93 replies to this topic

[Paladin1]

Codejack, on 01 November 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

OK, let's break it down:

-The trial Raven has the same top speed as the trial Dragon and a weapon loadout that would have a hard time taking out another light mech even if it had enough heatsinks, which it doesn't
-The trial Centurion has a small LRM that usually cannot penetrate AMS, and again with the energy weapons and not enough heatsinks
-The trial Dragon has the same small LRM and energy weapons with few heatsinks, but also an AC5, which is perhaps the worst weapon in the game due to a combination of it being medium-ranged, hard to aim, and slow-moving
-The trial Awesome is the best of the bunch, but is basically an LRM boat with ammunition problems; if you get lucky with all of the LRMs and then have time for your heatsinks to cool down a few times while shooting your lasers, you might be able to take out a light or medium mech

This isn't baseline, this is intentionally ill-equipped. None of the trial mechs are capable of filling any sensible role in a combat lance: The light can't scout, the medium can't flank, the heavy can't give fire support, and the assault can't hold the line. Their only function is to serve as targets for properly equipped mechs.

Yes, let's break this down.

The Raven has the same speed as the Dragon, WHICH IS A CAVALRY DESIGN. Get that through your head, the Dragon is not a line heavy, it's a Cavalry unit. It's designed to go faster than average, have respectable armor and decent long range weapons to engage and destroy enemy scouts. Guess what, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT IT DOES! Again, the Raven is an average scout and does it's job well enough, considering that the average top speed of a line unit is 64 kph. That you don't seem to be able to grasp that your job, as a SCOUT, is not to engage the enemy directly but to pinpoint the enemy's position for the rest of your team is not the fault of the `Mech. If you're doing your job correctly, then the Raven's heat scale isn't a big issue.

The Centurion is a medium line trooper, designed to engage at all ranges. It's interesting to me that you claim that an LRM-10 can't get through an AMS system, but one of the biggest complaints against the trial designs is the lack of AMS. You're problem sounds like one of target selection rather than anything that the `Mech is doing wrong. As for the laser weapons and your charge of a lack of heatsinks, you do realize that the CN9-AL isn't designed to fire all of it's lasers at the same time, right? You're supposed to snipe with the LL while slowly closing the range, then finish your target off with the MLs. Again, it's not the fault of the `Mech if you can't grasp how to use it.

The Dragon is, again, designed to operate as a cavalry `Mech, which means scout hunting and screening duties. The LRMs are to soften up your target and the AC is for midrange work while you close to use the MLs. Again, learn your unit's strengths and weaknesses before you complain about them.

As for your charge that the Awesome is basically a LRM boat with ammo problems, this shows me that you really don't understand how to run the design. You don't use it like a true LRM boat, you use it as a long range direct fire unit. The whole reason why you're running a light ammo load to begin with is because the Awesome isn't designed to hide like a LRM boat, it's designed to follow the main assault and provide secondary support. Once the LRMs are gone, you provide direct LL support.

Really, this is basic Battletech Tactics 101. The roles of a unit aren't defined by weight but by capabilities. The trial `Mechs, while not tweaked out like custom machines, are completely valid to fill their designed role. The problem is that you and many others don't understand what those roles are, evidenced by your statements.

Codejack, on 01 November 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

None of the trial mechs are capable of filling any sensible role in a combat lance: The light can't scout, the medium can't flank, the heavy can't give fire support, and the assault can't hold the line. Their only function is to serve as targets for properly equipped mechs.

Simply put, you're wrong. Horribly, horribly wrong and what's worse is that you can't see why you're wrong. The trial designs are the baseline units and, frankly, could be a lot worse. These are actually pretty nice variants compared to some, if you really get right down to it. Want an example of how bad it could be? Take the SHD-2D Shadow Hawk variant. Two medium lasers, two SRM-2 packs, an LRM 5 and an AC/5, eleven single heatsinks with a maximum speed of 84 KPH and a whopping 144 armor points all on a 55 ton chassis. That's right, 5 tons HEAVIER than a Centurion or Hunchback. Now don't ever talk to me again about "gimped" designs, you don't know what the **** you're talking about.

Edited by Paladin1, 01 November 2012 - 10:17 AM.

[Codejack]

Paladin1, on 01 November 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

Yes, let's break this down.

The Raven has the same speed as the Dragon, WHICH IS A CAVALRY DESIGN. Get that through your head, the Dragon is not a line heavy, it's a Cavalry unit. It's designed to go faster than average, have respectable armor and decent long range weapons to engage and destroy enemy scouts. Guess what, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT IT DOES! Again, the Raven is an average scout and does it's job well enough, considering that the average top speed of a line unit is 64 kph. That you don't seem to be able to grasp that your job, as a SCOUT, is not to engage the enemy directly but to pinpoint the enemy's position for the rest of your team is not the fault of the `Mech. If you're doing your job correctly, then the Raven's heat scale isn't a big issue.

The Centurion is a medium line trooper, designed to engage at all ranges. It's interesting to me that you claim that an LRM-10 can't get through an AMS system, but one of the biggest complaints against the trial designs is the lack of AMS. You're problem sounds like one of target selection rather than anything that the `Mech is doing wrong. As for the laser weapons and your charge of a lack of heatsinks, you do realize that the CN9-AL isn't designed to fire all of it's lasers at the same time, right? You're supposed to snipe with the LL while slowly closing the range, then finish your target off with the MLs. Again, it's not the fault of the `Mech if you can't grasp how to use it.

The Dragon is, again, designed to operate as a cavalry `Mech, which means scout hunting and screening duties. The LRMs are to soften up your target and the AC is for midrange work while you close to use the MLs. Again, learn your unit's strengths and weaknesses before you complain about them.

As for your charge that the Awesome is basically a LRM boat with ammo problems, this shows me that you really don't understand how to run the design. You don't use it like a true LRM boat, you use it as a long range direct fire unit. The whole reason why you're running a light ammo load to begin with is because the Awesome isn't designed to hide like a LRM boat, it's designed to follow the main assault and provide secondary support. Once the LRMs are gone, you provide direct LL support.

Really, this is basic Battletech Tactics 101. The roles of a unit aren't defined by weight but by capabilities. The trial `Mechs, while not tweaked out like custom machines, are completely valid to fill their designed role. The problem is that you and many others don't understand what those roles are, evidenced by your statements.



Simply put, you're wrong. Horribly, horribly wrong and what's worse is that you can't see why you're wrong. The trial designs are the baseline units and, frankly, could be a lot worse. These are actually pretty nice variants compared to some, if you really get right down to it. Want an example of how bad it could be? Take the SHD-2D Shadow Hawk variant. Two medium lasers, two SRM-2 packs, an LRM 5 and an AC/5, eleven single heatsinks with a maximum speed of 84 KPH and a whopping 144 armor points all on a 55 ton chassis. That's right, 5 tons HEAVIER than a Centurion or Hunchback. Now don't ever talk to me again about "gimped" designs, you don't know what the **** you're talking about.

Wow, I have never seen such an incredible pile of... nope, can't say that. Every single one of your points is wrong, from beginning to end. None of the trial mechs has a weapon loadout that is capable of effectively combating and equal-weight, properly equipped mech. They don't even meet the requirements for the roles that you seem to be assigning to them, which are not appropriate to the state of this game. What in the world do we need cavary mechs for? None of the maps is big enough for it to matter!

The big thing you seem to be missing is that, for the most part, trial mech PUGs are fighting founder premades; the fact that your strategy "works" is not a comment on your skill, but a reflection of the GIMP nature of your opponents' mechs, and I can only imagine that you are in denial so that you don't have to face up to the fact that you obviously have no clue what you are doing.

[Paladin1]

Codejack, on 01 November 2012 - 10:24 AM, said:

Wow, I have never seen such an incredible pile of... nope, can't say that. Every single one of your points is wrong, from beginning to end. None of the trial mechs has a weapon loadout that is capable of effectively combating and equal-weight, properly equipped mech. They don't even meet the requirements for the roles that you seem to be assigning to them, which are not appropriate to the state of this game. What in the world do we need cavary mechs for? None of the maps is big enough for it to matter!

The big thing you seem to be missing is that, for the most part, trial mech PUGs are fighting founder premades; the fact that your strategy "works" is not a comment on your skill, but a reflection of the GIMP nature of your opponents' mechs, and I can only imagine that you are in denial so that you don't have to face up to the fact that you obviously have no clue what you are doing.

So no proof, just personal experience on your part to "prove" that you're right. Good God you're dense.

Oh, btw, you just proved my original point, you can't grasp why the trial `Mechs are BASELINE designs even when you know that they are just that and you even said so yourself. Remember, "None of the trial mechs has a weapon loadout that is capable of effectively combating and equal-weight, properly equipped mech." Simply put, the trials are the baseline from which you build. The custom rides we unlock and tweak in the `Mechlab are UPGRADES.

UPGRADE > BASELINE do you understand this? The UPGRADED version can't be the BASELINE, otherwise you wind up with power creep.

[Joseph Mallan]

Codejack, on 01 November 2012 - 10:24 AM, said:

Wow, I have never seen such an incredible pile of... nope, can't say that. Every single one of your points is wrong, from beginning to end. None of the trial mechs has a weapon loadout that is capable of effectively combating and equal-weight, properly equipped mech. They don't even meet the requirements for the roles that you seem to be assigning to them, which are not appropriate to the state of this game. What in the world do we need cavary mechs for? None of the maps is big enough for it to matter!

The big thing you seem to be missing is that, for the most part, trial mech PUGs are fighting founder premades; the fact that your strategy "works" is not a comment on your skill, but a reflection of the GIMP nature of your opponents' mechs, and I can only imagine that you are in denial so that you don't have to face up to the fact that you obviously have no clue what you are doing.

Using the Trial Awesome I had 5 kills in 3 matches Including a 3 LRM15 toting Atlas D-DC and a 4 LRM15 toting Awesome. True it isn't easy for a Boot to pull it off, but I know my way around a Missile boat, this Awesome could use a few extra tons of ammo, but for money grinding it is... Awesome.

Cavalry Mechs are those Mechs that are capable of moving from one hot spot to the next aiding and assisting their team where needed. The Dragon, Cicada & Jenners are superb Cav Mechs.

The Italic is for pointing out that you do not know who you are talking to, nor what he has been doing for the last few years. Seriously.

[Codejack]

Paladin1, on 01 November 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

So no proof, just personal experience on your part to "prove" that you're right. Good God you're dense.

Oh, btw, you just proved my original point, you can't grasp why the trial `Mechs are BASELINE designs even when you know that they are just that and you even said so yourself. Remember, "None of the trial mechs has a weapon loadout that is capable of effectively combating and equal-weight, properly equipped mech." Simply put, the trials are the baseline from which you build. The custom rides we unlock and tweak in the `Mechlab are UPGRADES.

UPGRADE > BASELINE do you understand this? The UPGRADED version can't be the BASELINE, otherwise you wind up with power creep.

"Baseline" implies that they have some kind of focus in mind, some role that needs filling; what, exactly, is the role that those mechs are supposed to fill? The only one that even comes close is the Awesome, although as an assault fire support mech, it is pathetic. The others are just there to be targets for people with real mechs, and all of your protestations to the contrary won't change the FACT that they have intentionally made the default mechs suboptimal.

Of course we are supposed to customize them! That doesn't mean that the normal ones have to be useless, though.

[Joseph Mallan]

Codejack, on 01 November 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

"Baseline" implies that they have some kind of focus in mind, some role that needs filling; what, exactly, is the role that those mechs are supposed to fill? The only one that even comes close is the Awesome, although as an assault fire support mech, it is pathetic. The others are just there to be targets for people with real mechs, and all of your protestations to the contrary won't change the FACT that they have intentionally made the default mechs suboptimal.

Of course we are supposed to customize them! That doesn't mean that the normal ones have to be useless, though.

You know... You sound like I did back in my TT days. I had modified every Mech/Tank/Fighter In every TRO. Then I dropped in a few games using the Trial Mechs (cause they are the same as the ones in the TRO), I had fun. lots of it. I learned a few tricks and I repeat had fun.

Telling folks what to do and what not to use is a bit selfish sir. Let everyone find out for themselves what Mechs they will like and want to use. running a trial Mech gives you a feel for how it will work for you and allow you to think about how you might make it better when you buy your own.

[ZX3 EBDA]

Sug, on 31 October 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

As a pugger, I beg you guys, please stop using the Awesome trial mech. You are just hurting your team

I know it's the biggest mech, but bigger does not always equal better. It's just awful:

1) Huge torso hit boxes.
2) Relatively light torso armor.
3) It's SLOW!
4) It counts as an assault mech (80 tons). So the other team will most likely get an Atlas(100 tons) to balance out the teams.
5) Only 12 shots of LRM ammo. So after a minute of firing, you're reduced to a giant slow target with 2 large lasers....

When I see an Awesome on the other team I giggle and rub my hands together with glee.

When there's one or, god forbid, multiple Awesomes on my team, I cry.

Please, please, please. Choose anything else. Try out the Raven and do some scouting. It will help your team much more than driving a free kill like the Awesome.

Wait until I rebuild my laser boat on an awesome platform. I eat atlas's.

[Joseph Mallan]

Be warned ZX3, the Awesome has bad hit boxes for the head. It's low positioning makes aiming center mass more likely to get a head shot. After that... The laser Awesome is a sweet ride!

[ZX3 EBDA]

Joseph Mallan, on 01 November 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

Be warned ZX3, the Awesome has bad hit boxes for the head. It's low positioning makes aiming center mass more likely to get a head shot. After that... The laser Awesome is a sweet ride!

Most mechs that face me are not alive long enough to hit me but I have had my fair share of getting headshot by guass kittys.

My previous laser boat was this

4 Medium lasers
2 Medium pulse lasers
1 large pulse laser
43 Heat sinks.
42 points of damage per alpha.
3-4 alpha's before I over heat and if I do overheat it cools down and powers up within 3-5 seconds.

Edited by ZX3 EBDA, 01 November 2012 - 11:11 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Codejack, on 01 November 2012 - 10:24 AM, said:

Wow, I have never seen such an incredible pile of... nope, can't say that. Every single one of your points is wrong, from beginning to end. None of the trial mechs has a weapon loadout that is capable of effectively combating and equal-weight, properly equipped mech. They don't even meet the requirements for the roles that you seem to be assigning to them, which are not appropriate to the state of this game. What in the world do we need cavary mechs for? None of the maps is big enough for it to matter!

The big thing you seem to be missing is that, for the most part, trial mech PUGs are fighting founder premades; the fact that your strategy "works" is not a comment on your skill, but a reflection of the GIMP nature of your opponents' mechs, and I can only imagine that you are in denial so that you don't have to face up to the fact that you obviously have no clue what you are doing.

The odd part is that I feel you are the one that is wrong.

Raven works fine and has alot of useable firepower. The Lg. Laser gives it extended range sniping ability and for in close work you have medium lasers and an SRM6 which can do considerable damage. It is also a small target and has a decent amount of armor. It isn't designed to go toe-to-toe but works excellent if you stay on the fringes plinking away with the Lg. laser then when the enemy gets engaged heavily with your team, flirting in and out of the enemy distracting, harrassing and taking shots of opportunity.

The Centurion AL is very nice. Lots of LRMs so you can fire them even when you don't have the best target. However the best use is in direct fire mode where you can pepper the enemy with LRMs, while engaging them with your Large Laser or better yet, getting to the 225-250m point where you can use you medium lasers as well. The stock build isn't even really too far off my custom build to be honest.

The Dragon, well that is the one I think kind of sucks. It just doesn't have enough firepower and splitting the Medium Lasers between two different crosshairs sucks.

The Awesome however is again excellent. As I mentioned before it is very newbie friendly. Lock target, fire LRM when LRMs are gone you have exactly 2 weapons to worry about (discounting the small laser) both on the same crosshair and has enough heatsinks to mostly keep them cool. Also how you play this mech makes alot of difference. It is best used like the Centurion, in direct fire mode. Wait till the enemy is about 400m out then alternate between LRMs and the Large Lasers until dead. If you manage your shots and aren't flushing your LRMs at some enemy you can't even see 1000m away you actually have a decent amount of ammo. These play best at midrange, just behind your Atlases and Hunchbacks but in front of your Catapults.

In the end, aside from the Dragon, they all work fine and really aren't massively outclassed by custom mechs. As I mention in a previous post, rather they outclassed by experienced pilots using custom mechs. There is a big difference here.

[RazorFace]

If I had to choose a trial mech to play with and only a trial mech, i would choose the dragon-1n. I like this mech because it has this one thing I crave over all else and that is mobility, after the heavy mechs everything is too slow, for me anyway.

I still chose to get out of it as fast as possible and got myself a jenner, which I then tricked out with two med pulse lasers and 4 small pulse lasers with three double heat sinks to allow me to alpha strike like three times in a row if needed and 161 armor and then turned around and got all the basic skills and upgrades.

There is no single trial mech that can stand up to it. First I take their arms off, then I stay at their back(sometimes requires a dog fight) and hammer them with all I got left I still spot even with all that, manage sometimes upwards of 16-17cbills off of that alone in many battles.

Personally I see a big difference in the community from what I am going to call 'release' to now. Players are becoming more skilled.

The trial mechs are good for one thing and one thing only, afk and just acting stupid like it don't matter, because it doesn't, and I can't blame people for EXPLOITING, which I am telling you(Piranha) it seems like it was entirely intentional by you to make the game this way. I propose instead of trial mechs they just give every new player a commando, the real thing though, not some trial bull, they can upgrade and all kinds of stuff, but when they go to sell it, it is worth no C-bills, this will get them out of it quickly, yes make them pay for ammo, make them pay for half of thier repairs. And there you go problem solved.

A mech that new players can work with a bit to figure things out, WAY less people AFK(botting), and you people(Piranha) make a ton of new people really happy and want to stay and play a while. That is a WIN-WIN-WIN scenario. "Win cubed"

In the end I can make a Dragon-1N work for me, I can pull down about 250 damage per match on average, that would be extremely good if I had another competent person operating a mech at my side.

Sorry, I can't talk about trial mechs without throwing that thing about the solution to the bots in there, I think over all this game would benefit greatly from removing trial mech altogether. You would think they had some common sense and would just have anticipated that free credits like that would be a bad thing.

[Squidhead Jax]

Eh. The particular awesome in the Trial queue now is one of the less gimped stock designs.

Poor -8Q... *sniffle*

[Paladin1]

Squidhead Jax, on 01 November 2012 - 11:49 AM, said:

Eh. The particular awesome in the Trial queue now is one of the less gimped stock designs.

Poor -8Q... *sniffle*

Yeah, I absolutely love the 8Q in TT, but in MWO the fear that PPCs inspired just doesn't translate over. I'm honestly glad that the Warhammer and Marauder didn't make it in, I don't think I could bear watching people mess with those designs. Besides, can you imagine the amount of rage that a `Mech armed with twin PPCs, twin MLs and an AC/5 but only packing 16 SHS would create? Talk about crying the blues.

[KingCobra]

To the OP NO WAY DUDE the Awesome=Awesome for a trial deal with it.

Edited by KingCobra, 01 November 2012 - 11:58 AM.