their character.

[Hawkeye 72]

Hayden and Arctic Fox are correct. The Inner Sphere destroyed its ability to produce warships rather early. Clans find warship warfare holding very little honor when capturing a planet (hence the backlash to the Smoke Jaguars leveling Turtle Bay). The clans still can produce their own warships however.

Edited by Hawkeye 72, 03 April 2012 - 12:25 PM.

[Marowi]

So, even though the Lyran Commonwealth is a major industrial power, it only squares off against the Clans with 0-8 (since the 8 canon LCAF vessels seem to be post-invasion productions) WarShips of its own against 57-combined from Clans Wolf, Jade Falcon and Steel Viper? I'm amazed the took so little territory.

My interpretation was that these were just the "canon" WarShips and that there were at least a few dozen or so in each Successor State's Navy that we just never heard about because this is MechWarrior. Otherwise, I just can't conceive of how states like the Capellan Confederation (for whom I can't get any WarShip data on--they might as well not have any) can survive against its neighbors. For example, the FWL has ~40 vessels in its fleet, and this seems like a sensible "average". Well, then again, I suppose you could say the Capellan Confederation didn't.

[Arctic Fox]

Marowi, on 03 April 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

So, even though the Lyran Commonwealth is a major industrial power, it only squares off against the Clans with 0-8 (since the 8 canon LCAF vessels seem to be post-invasion productions) WarShips of its own against 57-combined from Clans Wolf, Jade Falcon and Steel Viper? I'm amazed the took so little territory.

My interpretation was that these were just the "canon" WarShips and that there were at least a few dozen or so in each Successor State's Navy that we just never heard about because this is MechWarrior. Otherwise, I just can't conceive of how states like the Capellan Confederation (for whom I can't get any WarShip data on--they might as well not have any) can survive against its neighbors. For example, the FWL has ~40 vessels in its fleet, and this seems like a sensible "average". Well, then again, I suppose you could say the Capellan Confederation didn't.

The Clans (except for the Snow Ravens) don't use their WarShips very often. Much as they do completely illogical things like underbid forces in order to gain the right to attack. They don't use reasonable strategy and that's a very large part of why they lose.

Oh, and the Capellans have 8 active WarShips in 3067.

Edited by Arctic Fox, 03 April 2012 - 12:32 PM.

[Marowi]

Arctic Fox: They do. Do you know where I can find accurate naval data per era? Poking around on sarna.net hasn't been very helpful... its internal search engine seems somewhat-less-than-Boolean.

All: Thanks for the opinions. I think they largely make sense, though, assuming you're all right, it means that the Clan invasion basically "made" the Successor States "rediscover" how to build WarShips ... which they proceeded to do at a pace of a 'Ship or so a year. Did they steal info from the Clans, rediscover Star League tech (miraculously) contemporaneously with the invasion, or is there another explanation (for 300 years, they just weren't trying hard enough)?

[Thorn Hallis]

Marowi, on 03 April 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

So, even though the Lyran Commonwealth is a major industrial power, it only squares off against the Clans with 0-8 (since the 8 canon LCAF vessels seem to be post-invasion productions) WarShips of its own against 57-combined from Clans Wolf, Jade Falcon and Steel Viper? I'm amazed the took so little territory.

Thats because Warships are either not included into the bidding or are the first items that are bid away - especially after Clan Wolf announced to not use any Warships in their conquests after Turtle Bay.
Of course the Clans could have used that advantage to make planets surrender by threatining to bombard their cities (and the Falcons won a world this way during the 5th phase). But as the clans are warriors born they want to fight, and bombing a city isn't really considered a fight.

Marowi, on 03 April 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

My interpretation was that these were just the "canon" WarShips and that there were at least a few dozen or so in each Successor State's Navy that we just never heard about because this is MechWarrior. Otherwise, I just can't conceive of how states like the Capellan Confederation (for whom I can't get any WarShip data on--they might as well not have any) can survive against its neighbors. For example, the FWL has ~40 vessels in its fleet, and this seems like a sensible "average". Well, then again, I suppose you could say the Capellan Confederation didn't.

No. The only Warships in the Inner Sphere were in the hands of Comstar, and they had them mothballed in the Terran system. Comstar pressed them into active service after the battle of Tukayyid. Around the same time the Successor States started to jumpstart their Warship programs. Dunno when the FWL had 40 warships (probably during/after the Jihad?), but as of 3060 they had around 10 or so (including their mega-carriers, I guess the Ravens would like to have them). The Confedration created a destroyer-class Warship in conjunction with the Free World League and also a cruiser-class warship with the help of the Word of Blake.

[Marowi]

It may be an anachronistic list but it seems there are roughly 40 of them or so. It seems strange that the Successor States would commit their WarShips to the last, and not keep any in reserve--otherwise a convention against destroying them seems somewhat odd (if they don't exist?). The Draconis Combine also seems to have a large fleet of seemingly-domestically produced (based on the names) vessels. Were these pre- or post-invasion?

I'm not surprised that ComStar would have the only WarShips left in the Inner Sphere, but I can't imagine how they would have gotten their hands on them--and surely, at least they would have the knowledge to produce them. There must be some fantastic story behind this.

I'm less interested in that, though, than I am about how the Successor States rediscovered the means to rebuild their fleets. I'm sure information is hazy, but certainly at least during the Jihad/post-Jihad era, the Successor States had an opportunity to replenish their armadas?

[Arctic Fox]

Gah...can't...keep...up...information...

Marowi, on 03 April 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

Arctic Fox: They do. Do you know where I can find accurate naval data per era? Poking around on sarna.net hasn't been very helpful... its internal search engine seems somewhat-less-than-Boolean.

All: Thanks for the opinions. I think they largely make sense, though, assuming you're all right, it means that the Clan invasion basically "made" the Successor States "rediscover" how to build WarShips ... which they proceeded to do at a pace of a 'Ship or so a year. Did they steal info from the Clans, rediscover Star League tech (miraculously) contemporaneously with the invasion, or is there another explanation (for 300 years, they just weren't trying hard enough)?

There are WarShip listing in at least some of the original Field Manuals, not sure if all of them, which are relevant for their time frame. Strategic Operations has a WarShip count for every faction in 3067, and Field Manual: Updates has specifics about them for the same year. The Field Report series and Field Manual: 3085 has information on WarShips in 3079 and 3085, respectively, but I'm not sure if it's complete. Reunification War also has complete WarShip counts for every faction in 2575 and 2600.

The Successor States rediscovered a lot of Star League technology which was required to produce WarShips before the invasion, as with a lot of other technologies. The Fox class was designed in 3050, for example, but its construction was delayed because it needed engine components which only ComStar could produce.

Thorn Hallis, on 03 April 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

No. The only Warships in the Inner Sphere were in the hands of Comstar, and they had them mothballed in the Terran system. Comstar pressed them into active service after the battle of Tukayyid. Around the same time the Successor States started to jumpstart their Warship programs. Dunno when the FWL had 40 warships (probably during/after the Jihad?), but as of 3060 they had around 10 or so (including their mega-carriers, I guess the Ravens would like to have them). The Confedration created a destroyer-class Warship in conjunction with the Free World League and also a cruiser-class warship with the help of the Word of Blake.

ComStar had most of its fleet in Luyten 68-28 and Ross 248, uncharted systems in the vicinity of Terra. There were only a few WarShips in Terra itself in order to defend the system. The Free Worlds League has 38 active WarShips in 3067, as per Strategic Operations. It would be a bit hard for them to have one after the Jihad since the Free Worlds League disintegrates during it.

Marowi, on 03 April 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

It may be an anachronistic list but it seems there are roughly 40 of them or so. It seems strange that the Successor States would commit their WarShips to the last, and not keep any in reserve--otherwise a convention against destroying them seems somewhat odd (if they don't exist?). The Draconis Combine also seems to have a large fleet of seemingly-domestically produced (based on the names) vessels. Were these pre- or post-invasion?

I'm not surprised that ComStar would have the only WarShips left in the Inner Sphere, but I can't imagine how they would have gotten their hands on them--and surely, at least they would have the knowledge to produce them. There must be some fantastic story behind this.

I'm less interested in that, though, than I am about how the Successor States rediscovered the means to rebuild their fleets. I'm sure information is hazy, but certainly at least during the Jihad/post-Jihad era, the Successor States had an opportunity to replenish their armadas?

The Combine fleet listed there was created after the invasion.

WarShips after the Jihad are reducing in number again, though not nearly as badly as during the early Succession Wars. One reason is the major infrastructure damage (again) inflicted on the various factions. The other reason is that new technology allowed the introduction of Pocket WarShips, essentially DropShips with Sub-Capital weapons and Capital missiles, that can fulfill many of the roles of smaller WarShips.

Edited by Arctic Fox, 03 April 2012 - 01:06 PM.

[guardiandashi]

the general summary that the warships went extinct due to a variety of reasons is accurate

until the clans invaded warship were extinct and no one cared that much, in fact there was a story about the loss of the last kuritan and lyran warships, basically the kurita forces were making a major attack with light warship support, and the lyrans sent their last battleship to intercept the fleet, the battleship completely destroyed the attacking fleet, .... and then misjumped on the way back to its base

[Thorn Hallis]

The list included pre- and post-invasion Warships, though it must be noted that the pre-invasion Warships were all destroyed during the Succession Wars. You can easily find out which they were when you compare the Warship-classes. All of them that are not among the Clan-Warships are newly built designs, like the Impavido, Thera or Mjolnir classes for example. The lone picture of the capellean warship is a Feng Huang-class cruiser.

The convention is ment to prevent the destruction of Jumpships, these are unarmed ships.

Comstar got their hands on allready mothballed ships when they took over the Terran system. Of course they had the knowledge to produce them, but they never saw any need (until the clans came), though they built the Faslane-class yard ships (mobile repair facilities) between 2882 and 2949. Comstar helped the FedCom and the Combine to start production of their Warships.

[Marowi]

All this information is fantastic, thank you. Now, if only my local library carried Strategic Operations.

Of course, the very last WarShip would misjump. I'm perfectly comfortable with that outcome.

Edited by Marowi, 03 April 2012 - 01:37 PM.

[Aedris Nova]

Out of the Clans, only Clan Snow Raven has a real interest in producing interest, however, due to their honor, their warships are meant for ship to ship combat instead of ship to ground combat. Normally, Inner sphere units use jumpships and not warships

[Thorn Hallis]

Maybe the story of the misjumped warship will be written down in the future. Like the story of the SLS Manassas, that jumped 300 years in time, straight from the Exodus right into the clan invasion.

[Arctic Fox]

Marowi, on 03 April 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

All this information is fantastic, thank you. Now, if only my local library carried Strategic Operations.

Check out this thread on the BattleTech forums as well, it should have what you want.

EDIT: Damn this editing!

Marowi, on 03 April 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

Of course, the very last WarShip would misjump. I'm perfectly comfortable with that outcome.

*cough* It's not quite entirely certain that it did misjump... *cough*

Edited by Arctic Fox, 03 April 2012 - 01:46 PM.

[GrimFist]

There is an entire pub on warships. I have it in a box. They had an updated supplement for the stuff the clans updated. In the end warships were just part of the backstory, part of the rich envivonment. Seocnd, when Kerensky pulled out, he took all of the top of the line warships with him, at least 80 percent. The rest helped someody blow something up and in turn were blown up, lost, hidden away.

I have all the technical pub readouts (some of them are 20 plus years old)

Most cities use to have an HPG station. Now a planet is lucky to have one.

Most of the space based manufacturuing was destroyed in the wars. Space docks, space stations, places that trained crews, anything military, anything with military applications was a target. Everybody had some ships. Some had more, pirates had ships. Everybody raided or blew up opposing forces infrastrucutre. Warships pounded sites with orbital bombardment. Given a few decades of warfare, most ships and anything that could build them were slagged. Those facilites left were guarded with whatever they had left.

A few things I've read talked about the SLDF fleet consisting of 500 major ships. I think that would mean things like corvettes and frigates dont count. Don't even think about dropships or aerospace fighters. I'm not even sure jump ships work into this.

The war to defeat the Ameris (sp) cost Kerensky over 40 major ships. However, consider this. 486 divisions, 113 left with him. That still means 28 1/4 divisions stayed behind. You have to figure some of them were ships.

A few documented accounts of lost or derilict ships per the BT tech pubs. Those allow folks who pursue the larger picture of role playing in BT access to some fun things ideas that still fit into the BT lore.

Grim

[GrimFist]

I'll say this, there are plenty of contraditions when it comes to ship numbers and who had what base don what pub or book you read.

The last warship of the DCMS does not make sense becasue they had a pre Kerensky ship. Soemthing over 300 year old that was lost during the Clan Invasion. That might have been the oldest servving ship, I think it was a heavy cruiser but I forget.

Again, ships were some of the background noise as it was all about mechs.

Once the clan invasions started I was out of playing BT TT, life does things like that. I dont have all those tech pubs.

Grim

[Stahlseele]

I think Herb Beas went on a killing spree on Warships some months back too . .
But that is JIIHAAD! Time if i remember correctly . .

[Oppi]

Marowi, on 03 April 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

All: Thanks for the opinions. I think they largely make sense, though, assuming you're all right, it means that the Clan invasion basically "made" the Successor States "rediscover" how to build WarShips ...

That's basically it. The tech was gone, nobody had any significant numbers of warships left (there were a handful of ships gathering dust at hidden ComStar shipyards like the Cameron class cruiser "CSS Invisible Truth" ), so most states didn't put any effort in it, because warships were only good to fight other warships, or to bomb planets back into stone age, which all the successor states agreed upon not to do anymore.

Quote

which they proceeded to do at a pace of a 'Ship or so a year. Did they steal info from the Clans, rediscover Star League tech (miraculously) contemporaneously with the invasion, or is there another explanation (for 300 years, they just weren't trying hard enough)?

I think the Helm Memory Core discovered by the Grey Death Legion must have been the major step forward. The FedComs "Fox" class was designed around 3051, this would be a bit early if they had just started to try when they first sighted Clan warships.

Quote

otherwise a convention against destroying them seems somewhat odd (if they don't exist?).

Now you're mixing up warships and jumpships. The former went extinct, the latter are basically unarmed carriers needed to perform FTL travel. Everybody agreed not to shoot them, because they basically didn't have the knowledge or facilities to build many new ships.

Edited by Oppi, 03 April 2012 - 02:15 PM.