98 replies to this topic

[Graufalk]

Sure, but WoT is already an established game. They can get away with it.

What motivates new players to keep playing MWO? It's not necessarily easier to play than other F2P games, the grind is more or less the same, and it's still a bit anemic in the content department. So knowing this, you're then to tell this new player that he has to play for about 10 hours just to access one of the bigger parts of the game (mech customization)?

One idea I like is giving every new player a "bonus" of ~500k after their first win, or maybe 1 million after the 3rd win. It's a nice incentive to play well and reduces the initial "grind" significantly.

[Igorius]

I'm seriously finding myself in the crowd of not having any sympathy for those who don't like the trial mechs. Learn the heat curve, steady your aim, and become aware of your surroundings. I had a match last night, in a trial Centurion I might add, in which I had three kills, six assists, and 500+ damage, on Caustic Valley. I'm not saying this to brag, because I got my butt handed to me the next match. My point, then? Patience. This game has a learning curve, but once you understand the mechanics it's very possible to be successful, even in the "awful" trial mechs.

[BlackJackRaider]

Kirkland Langue, on 31 October 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

Well, during CB - I argued that the Trial Mechs should be ENJOYABLE. They not only should "not be bad", but should actually be excellent builds.

1. This would lead players to actually PLAY the new mechs, instead of suicide rushing just to gain the C-Bills.
2. This would lead new players to actually ENJOY their first 20 games, instead of just looking back and realize that they did nothing more than suicide rush to grind C-Bills.
3. This would actually ENCOURAGE people to buy real mechs because regardless how good a fit it was, players would still want to tinker with it and the trial mechs don't give xp so you could never maximize its potential without getting the skills.

Obv my sentiments fell on deaf, marketing, ears.

I agree with all three points here, but point 2 is why this trial mech system for new F2P players is a terribly bad economic decision by PGI. I'm going to compare this to the only other f2p game i've ever spent money on: World of Tanks. Instead of suicide rushing, I was busy learning game mechanics and enjoying myself. The economic curve is very easy on new players, and ramps up in difficulty later (I do realize that the tier system in WOT is completely different from the way mm and the mechlab work in MWO). This encourages new players rather than ******* them off and frustrating them into leaving. Quite frankly, PGI is making the money grab too soon. People who are new ARENT going to pay to speed up a grind to a gaming experience they have no idea if they like or not. By forcing them to play in a limited number of frankly crappy variants (almost all stocks have major heat issues, for instance), this structure causes newcomers to decide they don't like the game before they ever get the chance to experience one of the most important facets-mech customization.

I actually like the idea of having new players complete training exercises before they earn a set amount of cbills to buy a cheap first mech. To me, this seems to allow players to decide they like the full game (trial variants really aren't the actual game experience) and is less likely to simply drive them away.

[elsie]

If I recall correctly from my 2 weeks of trial mechs before I got the founder's pack, the mechs you get are the same as the mechs you would normally buy. Just like the stock founder's mechs are the same, just with a different skin. So if they gave you a regular mech instead, they'd also have to give you enough cbills for repair and refit otherwise you'd be running a damaged and ammoless mech in games because you couldn't afford to take care of it from your losses. If you are so set on getting a non-trial mech 'right now', then just spend $15 or whatever and get the MC for one.

I do agree that the grind is a bit much right now. What I would like to see is that they keep the trial mechs as they are right now with the following payouts:

Win/Loss cbills remain the same
+10% cbills for spotting, damage, capture/assists, kills/assists

This will encourage people to play and contribute rather than suicide out in one form or another so they can jump into another mission. I'd even go so far as to disable the ability to join another mission until the current one completes on the basis that the pilot can't be in two places at the same time - supposedly you're still in the previous mech until it's over and you get pulled from the field even though you've 'left'.

elsie

[soxy]

Trial mechs are not that bad, but after some time it gets boring the grind factor.

But more than that, what is more annoying is the matchmaking.

A lot of the times we got one team whit 80% whit founder players.
And all the opponent team only whit normal players, and that means 70% or more trial mechs....

[AtomicFrawg]

soxy, on 01 November 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

Trial mechs are not that bad, but after some time it gets boring the grind factor.

But more than that, what is more annoying is the matchmaking.

A lot of the times we got one team whit 80% whit founder players.
And all the opponent team only whit normal players, and that means 70% or more trial mechs....

I love this type of post.

If it is boring grinding in a trial mech, it will be boring grinding in a bought mech. This game wont be for you.

You will not magically start making tons of c-bills. You will find its opposite. You will now have to pay for the ammo and repair. You will now have to grind c-bill to customize your stock mech, which BTW is equal to a trial mech.

[Flapdrol]

My suggestion, instead of a 20% lower income give them 20% extra, that'll reduce the grind and since the trial mechs pretty much suck I say they deserve an income boost.

With the current matchmaking the only usable trailmech is the Centurion, wost case the enemy gets a hunchback, better than trial raven vs jenner, overheating dragon vs gausscat/lrm boat or awesome vs atlas.

[AtomicFrawg]

Flapdrol, on 01 November 2012 - 03:50 AM, said:

My suggestion, instead of a 20% lower income give them 20% extra, that'll reduce the grind and since the trial mechs pretty much suck I say they deserve an income boost.

With the current matchmaking the only usable trailmech is the Centurion, wost case the enemy gets a hunchback, better than trial raven vs jenner, overheating dragon vs gausscat/lrm boat or awesome vs atlas.

Problem with that is people will abuse the income. The lack of a repair bill and lack of needing to buy ammo makes it already a c-bill profit machine. (hint: you make money win or lose) Again how much you make is how you pilot it.

Now I do agree with one guy said a few post up about maybe allowing them extra c-bill for assisted kills and spotting. But maybe half of what you would get on a normal mech.

No matter what the solution is, it will need to force a choice on the player. 1) stick out the grind on the free route 2) pay a few dollars for the fast route. 3) or a little of both. If not then there would be no reason to move to a different mech, let along spend money.

FYI 7 dollars will buy you a jenner and MC left over for a premium account.

Think to yourself for a min on if you would work for free.... The Devs need to eat too.

[Elder Thorn]

just to throw in my opinions on 2 of the topics of this thread:

1. Founders ARE allowed to have an opinion on Trials, be it poisitive or negative. You know why? A huge pile of the money that was used to develop them comes from OUR pockets.

2. I think, trial mechs suck.
Question is how to make it better.
Why not give every trial mech 2 loadouts, that people can switch between? And make those loadouts usefull.
On a sidenote: I played the current Trial Raven for a few matches and it wasn't THAT bad. Only problem is that your match is over, when a jenner or commando notices you and noone else notices this Jenner or Commando.
But the Raven itself was very mach able to sneak behind enemy lines and take out those LRM spamming camperdolls.

[Sloddor]

Drunetovich, on 30 October 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Remove this boring trial mech drag, i got insanely bored on my 10th match with them, i want to go to mech lab already and tinker with my own configurations!

Yeah, let them start with the cheapest commando an remove trials mechs, so they cant even try other mechs without paying an *** full of c-bills. And then we will run into massive Commando Battles

Edited by Sloddor, 01 November 2012 - 05:22 AM.

[AtomicFrawg]

Sloddor, on 01 November 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

Yeah, let them start with the cheapest commando an remove trials mechs, so they cant even try other mechs without paying an *** full of c-bills. And then we will run into massive Commando Battles

LOL....... We will then have packs of Commando's running around leg humping heavies and assaults. Scary thought.

[Esarai]

StriplingWarrior, on 31 October 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:

I know I have a founder tag and that means "I have no idea what we go through." However, over the course of 30 matches, I have,
1 Fully configured my Jenner so it is how I want it.-This includes double heatsinks and a 5M C-bill engine
2 Still tweaking my Atlas but it has been modified rather heavily

I know if I run my founders stuff with the premium account I get approx 70% more C-bills per match, my point is that between just the engine for the Jenny and the doubles, that is 6.5M Cbills. Take the bonus off and that would be just about 4M Cbills in that time. More than enough to buy any light and almost any, if not any medium mech. I have not spent any MC at all. No extra mech slots. No Hero mechs. Nothing. Im not an amazing mechwarrior, as you can see. I don't do premade, although running with a single lancemate does not count as premade IMO. Which I was doing last night for about 15 rounds.

If you managed to purchase the Atlas and Jenner with the proceeds of 30 games, you had an income of 10 million cb. I'm going to assume that you mean you already owned those mechs, and simply purchased upgrades. Well, 4.5 million for 30 matches works out to be about 150k cb per match, assuming all losses. Newplayers, under the same scenario, only make 60k cb. You're earning approximately 250% more than they do if your numbers are correct, without the founders' bonus.

Personally, I'm all for having a grind as a means to incentivize people to play, but what I am against is the fact that the opening grind doesn't demonstrate the game well enough to hook new players. It effectively locks newplayers out of most of the game until they've played 40-60 matches, which is more than enough time for them to get bored and never come back.

Honestly, I think the only real solution is to just outright give a newplayer a starting mech that they can customize, and say 1.5M cb to tinker with it. Otherwise what's the point? 'Here, let me spend 15 hours of my life waiting for this game to get good.' For a lot of people with really busy schedules, there are a very large number of alternative activities that would be much more rewarding. PGI is limiting their customer base with the current system. I'm not advocating this because I want the game to be cheaper time-wise (though that would be very nice), I'm advocating it because I'd hate for this game to fail. It needs to open itself to players outside the hard-core gamers and stalwart BT fans, and so the object of the trials should be to hook players and convince them it's worth their while and their money. Right now it does neither since the full scope of the game is hidden from view for an unacceptably large period of time.

[Flapdrol]

AtomicFrawg, on 01 November 2012 - 05:07 AM, said:

Problem with that is people will abuse the income. The lack of a repair bill and lack of needing to buy ammo makes it already a c-bill profit machine. (hint: you make money win or lose) Again how much you make is how you pilot it.

people already abuse it, now they just have to abuse less to get the same, I dont see the problem.

[AtomicFrawg]

Flapdrol, on 01 November 2012 - 05:43 AM, said:

people already abuse it, now they just have to abuse less to get the same, I dont see the problem.

Soooo you are wanting them to make the abuse of the lack of repairs bills even more profitable? Yeah I don't see that happening.

[ApheX]

I personally think the trial mechs are fine. Yes, i'm a founder and yes, I have my own Mech, but the Awesome trial Mech is really good to start off with. As long as you manage the heat and setup the weapon groups efficiently, you can do alot of damage. I used this mech when the game went to open Beta, just so i could get th cash to start modding my Catapult C1. I thought "Oh, well this'll suck. The mech runs as hot as hell, I'll be able to fire my lasers, what , at least 4-5 times before i overheat and blow myself up" But honestly, I really get on with it now. Most of the time, i'll switch back to it for fun.

Trial mechs are what they are, Trial Mechs! There not suppose to be amasing, they are there to give you an idea of what is availible to pilot and help you make up your mind when buying your own Mech. I agree that there should be some form of XP going on while using them, but to say there Bad just based on people's "poor piloting skiils" or "We deserve more" (I know no one has said they deserve more directly, but lets face it, thats what people are thinking) is ridiculous.

[AtomicFrawg]

I will toss in my idea for a solution.

Leave the trial mech as they are.
No customization. (Incentive to move on)
Give the the exp and c-bill earned with a normal mech (Kill assist, spotting cedits, ect) (Provides the Ability to move on)
When you buy your first mech, it then locks out the trial mechs. (Takes away the abuse of the lack of repair and resupply bills)

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Here r my 2 c-bills.
I think idea of trial mechs is good but they should have at least 3 configs each like in shop.Like you can pick Awesome and there should be like 3 canon canon config 8Q 8T 8M and not just like 1.
About XP.I am not for XP but in normal games you can take 10% GXP.In trials it should be like 1-3%.
And i am not posting this only bcuz of c-bills grinders buz bcuz of me too.I would like to try some mechs like awesome-8Q or in future Longbow,Trebuchet,Baboon etc b4 ill buy them.You know its not good to buy mech for 20mils and decide that i dont like it .
Trial mechs rotation should be faster too.Let say 1 week or so.
Hope it helps.

Edited by JudgeDeathCZ, 01 November 2012 - 06:20 AM.

[Wolfs Fang]

Hey I'm not a founder and I think the trial mechs are a good thing.. with the exception of the lack of earning GXP.. I can understand not earning mech XP because you don't own the hardware.. the hiring body does.. but you should still earn your GXP. That is a long grind to get the initial investment for your 1st mech and you should learn quite a bit while you are doing it...

As to the complaint about 4 maps 9 mechs and no physics... This monster JUST got out of closed Beta... give them a little time to get all the kinks worked out and get additional content added... This Assault mode we are playing isn't really going to be the primary mode of play for the game.. Its primary function is to get players used to the combat systems and the devs the data they need to tune the content and bring out new modes... Role warfare is coming... Advanced Capture games are coming bigger maps are coming... MANY bright and beautiful things are COMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited by Wolfs Fang, 01 November 2012 - 06:25 AM.

[Death Knell]

You could add a 'first win of the day' thing. Have it be a sizable sum that has people wanting to play at least a little bit each day, so that even casual players can accumulate enough to earn themselves a mech in time.

[TroglodyteJB]

Ha. I literally came to this site to discuss exactly this topic and figure out if there was an option other than grinding out C-Bills to get access to a legitimate chassis. Guess not.

I've only played an hour (I love BattleTech and somehow I missed this game until now!), but it's already more than enough to reveal the gaping flaws with the Trial Mech system.

First, customization. MechWarrior, at it's best, is as much about tinkering with your mech to shave a ton here, to upgrade to a pulse laser there, to upgrade your heat sinks everywhere-- as it is about playing the game. By my math, it's going to take me 3-5 hours of gameplay to unlock a single chassis and gain the ability to start messing with it. Aside from being un-fun for MW and BT veterans, it's a catastrophically stupid design decision for the new players that they MUST entice to be successful. The fundamental premise of F2P games is that playing them helps you to unlock new toys. Well-designed F2P efforts offer small trinkets on the way to big purchases; not in MWO. Locking customization and half the progression behind a several-hour tutorial (against players in real Mechs) is really, really, really stupid from a business perspective and fairly un-fun even for someone who wants to commit to the game like me.

The second issue is more ambiguous: power. The trial mechs are not particularly specialized, nor do they appear to be very good. In particular (of the weight classes I've played, Light/Medium/Heavy), the Raven Trial is comically inferior in a scouting role to the Jenner, and it's not so much faster than the Centurion Trial that it justifies the lighter armor and loadout. I get that giving new players a jump-jet beast with a top speed around 130KPH is probably not a great idea, but it comes back to how much time you have to invest to get to the point where you can make that decision. It's too much time spent in mechs that are at best generalists and at worst empirically inferior to purchased chassis.

So how do we fix it? One thing I like is the effort to hew to canon in terms of C-Bill cost, and I emphatically don't want new chassis to be cheap to acquire once you have your first real mech. I have a few suggestions:

• Trial Mech Upgrade. Allow players to upgrade Trial Mechs to full-blooded mechs for a significantly lower cost than the purchase price of a new variant. This could be an option for each Trial Mech or a one-time option.
  
• Starting C-Bills. While C-Bills are the currency of the game and giving them away seems bad, they're literally useless until you amass enough of them to buy a real chassis. Giving new players starting C-Bills equal to half to two-thirds of the price of a basic mech would reduce the un-fun trial time without breaking the economy once they're in a real mech.
  
• C-Bill bonuses to new players. Give a large C-Bill bounty for first Target Assist, First Kill, First Capture, First Win, etc. Waive repair and rearm costs on trial mechs (those are bogus anyway; if I can't choose the components I damn well shouldn't be paying for them).
  
• First-Mech discount. Make the first real mech purchase cheaper than subsequent purchases.

I like the game a lot, but I can't in good conscience recommend a Mechwarrior game that hides customization behind this many hours of gameplay. Whether or not I grind through it, there's a lot of people who won't. For the good of both the gameplay and the business, the Trial Mech grind period needs some kind of resolution.