593 replies to this topic

[Damocles]

IF ammo reloads were available (which I do not support entirely)

#1 Determined by MRBC rating (for Mercs) or House Rank in game (as in availability to call for it for all units on map).
#2 Do not let this snowball into allowing armor regeneration.

[Dragorath]

Ralleigh, on 21 April 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

damaged armor pannels in the way: You've probably got an unserviceable mech if you can't reload a weapon without stripping away burning metal.

weapons being too hot: That's when you'd change the barrel in real life. We wouldn't dump water on it though, that would cause it to explode. BUT if the weapon is still operable you can reload it. Heat can get to such a point that timing and headspace (these are things that have to be adjusted on the weapon for it to fire properly) can be off, or the sear is worn down too far and you get a run-away gun, or the barrel needs to be thrown away entirely. You might also have an issue with rounds cooking off, but that would involve a single round going off when you don't pull the trigger, and you charging the weapon back to load the next round in the chamber (but you'd want to wait for it to cool down or ready to fire because the new round would just cook off too). But in all of that, you'd still be able to reload. The weapon would simply be in-operable or unsafe before it couldn't be reloaded. If the weapon still works at all, reload it and keep fighting.

Lasers and other weapons making it too hot to get inside the mech: This is a case of "reality is unrealistic". Weapons and engines tend to sieze up before they become so hot that the entire mech can't even have people in and around it. I always assumed that the mechs heat reffered to water/coolant temprature, and that when you got it too hot the coolant would boil away and your reactor wouldn't be able to cool off and go into meltdown. I know in the books the pilot get's cooked alive in the cockpit just because they couldn't ease off the trigger, but the heat wouldn't transfer through air that efficiently, and the weapon would stop functioning and need to be replaced entirely before it heated up the skeleton that much. While we're on the subject of battletech querks, why do mechs have engines if they're nuclear powered? Shouldn't they have motors instead? Why carry around fuel for an engine if you already have a nuclear reactor?

You DEFINATELY wouldn't have to shut down the mech just to reload, but you wouldn't be able to move either. Standard Operating Procedures for most militaries in the world say that a tactical vehicle shouldn't move while being serviced by personel on the outside though. It's very dangerous to the personael operating it. On the other hand, the whole shutting down thing is also not as Simulationist as people would believe. A nuclear reactor has control rods... but none of the other systems would because they aren't radioactive and control rods would have no effect. Even if you inserted the control rods into the core and "shut down" the reactor, the water/coolant that is used on any other system would actually need power to cool the other systems down. The water pump and the cooling fan would have to keep going and you'd still have electrical power. This means that the mech would need batteries for the shut down sequence to actually work, and that would mean that, if it's just like games and the battletech novels, you're actually shutting down your sensor package and com systems down for no reason. Anyways, the whole shutdown sequence and heat management system would need to change a LOT for it to be modelled in the game realistically. And if you DID change it to be more "simulationist" it would actually be more favorable to reloading.

Taking vehicles out of the field to ressupply is a big tactical decision, and is a serious risk. Looking at the other posts in the thread, this actually opens up more tactical considerations and role based warfare. The "scout" mechs really shine here, as they can form wolf packs and pick off lone unsupported mechs trying to get to the rear to reload. Reloading only contributes to the "realism" or "simulationist" feel of the game, and is very useful for introducing complexity when the developers want to make the game more about tactical decisions instead of just lazerboats circle-strafing each other.

I told you I could keep going. Simulationism, realism, whatever. It's not a good argument against reloading unless you feel reality is unrealistic.

However, if I wanted to be more simulationist I'd introduce a number of other considerations to projectile weapons.
-tracking individual weapon barrel heats, and bringing a weapon out of the fight entirely if it get's too hot
-rounds cooking off, causing a delay as the weapon charges back again before it can fire the next round
-glowing barrels that indicate the weapon needs to cool down instead of a simple sliding scale in your hud
-glowing barrels that creat light effects that make them visible with the naked eye at night
-glowing barrels that make the mech EXTREMELY easy to spot, even when "shut down" on thermal sensors

But not being able to reload isn't simulationist or realistic. It's not fun either. But a minute or 2 of down time spent evading enemy light mechs has a possibility to add to the fun of the game that laying your mech down on the road for the bus to run over simply doesn't.

Please go on. I tried to keep my answer short, but we can talk in full length. I was in the army myself, so we can talk all over in detail if you wish to do so. I also know standard procedures, but we both know they are not followed all the time, otherwise it would be interesting why some people loose fingers or limbs while working in military service without bein in battle itself!?
When we talk about "reality" it is every time a little bit tricky, because we have reality and BT-reality, which is not the same, but will be quoted by most BT players as reality. This way I do it from time to time also without explaning; here as well.
About hot metal or metal et al. in your way is something pimary based on the novels. and yes if the metal was melting (Laser fire) and seals your loading slot you have to get in there somehow. Laser or Metal saw are whatever. Also written within the novels is the deformation of armor plates. In this case they where cutted away to get to the interesting point. Ask a firefighter (real reality) as well, after a car crash if the have to cut some metal to free people of a wreckage, I guess they will agree that metal is not "puff the magic dragon" and dissolves into thin air, but it is actually deforming. Furthermore, I wouldn't call it inservicable, but not easy to service.

I think I said nothing about barrel change oO in any way. I was talking about Laser lences. About hot lences, I want to see how you are touching your car engine after 500 miles driving without getting some burns :-) Actually, at no time in my life I tried to touch a high energy laser lense, so who is working with high energy lasers here to tell us if it is safe to touch them after rigid use!?!?!
The way they describe the way of heat transfer etc. is not realyistic in real-reality, but in BT-reality. This is artist freedom... Somehow you just have to make it more touchy.

Where did you find normal engines beside Agromechs? The "engine " are also not nuclear rather fusion reactors. Super heated plasma from which they gain their energy. The plasma is also controlled like today by a high energetic field, but much further developed. The coolant dispenses the heat over the whole Mech and heatsinks to get rid of the heat as far as possible, which could be mor efficiant. Again where are the highly paid engeniers to explain an exact cooling circle and the advantages and disadvantages for a Mech? I won't go into detail, because my knowledge is just to basic to explain anything correctly. Nuclear rectors are also existig, but not in classical BT. Different story.

About resupply I agree, maybe you misunderstood my point. I wrote earlier, that I am not a total enemy of field reload, but would like to have serious disadvantages to do so and not "Commander I need some ammo!" "No worrries Mechwarrior the fairy did it for you just within this second."
About your remarks about glowing barrels etc. that would be great. Your point about a wepon which doesn't fire anymore is only shown for Ultra AC, which can block by BT rules.

Shut down. See above!

If I forgot anything tell me, please!

[GrizzlyViking]

Reload from a friendly mobile field base should be fine as long as the field base can be destroyed and Mechs do not become invulnerable while in for reload.

[A11eycat]

Ralleigh and Dragorath both bring good points to the table,
As Relleigh said, a pre-established foxhole for weapons refueling or a vulnerable truck caravan would both be "realistic". Either would also provide an additional point of contention in-game, considering destroying the enemies would reduce the effectiveness of their ballistic weapons. On the point of Laser lenses, working with hot mechs and other "fun" stuff might motivate refueling crews to buy themselves a decent, or better, pair of heat-resilient gloves.
P.S. sorry Grizzly, no MFBs yet, haven't been invented!

Edited by A11eycat, 21 April 2012 - 10:18 AM.

[GrizzlyViking]

A11eycat, on 21 April 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

P.S. sorry Grizzly, no MFBs yet, haven't been invented!

No problem for me...I was just responding to the original post.

Quote

[color=#959595]Running out of ammo should be a danger, but if you can make it to a friendly mobile field base you should be able to resupply.[/color][color=#959595][/color]

If it's not dead before I run out of ammo, then I brought the wrong Mech.

[Ralleigh]

well Dragorath, I can see we actually agree on a lot more than I previously thought.

Melting plates, I can see that in some situations you might be able to fire away your last compliment of ammunition on a weapon that can't be reached by any one because of melted wreckage around it. Just dubious about how common that would be. Seems like, in most cases, the whole mech would need to have some serious work done to it, if it could be salvaged at all. And in that situation, I'd be amazed if the mech could move under it's own power let alon be able to reload it's weapons. Even in the examples you gave with fire fighters or from the novels, the vehicle in question was a "wreck"

I know you didn't mention the barrel swap, but I just wanted to cover all the issues that would even make sense for hot weapons. As for the lazers, yeah it's all up to the sci-fi authors for that.

And yeah, you're right. I forgot the bt mechs use fusion reactors and not fission ones. I just didn't realize the "engine" they referr to in the mechlabs for those games (video and tabletop) is actually the reactor. The word play makes things... confusing. It's like trying to talk to some one who doesn't know the difference between an alternator and a generator about an electrical system... only it's in the form of a whole series of novels. Whole other topic though by now.

[A11eycat]

GrizzlyViking, on 21 April 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

If it's not dead before I run out of ammo, then I brought the wrong Mech.

Or the game has gone on way too long thanks to shinaniganizing!

Edited by A11eycat, 21 April 2012 - 10:51 AM.

[MechRaccoon]

I like the idea of refilling your ammo, but it shouldn't be ridiculously overpowered. If it only takes you 3 seconds to travel from the middle of the map to your base to resupply your Hunchback's AC20, you practically become GOD. You can fire that AC20 and do as much damage as you want as long as an Atlas doesn't sneak up behind you under passive radar and KO your mech instantly. (The Atlas has an AC20 too, you know.) I think the best way to approach this is to have limited reloads per battle or make the maps nice and large to turn that 3 second trip into...say...a 1 1/2 minute trip?

[neodym]

anybody who voted first option is class 1a BoucheDag

ofcourse we need way to replenish ammo,some station in spawn or something....

[Rejarial Galatan]

Been a while since I chimed in here, but, I think I shall again. While I myself tend to avoid ammo heavy or ammo dependant layouts and use mainly energy weapons with gauss for back up, way i see it is, players WILL use ammo heavy mechs and truly will need SOME way to replenish that ammo. We all will even need <depending on combat times> a way to repair in the field and MFB usually in prior titles refilled ammo while repairing, so, ya, atleast SOME way to repair/rearm would be nice, even if you gotta abandon the front line to do it.

neodym, on 21 April 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

anybody who voted first option is class 1a BoucheDag

was that really necessary?

[A11eycat]

I agree with Rejarial, many of us may not need to refuel weapons, but for mechs like the Catapult, five salvos and your done, then what?
It would be beneficial to both teams to have a refuel or rearming point, it would provide a source of fighting, and allow otherwise useless mechs a chance to continue contributing to their team, refueling/rearming would also take time, say maybe four to ten minutes, dependent on the mech, the crew reloading, and the amount of ammunition required.

[Th3Q]

Reload should ba a option! For one were you hot droped in?? If no, then yes as your drop ship is in the area!
It should take quite some ingame time to reach ur drop ship as one just wouldnt land a drop ship close to the conflict
or maybe you would if your company is prepared to defend its way back home

[Damocles]

neodym, on 21 April 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

anybody who voted first option is class a BoucheDag

Real nice guy here.

[DocBach]

If there's some kind of mini-ammo depot you can reload at, it better explode in a glorious fireball and take whoevers reloading next to it if I shoot it.

[Atlai]

*computerized female voice*''Ammo Depleted''

[neodym]

Rejarial Galatan, on 21 April 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

was that really necessary?

nothing in really necessary,not even our whole universe is necessary

but I get your point,I dont always argue too much on net but I always give it one chance,so here it goes:


refil stations are clearly needed for good gameplay,only people that dont want it are those Awesome fans,they think they will grape everybody with their PPC forever,they want to be OP against missile and ballistic mechs like hunchback and catapult,those would really suffer,we need way to get fresh ammo,people who are against ammo reload are like Jehova Wittness trying to convince you to not take blood transfusion and safe your life becose blah blah ammo/blood reload is bad blah blah

if there will not be any reload stations I would fit every mech I have only with energy weapons,many people will do so too,it would kill the rich nature of combat.

The reload station should be relatively far away from combat zone,reload should take some time,this way its balanced

Edited by neodym, 22 April 2012 - 04:32 PM.

[Damocles]

I am not an energy boat fan.
I support no ammo reloads.

So what am I now? Still a "BoucheDag" or am I a "Jehova Wittness" or something else you can cleverly try to insult anyone who doesn't hold your opinion with?

[BL00D RAVEN]

How about a supply truck for each team that can be destroyed and that the commander can tell where to go?

[wwiiogre]

How about drop a weapon, some armor or a heat sink to get that extra ton of ammo or two tons if you think it will be a long fight. That is what made the game of Battle Tech and Mechwarrior so hard. You had to balance things. Ammo for munition weapons, heat for energy, distance to target for different ranged weapons, you actually had to worry about getting ganked by someone who specialized in close melee combat. You could even be put on fire by flamers. Not to mention mines, artillery, air strikes, air launched mines, Naval gun fire, infantry, AT guns and on and on and on. Bad people could demo the bridge you are on and drop you into a chasm etc. this game will have a lot less than that, but it should have heat and ammo management because that is the most basic ability of a pilot other than maneuvering the machine. Don't get to hot, use your ammo sparingly cause you can run out. Take that away and it is no longer Mech Warrior. It is an arcade style fps with powerups and super guns.

Even after all of that I still want reloads in the game using the table top rules. If you have a cargo loader and the ammo pre positioned. Then a mech that is shut down/or still can have the loader load one ton every thirty seconds with an 8% chance of an ammo explosion. Those are the rules for field loading otherwise it takes 6 minutes to 15 minutes a ton based on skill of the crew. Now a mech with hands and all arm actuators working, you know those useless things you take out to make more space in your arms to fit more guns. That kind of mech can load another mech, it takes 50 seconds per ton loaded and there is also an 8% chance for an explosion per ton loaded. Note if the mech being loaded is hit in the back torso while being loaded all ammo will explode since it is open and not protected by armor. If the ammo on the ground is hit it will explode and all ammo on the ground, all ammo in an open spot on the mech or on the loader will explode as well.

Now with those rules that are canon and used in Battle Tech are allowed to be used in MWO, I have no problem with that. Because the risk is far greater than the rewards. The mech that wants a reload is going to have to pull out of battle, find the loader, have spent money to have the reloads already there on the ground and move to the location from 3 minutes to 5 minutes or more away from battle, because see above what happens if live rounds hit anywhere near live ammo. Then make the 8% roll for catastrophic mishap for rushing a 6 minute procedure into a 30 second process during combat per ton loaded.

If someone wants to risk all that, knowing the consequences then I am ok with that and it could involve some interesting play. Like blowing up something someone else paid for, killing defenseless mechs while they reload. Stealing the ammo and truck because it isn't guarded. Etc.

Just I want ammo cause I don't want to run out, is baby, enabling. Suck it up, make the hard choices, drop something else to get more ammo. That is what I do. Or, pay the consequences for doing something dangerous with high explosives during combat. But don't ask for it for free cause you feel entitled to your cake.

chris

[Phoenixfire]

Field bases only on the largest maps and with the full company vs company mech but only at base and limited respawn