25 replies to this topic

[Merix]

I recently went from having 20 Single heat sinks to 30 single heat sinks in my K2, and the difference is virtually negligible, no where close to the difference between 10 and 20. There seems to be some major diminishing returns once you get over 20 heat sinks.

[Grayzzur]

Let's look at the math. Going from 10 to 20 is 100% more heat sinks... I bet they are twice as effective! Going from 20 to 30 is 50% more heatsinks... I bet now you only get a 50% improvement there.

[Merix]

Grayzzur, on 30 October 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

Let's look at the math. Going from 10 to 20 is 100% more heat sinks... I bet they are twice as effective! Going from 20 to 30 is 50% more heatsinks... I bet now you only get a 50% improvement there.

Grayzzur, on 30 October 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

Let's look at the math. Going from 10 to 20 is 100% more heat sinks... I bet they are twice as effective! Going from 20 to 30 is 50% more heatsinks... I bet now you only get a 50% improvement there.

The difference between 20 and 30 is almost negligable. Not even close to 50%

[dF0X]

This is true. As I understand it, there is a diminishing return mechanic being applied to heat dissipation. There is also some question as to whether or not double heatsinks are working as intended. I, for one, hope they restore the double heatsink functionality to that of TT, and that they give the diminishing returns a good, hard look as well.

Current heat rules really punish large beam weapons.

[Ockow]

Desrtfox, on 30 October 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

This is true. As I understand it, there is a diminishing return mechanic being applied to heat dissipation. There is also some question as to whether or not double heatsinks are working as intended. I, for one, hope they restore the double heatsink functionality to that of TT, and that they give the diminishing returns a good, hard look as well.

Current heat rules really punish large beam weapons.

Double heat sinks are bug right now. All the DHS in the engine are acting as single heat sinks, only the HS out side of the engine are working as DHS

[Merix]

Desrtfox, on 30 October 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

This is true. As I understand it, there is a diminishing return mechanic being applied to heat dissipation. There is also some question as to whether or not double heatsinks are working as intended. I, for one, hope they restore the double heatsink functionality to that of TT, and that they give the diminishing returns a good, hard look as well.

Current heat rules really punish large beam weapons.

My build is 4 large lasers on a K2, I was running 2l and 2mp with with 24 heat sinks, but when I increase it to 4l and add 6 more heatsinks then only adding 4 more heat per shot with 6 extra heatsinks, my heat dispensation is nowhere close to being able to keep up.

[Lyoto Machida]

Desrtfox, on 30 October 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

This is true. As I understand it, there is a diminishing return mechanic being applied to heat dissipation. There is also some question as to whether or not double heatsinks are working as intended. I, for one, hope they restore the double heatsink functionality to that of TT, and that they give the diminishing returns a good, hard look as well.

Current heat rules really punish large beam weapons.

That diminishing rule BS is garbage...I'd like to hear a good reason for implementing that. Looks like they don't want laser boats.

[Bloody Moon]

Actually in the Closed Beta forum this issue was proved by some guys with testing, i don't remember the exact numbers but there is some diminishing return when using large number of heatsinks.

[dF0X]

Ockow' tmstamp='1351625827 said:

Double heat sinks are bug right now. All the DHS in the engine are acting as single heat sinks, only the HS out side of the engine are working as DHS

You are right about how they currently work. I haven't seen them confirm that this behavior is not intended. Can you link to your source for this being a bug, and not intended?

[gregsolidus]

It has been proven that heat sinks work on diminishing returns and we're not sure if that's going to change.As of now having more than 20 heat sinks is a waste of space.

[Kunae]

Desrtfox, on 30 October 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

You are right about how they currently work. I haven't seen them confirm that this behavior is not intended. Can you link to your source for this being a bug, and not intended?

No, because the beta forums are currently inaccessible.

[Signal27]

Don't quote me on this, because I only started playing this game yesterday, but I was curious as to how MWO handles heat mechanics compared to the table-top. I read somewhere that heat sinks in MWO don't do anything to prevent heat build-up in the first place. The original table-top mechanics had it so that if you fired a ER-PPC that generated 15 heat, and you had 10 single heat sinks, you'd gain 5 heat. In MWO, you gain the full 15 heat regardless of how many heat sinks you have. The way MWO handles heat sinks is HOW FAST you cool down AFTER you fire.

I think. If I'm wrong, somebody please correct me and let me know how it actually works.

[Itka]

In TT you count entire 10 second rounds, that's why the PPC only added 5.

It actually added 15, but then you lost 10 over 10 seconds.

In MWO it works the same, except that fire:ing rate is about 3 times higher but heat dissipation is the same.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Ok, signal...

First thing to remember is that a "Turn" in Classic Battletech encompasses 10 seconds.

This rule moves over into MWO. at the rate of 1 heatsink, dissipates 1 heat in 10 seconds.

1-1-10

Thus let's look at a large laser...

A large laser builds 8 heat.

with 10 heatsinks, that heat dissipates in just under one second.

The problem is that you can fire your weaponry around 2-4 times in that 10 second span in MWO.

"Effectively" you are generating triple the heat you normally would in "Battletech"

In a way, I am somewhat ok with this, as it makes choosing when to fire much more important, however I do see the argument against it, in that it's not true to the source material. And causes some serious heat issues in regards to larger weaponry.

[Hollister]

Heat sinks dissipate .1 heat every second. The problem with them is the more you have the less total % effect they actually have. like someone stated before going from 10 to 20 is a 100% increase and 20 to 30 is a 50% increase. heat sinks only loose effectiveness the higher your heat is. I one mech build I had i could dissipate heat in the caldarra on caustic up to a specific heat %. when i met or went over that percentage my heat would actually increase with me doing nothing.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Frankly I am surprised you could notice the differnce, here is the heat buildup on these.
I think what we can take away from this is that "only" generating 4 more heat in weapons and 6 heat sinks actually = -4 total heat efficiency because you fire 2.5 times per heat cycle (heat cycle is 10 seconds). The key to remember is you cool down your heat sinks every 10 seconds (so with 30 your heat drops 3 per second), but you weapons fire more than once per 10 seconds. Try 3 Lg lasers (that is a build I have used for a long time), or keep the 4 lasers but cycle them, or just use 3 and save the 4th for an alpha strike against a shutdown/damaged mech.

2x LG laser, 2x Md Pulse
24 heat sinks (Basically you would shut down on the 3rd Lg laser volley, or 7 seconds of continuous fire)

Sec_______Δ_______Heat___________%
0________24_______24.0_________55%
1_________________21.6_________49%
2_________________19.2_________44%
3_________________16.8_________38%
4________24_______38.4_________87%
5_________________36.0_________82%
6_________________33.6_________76%
7________10_______41.2_________94%
8________14_______52.8________120%
9_________________50.4________115%
10________________48.0________109%
11_______10_______55.6________126%
12________________53.2________121%
13_______14_______64.8________147%
14________________62.4________142%
15_______10_______70.0________159%
16________________67.6________154%
17_______14_______79.2________180%
18________________76.8________175%
19_______10_______84.4________192%
20________________82.0________186%
21_______14_______93.6________213%
22_______10______101.2________230%
23________________98.8________225%
24________________96.4________219%
25_______14______108.0________245%
26_______10______115.6________263%
27_______________113.2________257%
28_______________110.8________252%
29_______________108.4________246%
30_______24______130.0________295%


4x Lg Laser
30 Heat sinks (here you shut down on the 3rd volley, at 8 seconds)

Sec_______Δ_______Heat__________%
0________28_______28.0________56%
1_________________25.0________50%
2_________________22.0________44%
3_________________19.0________38%
4________28_______44.0________88%
5_________________41.0________82%
6_________________38.0________76%
7_________________35.0________70%
8________28_______60.0_______120%
9_________________57.0_______114%
10________________54.0_______108%
11________________51.0_______102%
12________________48.0________96%
13_______28_______73.0_______146%
14________________70.0_______140%
15________________67.0_______134%
16________________64.0_______128%
17_______28_______89.0_______178%
18________________86.0_______172%
19________________83.0_______166%
20________________80.0_______160%
21_______28______105.0_______210%
22_______________102.0_______204%
23________________99.0_______198%
24________________96.0_______192%
25_______28______121.0_______242%
26_______________118.0_______236%
27_______________115.0_______230%
28_______________112.0_______224%
29_______________109.0_______218%
30_______28______134.0_______268%

Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 30 October 2012 - 12:03 PM.

[CptPlanet]

I was one of the group working on the heat sink problem--as near as we can tell, the 'diminishing returns' system appears to ONLY show up in the mech bay heat efficiency chart--i.e. ingame, this didn't show up, and if you doubled the heatsinks, you doubled your cooling rate.


That being said, most of our trials capped at 20 heatsinks. Once the group and I actually have money and engines again (which may be a bit), I'm going to suggest that we test the range of 20+ heatsinks to make sure they didn't implement a different model at 20 heatsinks or above. I'll update our fantabulous google spreadsheet (https://docs.google....dqZDd1YkE#gid=5) and make a forum post once we have conclusive data.

Don't hold your breath though, I know for a number of us, this is a bad week, what with hurricanes, flooding and work.

[Kyrie]

Bloody Moon, on 30 October 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

Actually in the Closed Beta forum this issue was proved by some guys with testing, i don't remember the exact numbers but there is some diminishing return when using large number of heatsinks.

If I am not mistaken they were referring to the ":Heat Efficiency" measurement in the mechlab as opposed to actual HS performance in game.

[Jacmac]

Signal27, on 30 October 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

The original table-top mechanics had it so that if you fired a ER-PPC that generated 15 heat, and you had 10 single heat sinks, you'd gain 5 heat. In MWO, you gain the full 15 heat regardless of how many heat sinks you have. The way MWO handles heat sinks is HOW FAST you cool down AFTER you fire.

I think. If I'm wrong, somebody please correct me and let me know how it actually works.

I think you are correct, in addition, the firing time of the weapon affects the heat dissipation because the dissipation begins when the weapon has completed the firing cycle. So if true, then a 3 heat pulse laser would begin heat dissipation sooner than a 3 heat standard laser. I believe I read this in a Q&A or Developer note somewhere, but I don't remember where it was

[Mar Helmer]

As CptPlanet outlined above, we verified that between 10 and 20 single heat sinks operate linearly in game as of the most recent patch. It is only the MechLab's heat efficiency display that operates on diminishing returns. We have no comments on double heat sinks or heat sink counts above 20. If and when we do more testing, we will publish further results.