589 replies to this topic

[ArchSight]

Victor Morson, on 07 April 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

I'm still wondering how all you people are having such a radically different experience with trolls. I've clocked a LOT (way, way too many) hours into games with VoIP and I'd say trolls account for less than 5% of the player base, and are kicked or muted promptly without fail.

My suspicion is that many of you must be coming from the Xbox 360. I tried playing GTA4's multiplayer on there and it was a cascade of maddening idiocy that was a maelstrom of racism, rapping, idiocy and people trying to convince you how "hard" they were because of their city. Then again, they also all insisted on using autoaim on the smallest possible maps "'cause we make more money that way!" Even my best experiences with non-friend VoIP on 360 have been somebody blaring their TV or talking on the phone into the mic.

If that's your experience, I'm sorry but.. I understand. I really do. I completely get why you hate VoIP. That also doesn't match my experience on PC, at all. In particular in teamwork centric games; the more hardcore and team oriented they are, the less this is a problem. You cannot judge a PC sim's voice chat by this standard.

Nope, I have no XBOX360, I play on PC exclusively. in Call of duty 4 and many other games, VOIP is not used by the large majority of PC gamers. They like using Team speak,ventrillo, and skype more. So you only hear trolls most of the time, instead of hardcore gamers on VOIP. On the console everyone is forced to use VOIP but MWO is not going to be on the console now, is it?

[Giftmacher]

ArchSight, on 07 April 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

Nope, I have no XBOX360, I play on PC exclusively. in Call of duty 4 and many other games

Out of curiosity what are the other games?

[Victor Morson]

ArchSight, on 07 April 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

Nope, I have no XBOX360, I play on PC exclusively. in Call of duty 4 and many other games, VOIP is not used by the large majority of PC gamers. They like using Team speak,ventrillo, and skype more. So you only hear trolls most of the time, instead of hardcore gamers on VOIP. On the console everyone is forced to use VOIP but MWO is not going to be on the console now, is it?

While I never had that experience with CoD4 on PC, CoD4 is also very much a "lone wolf" kind of game. Team tactics aren't really required even at high level play beyond "Do not go for X flag" or "Go for Y flag" - mostly if you want to manipulate the system to spawn the entire enemy team at a terrible start point (other than around the map). In terms of actual combat, all friendlies are is a target you don't want to shoot. You don't really NEED to back anyone up because if you can see the enemy you can probably kill them in a tenth of a second.

As a result, nobody is going to use VoIP very tactically in the game. It's pace is too fast, it's spawns too random for it. It's a tournament shooter wrapped in a tacops veneer. Which is a fun thing, don't get me wrong! I liked CoD4 a lot, and was even pretty good at it.. so don't take this the wrong way. It's just NOT a teamwork centric game beyond simple concepts. By the time you announce a flag is going to get overrun, it's probably already blinking on radar. 10 seconds after you voice a request for help you've already respawned and can kill the guy who killed you personally.

You can't possibly compare it to a game where heavy teamwork is required. I think it really comes down to balance, again; MW is balanced low enough that it REQUIRES heavy teamwork to make kills effectively. That's why L4D keeps getting popped up - you spend an entire map just trying to make 4 kills (or avoid them), not going on 50+ kill kill streaks. As such it requires a lot of coordination, planning, etc. to achieve anything. You see radically different uses of voice chat in games like that.

EDIT: In defense of the 360 crowd, I've ironically had pretty decent experiences - though limited ones - with Gears of War VoIP. Maybe I got lucky.

Edited by Victor Morson, 07 April 2012 - 01:29 PM.

[ArchSight]

Giftmacher, on 07 April 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

Out of curiosity what are the other games?

K here's a list of VOIP Games that I have played on the PC: Battlefield 2142, Call Of Duty 4 modern warfare, Crysis and Crysis Warhead, Burn-Out Paradise, Team Fortress 2, Section 8, Black Light Retribution, probably more that I don't remember or will have later.

Edited by ArchSight, 07 April 2012 - 01:46 PM.

[Archtus]

ArchSight, on 07 April 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

K here's a list of VOIP Games that I have played on the PC: Battlefield 2142, Call Of Duty 4 modern warfare, Crysis and Crysis Warhead, Burn-Out Paradise, Team Fortress 2, Section 8, Black Light Retribution, probably more that I don't remember or will have later.

I've learned the average age of CoD and BF tends to be closer to 10-14... BurnOut is a game that practically revolves around crashing. With a few racing levels in between.

[Sir Aaron]

Okey i will talk now about a game i have spend endless houers in. Counterstrike Source. It is team based you have small maps rounds are fast and well many people know it. I mention it here because it has a good voice over ip solution: You can mute individuals, have the teams separated and it is simple working. The amount of tactical use .. Well i am mainly on fun server so not so much for me it is there but usually you don't bother. The amount of fun to be able to simple chat away with the people you are playing? A lot. I wouldnt know most of the people i have played for month if i where not able to use it.

Why do i want a easy to access VOIP? Simple because every third party solution that is not implemented in game means that i actually have to tab out find the rest of the group, join them. Tab back in curse about the crash restart the game and .. you get the idea. Of course i understand if you guys say that you cant have it from start but please put it back in later. And although it plays a bit of the role play atmosphere it take a lot of the fun if you get suddenly silenced just because your mech has blown up.

[Jack Gallows]

PGI including a VoIP at launch isn't needed.

For those who don't have 3rd party software....it takes 3 seconds to DL. Most people in this day and age have one or two of them already.

Most matches are going to be full groups, with lone wolves having to pug it. There's not much chance of getting all those lone wolves to use the VoIP, even if it's offered. Look at other game that have a basic version of it...hardly ANYONE use them.

More resources towards other places, VoIP in MW:O at launch is wasted time.

[soulfire]

Alright lets keep beating this dead horse we've all heard the for and the against arguments nothings new stop beating the freeking horse Devs said no. live with it maybe they will put it in later I and many I know will just shut it off. So you'll have same problem anyway. Move on use your energy to ***** about something else like which mechs or whatever. Why you think large lasers should be red instead of pink. What is this thing about my little pony???

The horse is dead quit kicking it

[Dirk Le Daring]

soulfire, on 07 April 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

Alright lets keep beating this dead horse we've all heard the for and the against arguments nothings new stop beating the freeking horse Devs said no. live with it maybe they will put it in later I and many I know will just shut it off. So you'll have same problem anyway. Move on use your energy to ***** about something else like which mechs or whatever. Why you think large lasers should be red instead of pink. What is this thing about my little pony???

The horse is dead quit kicking it

I think largely the responses in favour are all about letting the Devs know how we feel. If there are the numbers to support voice, then it would be wise for them to listen. They said no for release, but not ruled out forever. Maybe we just need the Devs to make and pin a poll, just a simple yes/no and lock it. The why's and wherefores are not nessecary. Just a thought

Edited by Dirk Le Daring, 07 April 2012 - 05:22 PM.

[Calvin Vakarian]

OK, I'll admit to being a newbie, but what is VOIP exactly?

[Archtus]

Voice over Internet Protocol.

Basically voice chat over the web.

I am for a built in option, like many others, whereas many others believe it's a waste for a number of reasons.

In any tactical based game, it has it's uses, but when it;s in games like Call of Duty, it winds up just being a voice chat for trolling, slurring, sexist comments, and things of that ilk.

Edited by Archtus, 07 April 2012 - 04:18 PM.

[Victor Morson]

ArchSight, on 07 April 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

K here's a list of VOIP Games that I have played on the PC: Battlefield 2142, Call Of Duty 4 modern warfare, Crysis and Crysis Warhead, Burn-Out Paradise, Team Fortress 2, Section 8, Black Light Retribution, probably more that I don't remember or will have later.

Nearly no game on that list requires tight team coordination, the closest being TF2 - but even there, you generally are in a "If you know your role, you do it" kind of situation. They all move too fast and are way too loose with spawns to make VoIP very required at all.

The slower and more deliberate pace the game is, the more voice chat is important.

Sir Aaron, on 07 April 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

Okey i will talk now about a game i have spend endless houers in. Counterstrike Source. It is team based you have small maps rounds are fast and well many people know it. I mention it here because it has a good voice over ip solution: You can mute individuals, have the teams separated and it is simple working. The amount of tactical use .. Well i am mainly on fun server so not so much for me it is there but usually you don't bother. The amount of fun to be able to simple chat away with the people you are playing? A lot. I wouldnt know most of the people i have played for month if i where not able to use it.

Yep, CS:S has well integrated voice chat; but you are right, on fun servers it's not so necessary (again due to pacing). CS:S in team play does benefit greatly from voice chat - more than the games ArchSight was talking about - mostly to discuss a basic plan (what route to take, mostly) between rounds without slowing down.

Jack Gallows, on 07 April 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

PGI including a VoIP at launch isn't needed.

For those who don't have 3rd party software....it takes 3 seconds to DL. Most people in this day and age have one or two of them already.

This keeps getting brought up, but there are a million reasons this won't work in a public environment. Nobody is asking for VoIP to benefit organized companies of 12+ people, no one at all. For teams of say, 8 people that role with 4 people on another team, or are unassociated pilots, VoIP suddenly becomes vital. Even if the 8 and 4 players both have TS, they're not going to jump onto each other's servers for a single drop.

Seriously, again, this issue is not for organized units. It's for pubs or multiple organized units in the same company for a drop.

Jack Gallows, on 07 April 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

Most matches are going to be full groups, with lone wolves having to pug it. There's not much chance of getting all those lone wolves to use the VoIP, even if it's offered. Look at other game that have a basic version of it...hardly ANYONE use them.

More resources towards other places, VoIP in MW:O at launch is wasted time.

Again, it strongly, strongly depends on the game. The problem is a lot of games are designed for lone wolf, ultra-fast gameplay. MechWarrior isn't. L4D is the best one I can bring up, because seriously a team of bad players that talk to each other can beat good ones that don't consistently.

Finally most matches will not be full groups. Most matches will not be hardcore players, or units. In order for a game to be successful it will need a large population of, no disrespect intended, people you'd consider scrubs. I expect if the game is successful for us hardcore team players to be outnumbered no less than 100:1 minimum. You get a very, very very skewed view of the player base being on the forums.

I mean go take one look at the pilot sign ups. They're at 70,000 already. Do you see 70,000 people posting on these forums, or in general, the same 200-300 people? That should give you some idea of who the "majority" are.

[Insidious Johnson]

Orzorn, on 07 April 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

I'm just going to say this one last thing and be done with this thread:
I'm glad some of you understand the importance of communication, even if you don't support in-game VOIP (for whatever reason).

However, it seems some folks really contradict themselves. They claim that they only use third party VOIP, which means they do it all the time with their groups. So you get to have your VOIP, right? You get your communication. Yet some would claim that they don't want in-game VOIP because "people will blare music, offensive rants, offensive content, loud noises and other forms of grief". Yet any good VOIP has a mute.

So what I'm just reading from some people is that they're just fine with THEM having VOIP, but they'd absolutely hate if the unwashed masses got it, because 'they'll probably just abuse it/not use it/blare music/blah blah'.

Honestly, I expected less selfishness out of this community.

Um no. That is your 'take' not empirical truth. PGI has STATED they are not looking into built in VOIP by launch. Period. There are free alternatives and have been since the inception of online team play. No one is STOPPING the unwashed hordes from doing what every league player has been required to do before even being allowed to drop with competant responsible groups who have a stake in the outcome. They are FREE to be farmed (without comms) or FREE to do the farming (with comms). I AM an unaffiliated lone wolf. It has been an expected part of my culture to jump from comm to comm depending on with whom I'm playing. I've been farmed and I've been farming. I've cared about my own performance enough to meet the expected standards. Others are free to do the same, or not. Consequences abound for both choices! IMHO you are pandering to the selfish inertia of anyone unwilling to meet the bare minimum of basic participation in the form of communication. I.E. "Ok baby, you don't hafta download that mean evil third party softwares, I know its too hard for you snuggums!" While the alternative is expect the player to have already been done with baby steps such as: computer on, coms on, game on. The basic theme here is LIVE COMBAT DARWINISM. The weak are FOOD for the strong! That is the essenstial nature of it, is it not? The thing is, as far as communications go, weak or strong is a personal choice here not an attribute of birth. Painfully simple. If it is a deal breaker for you then by now I can reasonably assume there will be no response instead of hearing about how a decision you do not like is selfish.

Edited by Insidious Johnson, 07 April 2012 - 04:36 PM.

[Archtus]

Jack Gallows, on 07 April 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

PGI including a VoIP at launch isn't needed.

For those who don't have 3rd party software....it takes 3 seconds to DL. Most people in this day and age have one or two of them already.

Most matches are going to be full groups, with lone wolves having to pug it. There's not much chance of getting all those lone wolves to use the VoIP, even if it's offered. Look at other game that have a basic version of it...hardly ANYONE use them.

More resources towards other places, VoIP in MW:O at launch is wasted time.

Victor Morson, on 07 April 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

Nearly no game on that list requires tight team coordination, the closest being TF2 - but even there, you generally are in a "If you know your role, you do it" kind of situation. They all move too fast and are way too loose with spawns to make VoIP very required at all.

The slower and more deliberate pace the game is, the more voice chat is important.



Yep, CS:S has well integrated voice chat; but you are right, on fun servers it's not so necessary (again due to pacing). CS:S in team play does benefit greatly from voice chat - more than the games ArchSight was talking about - mostly to discuss a basic plan (what route to take, mostly) between rounds without slowing down.



This keeps getting brought up, but there are a million reasons this won't work in a public environment. Nobody is asking for VoIP to benefit organized companies of 12+ people, no one at all. For teams of say, 8 people that role with 4 people on another team, or are unassociated pilots, VoIP suddenly becomes vital. Even if the 8 and 4 players both have TS, they're not going to jump onto each other's servers for a single drop.

Seriously, again, this issue is not for organized units. It's for pubs or multiple organized units in the same company for a drop.



Again, it strongly, strongly depends on the game. The problem is a lot of games are designed for lone wolf, ultra-fast gameplay. MechWarrior isn't. L4D is the best one I can bring up, because seriously a team of bad players that talk to each other can beat good ones that don't consistently.

Finally most matches will not be full groups. Most matches will not be hardcore players, or units. In order for a game to be successful it will need a large population of, no disrespect intended, people you'd consider scrubs. I expect if the game is successful for us hardcore team players to be outnumbered no less than 100:1 minimum. You get a very, very very skewed view of the player base being on the forums.

I mean go take one look at the pilot sign ups. They're at 70,000 already. Do you see 70,000 people posting on these forums, or in general, the same 200-300 people? That should give you some idea of who the "majority" are.

I'd like to put in, in DDO, most groups, with the exception of a guild PLvling a new guy, are almost always PUGs. Turbine has had built in VoIP for a very, very long time. It is used extensively by the players, even by guilds and dedicated groups. Heck, ny entire guild uses the built in VoIP. With the exception of a misplaced microphone(too close or too far, which is easily fixed with the rest of the groups' input). I would like to put in that having 6-12 people doing a stealth based quest(By the Nine Divines I hate that quest with raw passion), tactical communication, even by newbs, is extensively utilised.

[Victor Morson]

Insidious Johnson, on 07 April 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

Um no. That is your 'take' not empirical truth. PGI has STATED they are not looking into built in VOIP. Period.

This is flat out not true. Earlier they were discussing adding it at a later time, and also directly said they were taking feedback into account. So this statement is entirely false.

Insidious Johnson, on 07 April 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

There are free alternatives and have been since the inception of online team play. No one is STOPPING the unwashed hordes from doing what every league player has been required to do before even being allowed to drop with competant responsible groups who have a stake in the outcome. They are FREE to be farmed (without comms) or FREE to do the farming (with comms).

Turning the majority of players into fodder to be farmed is a sure way to frustrate them into qutting the game. Sounds like a brilliant idea.

Insidious Johnson, on 07 April 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

I AM an unaffiliated lone wolf. It has been an expected part of my culture to jump from comm to comm depending on with whom I'm playing.

The vast majority of teams are not handing out their personal team TS password to some random guy unless they're recruiting. They've got to pay by the slot. There's only a handful setup like this.

Insidious Johnson, on 07 April 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

I've been farmed and I've been farming. I've cared about my own performance enough to meet the expected standards. Others are free to do the same, or not. Consequences abound for both choices! IMHO you are pandering to the selfish inertia of anyone unwilling to meet the bare minimum of basic participation in the form of communication. I.E. "Ok baby, you don't hafta download that mean evil third party softwares, I know its too hard for you snuggums!"

That kind of attitude definitely won't earn many com invites. That said, not everyone will be on the same third party software, want to give out their server passwords or - in the case of multiple teams that BOTH have it together - want to leave their TS channel to join someone else's for a single drop. If I'm on the Aces channel and we drop with, say, Gray Death Legion and they're on their channel because that's how the teams happened to work out, neither team is going to want to tab out and dick around with setting up TS to join another channel. You can't do this stuff without losing a LOT of time. This isn't a League situation where you have hours advanced notice before a fight to prepare - you should be able to find a drop anytime, anywhere. It's not the same thing.

Insidious Johnson, on 07 April 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

While the alternative is expect the player to have already been done with baby steps such as: computer on, coms on, game on. The basic theme here is LIVE COMBAT DARWINISM. The weak are FOOD for the strong! That is the essenstial nature of it, is it not? The thing is, as far as communications go, weak or strong is a personal choice here not an attribute of birth. Painfully simple. If it is a deal breaker for you then by now I can reasonably assume there will be no response instead of hearing about how a decision you do not like is selfish.

If the weak aren't given the tools to at least be competent, they'll get frustrated and the only thing you'll be strong in is a game that had to discontinue service. Nobody, nobody wants that.

EDIT: I'm getting the distinct feeling there's a certain percentage of people in the anti-VoIP crowd that want it that way so they can more easily "farm" pubbies. That's pretty screwed up selfish thinking if it's the case.

Edited by Victor Morson, 07 April 2012 - 04:36 PM.

[Insidious Johnson]

Victor I'm thinking we both haven't read the article on zam.com. I know I have. I'm not even sure you have read the original post in this thread. How is it Paul says the result of their discussion = NO VOIP and that translates (to YOU) that my statement to that effect is "entirely false"? It does go on further to say that Optimal.... will include both voice and Information Warfare, but AFTER the statement of no built in VOIP! So it is reasonable to conclude he was referencing the availability of 3rd party software. As for you accusatorial edit, you show your OWN true nature. My stake in this is not "farming n00bs" but not push back release until FALL. As of right NOW my goal is to get SHOOTING as fast as possible (I got a bullseye T-Shirt for ya). The rest of your catagorical retorts were built on the original premise of falsehood. But, since you've just been pwned, I'll let the rest of your argument collapse on its own dead weight.

/quote
Paul: This was a discussion we had early on in the design and engineering phase of MWO. We had thought it would be cool to have VOIP interrupted by scrambling signals or have a snooping device that would let you listen to the other team's VOIP channel. But immediately, those of us who play competitive multi-player brought up the 3rd party solutions like TeamSpeak and Ventrilo as a means to bypass these distortion and snooping mechanics. It was decided that we would not include VOIP with MWO as most players would have their own TeamSpeak/Ventrilo running anyhow.
As for the voice coms affecting the game; the information found on the BattleGrid is a lot more precise than what a player would be able to communicate via voice. The optimal means of sharing enemy information will be a combination of both voice and in-game Information Warfare.
/quote

[Victor Morson]

Insidious Johnson, on 07 April 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

Victor I'm thinking we both haven't read the article on zam.com. I know I have. I'm not even sure you have read the original post in this thread. How is it Paul says the result of their discussion = NO VOIP and that translates (to YOU) that my statement to that effect is "entirely false"? It does go on further to say that Optimal.... will include both voice and Information Warfare, but AFTER the statement of no built in VOIP! So it is reasonable to conclude he was referencing the availability of 3rd party software.

..

As for you accusatorial edit, you show your OWN true nature. My stake in this is not "farming n00bs" but not push back release until FALL. As of right NOW my goal is to get SHOOTING as fast as possible (I got a bullseye T-Shirt for ya). The rest of your catagorical retorts were built on the original premise of falsehood. But, since you've just been pwned, I'll let the rest of your argument collapse on its own dead weight.

Earlier in this very thread (edited because of the lynch mob that formed) Paul posted discussing the idea of implementing basic voice chat into the game, given it already exists in the Crysis engine. There were also other quotes relating to this, in effect basic VoIP might be installed (but in-game effects, rightfully, are out). Since you're just joining us, however, you probably missed out on that.

And did you seriously say I was "pwned?" Oh, my.

Insidious Johnson, on 07 April 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

Um no. That is your 'take' not empirical truth. PGI has STATED they are not looking into built in VOIP by launch.

Also nice edit there. Your original post said they weren't looking into VoIP period.

Just a refresher:

Quote

That aside, your OP is definitely valid and falls into a grey zone. The core users will most likely use their own solution, the casual users will most likely use none. However a tight knit small group as you have mentioned, is left out in the cold. I wish I had a solution in place that filled this middle ground. Know that it is on our radar.

...

We always weigh what is of the most value to the consumer. While VOIP is a reasonable value, a high quality MWO VOIP solution was not feasible for launch. We have a backlog of features, VOIP being one of them. Post launch, we plan to revisit VOIP and see what we can come up with.

As a side note, I'm OK with this not being a launch feature. As long as it's on the radar as something to add before the first major expansion I'm entirely alright with it. I don't want to get that confused.

Edited by Victor Morson, 07 April 2012 - 05:17 PM.

[soulfire]

Yea no voip in the begining. They may look at it at a later date. They take suggestions but people whining for 316 posts is a bit past suggestions and is getting more like whining or beating a dead horse!. Not like it use to be with your parents where if you whine enough at them they will buy that my little pony for you just to shut you up.They are on a budget, they are trying to get whats needed in the game at the moment so they can get it out and get the money to start coming in. There will be updates and added content down the line maybe Voip will be one of those.

Oh this is fun poke poke poke I see why Paul does what he does at times

[Insidious Johnson]

Victor Morson, on 07 April 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

And did you seriously say I was "pwned?" Oh, my.

Of course! It is my primary mission in life to support your preconceived notions! That and 'pwned' has been circling on the periphery of my lexicon for a decade.... secretly building up its forces to invade my inner sphere! I can already feel it eating away @ my very FRR! I'm done with this thread. I'm ready to shoot stuff and the old mech games do not cut it anymore. Think what you want, make all the caustic accusations you want, be what you cannot help but being, I don't care. I'm just ready to start enjoying the basic meat and potatoes of blasting mechs, everything else is just friggin gravy. Here is a spoon and a straw, go nuts.

[ArchSight]

Victor Morson, on 07 April 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

Again, it strongly, strongly depends on the game. The problem is a lot of games are designed for lone wolf, ultra-fast gameplay. MechWarrior isn't. L4D is the best one I can bring up, because seriously a team of bad players that talk to each other can beat good ones that don't consistently.

Your wrong there, a team of friends that have no VOIP and also knows how each other plays can beat a VOIP team of strangers. What makes you win in these team games is what you have already before you enter the match. The players mind set, there items, what mech they choose to bring, What map is it and so forth. A team that already knows there strategy and tactics will always do better than a random bunch of strangers. That's why I said go make 12 Friends that play MWO and train there ***** tell they spew lead and bubblegum. VOIP alone is not enough and does not mean victory.