19 replies to this topic

[Maxxinator]

In AT1:Battletech, while you move the torso in the direction you shoot, using the mouse, you could further modify where you shoot, or "aim". I feel this puts joystick users at a strong disadvantage. Mechwarrior 4 was different. You aimed only in the direction you were facing. How do you guys feel about the situation? I also posted this thread on MekTek.net, but there are probably more people here on this thread. (I am Chromehounds96)

I am referring to a "floating" arm reticule, like in MW3 or AT1:Battletech.

Edited by Maxxinator, 07 April 2012 - 01:52 PM.

[Exilyth]

Is this poll about mouse aiming (using the mouse to aim) or assisted aiming (when near the enemy, the crosshair snaps to the enemy)?

Edited by Exilyth, 06 April 2012 - 03:50 PM.

[VeiledMalice]

Joystick users are, by default, at something of a disadvantage versus mouse users because of the inherent speed and precision of the mouse. Aiming and firing are both faster and smoother because you get to use your fingers (fine manipulators) instead of your entire hand (gross manipulator).

Now, I'm not coming down on joystick controls, there are people out there that can rock that control platform, but you need to realize that while playing up the "simulation" aspects of Mechwarrior, while a noble pursuit, you are sacrificing quality of control.

Edited by VeiledMalice, 06 April 2012 - 04:02 PM.

[Steamroller Stig]

first off the torso already laggs behind the arms, secondly what will torso twist be? this game will be stupidly clumsy if we cant torso twist while turning.

Edited by Steamroller Stig, 06 April 2012 - 03:55 PM.

[Morashtak]

Since we are going to have to time the cross-hairs and their convergence we'll have to wait and see how much, if any, joystick users will be at a disadvantage.

The days of snap aiming are all but over with this game, methinks.

[Trevnor]

Actually, this doesn't really affect some joystick users as one would think. My joystick actually as a secondary joystick "hat" on the top of it, in easy reach of my thumb. That's what I map the arms/pilot look aim point too. Full 8 directions. Up for up, down for down, left and right. Pretty good.

[empath]

...

Er, you DO realize this is merely implementing play mechanics (move legs in one direction while twisting torso in another) that have existed in BattleTech since before computer games were a viable medium?

It simply does so in a manner that enough people felt was a more intuitive way.

Look at it like this, most 'in cockpit cutscenes' and pictures of 'Mech cockpits show two joysticks as primary controls. Look upon the keyboard movement controls as one joystick, and the mouse aiming controls as the other joystick.

It should also be noted that this sort of dual-stick movement and aiming control system has been around for a fair while - take the Robotron: 2084 arcade game...

...from 1982.

[Solis Obscuri]

From the sounds of it, the mouse is a default control device already, though I think joysticks will be supported as well.

Notably, I think many joystick users will be utilizing rudder pedals or similar in order to expand their control over their 'mech.

[Fetladral]

If you have a decent joystick I don't think theres much of a difference especially if you have a HOTAS (hands on throttle and stick) and I've been looking at newer joysticks most have at least 11 buttons so you can map all of the more used controls to the joystick.

[Minatorc]

Dont see this as an issue.
Aiming and movement is covered pretty well in Dev Blog 5. You'd move with the joystick and aim (torso twist) with the mouse.

[Hangfire]

I'm of the 'J/stick for steering and mouse for twisting' persuasion myself, a MW3 type floating reticule is fine as long as I can define a key (preferably a mouse button) to alternate between 'twist' and 'floating reticule)

[Nik Van Rhijn]

It's more the MW4 style reticule it seems to me rather than the MW3 floating reticule.

[Motionless]

Maxxinator, on 06 April 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

Mechwarrior 4 was different.

Set the mouse to control your torso and you can now aim with it. Do you mean a floating reticule? Because I think we have a floating one for our arms and a fixed one for our torso in MWO.

Edited by Motionless, 06 April 2012 - 05:20 PM.

[Emily Weiston]

In MW4, the mouse had a much higher advantage over joysticks. Joystick movement wasn't as fluid as the mouse. I'm using a CH Combatstick, and it's a great stick, but it's definately as good at snap on aiming as a mouse. However, this seems to be a moot point considering MWO has two reticles that need to converge to the center in order to fire where you aimed at. The unfair advantage over the mouse can also be fixed if mechs have a set torso speed twist... We'll see.

Personally, I feel that auto aim for any kind of control scheme would give that specific control scheme an unfair advantage. I never liked it in Call of Duty, and I still don't like it today. If someone else is better at aiming then you, then that's a fact we should simply accept. I want a game where the good players are good because they're very skilled, not because of use of auto aim features.

[A6PackofToucans]

I guess I never realized until talking about it with my teammates that I have a rather unique way of playing mechwarrior since MW3.

I use my left hand to use the joystick to pilot where I want my mech to go with a throttle slider to control speed, also with the left hand. But I diable the Y axis of my Joystick and use the mouse to control my mechs torso twist for aiming with the right hand. Works really well for me, but both hands can get pretty busy sometimes! And I need three hands for when I had to type in commands lol.

I don't feel there should be any kind of aiming assist that automatically puts the weapons onto the enemy mech, that's not skill.. However, if there was a Targeting computer I could install in my mech that would provide some visual reference info only on where I need to lead my weapons to hit a moving target at long range then I'd like that option. But it would be up to me to decide on where to put my aimpoint and up to me when I should fire, plus the disadvantage of a heavy targeting computer on my mech lol.

[SquareSphere]

I don't think it'll be too much of a problem considering how the MWO reticle works.

MWO has the arms and torso weapons tracking independently. So lets say your arms weapons might be faster to aim, your torso weapons won't be lined up. Now if you're slower to aim your weapons your reticles will be more in sync, hence more efficiency in aiming.

[A6PackofToucans]

I agree, there's a whole new targeting system in this sim we've never seen before that changes the whole targeting dynamic, we'll just have to wait and see how it works out.

[GaussDragon]

Emily Weiston, on 07 April 2012 - 01:43 AM, said:

In MW4, the mouse had a much higher advantage over joysticks. Joystick movement wasn't as fluid as the mouse. I'm using a CH Combatstick, and it's a great stick, but it's definately as good at snap on aiming as a mouse. However, this seems to be a moot point considering MWO has two reticles that need to converge to the center in order to fire where you aimed at. The unfair advantage over the mouse can also be fixed if mechs have a set torso speed twist... We'll see.

If anything, the opposite was true. I became good with both the mouse and the joystick but used the joystick for most of my time playing the game. Due to its precision, the mouse will always have the advantage but the floating reticule in MW3 made the disparity greater. The fixed reticule system in MW4 actually brought mouse and joystick closer to parity. This is not only because of the fixed reticule itself but also the acceleration mechanics; they were really clumsy. Trying to settle a very precise shot was difficult in MW4 because the sensitivity was low when moving the crosshair/reticule short distances but as soon as you started trying to aim somewhere too far off or track a fast moving target, it accelerated dramatically. For minor adjustments, I often just flicked my wrist a bit in order to twist my torso a nudge instead of trying to clumsily move the crosshair over another area and risk being at the mercy of the awful crosshair/reticule acceleration.

The trick to making in difficult shots in MW4 with both the mouse and joystick was not to try and actively track your intended target area like the CT. What you had to do was lead ahead of what you were aiming at and as your weapons recycled, you basically slowed your tracking speed and let the target's CT move into your crosshair and as long as your timing was good (and your aim of course), you could make the shot.

VeiledMalice, on 06 April 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

Joystick users are, by default, at something of a disadvantage versus mouse users because of the inherent speed and precision of the mouse. Aiming and firing are both faster and smoother because you get to use your fingers (fine manipulators) instead of your entire hand (gross manipulator).

Now, I'm not coming down on joystick controls, there are people out there that can rock that control platform, but you need to realize that while playing up the "simulation" aspects of Mechwarrior, while a noble pursuit, you are sacrificing quality of control.

This. If you prefer to use the joystick you just have to take it for granted that you're going to be at a disadvantage against the mouse. This is similar in vein to the FFP vs 3PV argument; people want to use FFP but at the same time don't want to be at the disadvantage against people who would rather use 3PV. In this instance, the prevalence of and preference for the mouse obviously precludes the option of excluding it as a control scheme lol. Though with the way some people on these forums think, I genuinely would not be surprised if I saw a few people suggesting that this game should be joystick-only /facepalm.

Edited by GaussDragon, 07 April 2012 - 12:03 PM.

[Giftmacher]

A6PackofToucans, on 07 April 2012 - 05:52 AM, said:

I guess I never realized until talking about it with my teammates that I have a rather unique way of playing mechwarrior since MW3.

I use my left hand to use the joystick to pilot where I want my mech to go with a throttle slider to control speed, also with the left hand. But I diable the Y axis of my Joystick and use the mouse to control my mechs torso twist for aiming with the right hand. Works really well for me, but both hands can get pretty busy sometimes! And I need three hands for when I had to type in commands lol.

I don't feel there should be any kind of aiming assist that automatically puts the weapons onto the enemy mech, that's not skill.. However, if there was a Targeting computer I could install in my mech that would provide some visual reference info only on where I need to lead my weapons to hit a moving target at long range then I'd like that option. But it would be up to me to decide on where to put my aimpoint and up to me when I should fire, plus the disadvantage of a heavy targeting computer on my mech lol.

I used to do this, feels more mechwarrior-y some how. I can't remember which MW game had arm aiming separate from the torso twist, but in that I used to use the stick's third axis to twist the torso and the mouse to control the arms.

[Maxxinator]

I prefer the the fixed reticule over the floating one for this reason. I am a Joystick user because my bed is my couch, and the mouse doesn't work all that well on it. I would hate to be "punished" for it.