We had this discussion all through CB as well. I think the "middle ground" may have been that in the hands of a skilled pilot most trial mechs were solid, but with their heat issues they maybe weren't as suited to the new player just learning the game. I don't know about the current crop of trials, but the Jenner and HB used to cook themselves very easily. Again not something an experienced pilot couldn't handle, but maybe not the best learning mech. The current trial awesome and centurion sound decent enough tho.
Now to get this sort of back on topic, I'll ask again do you get salvage bonus if you lose the match? IIRC from CB you don't, but wanted to make sure.
-Accident
1
Performance is rewarded - Mechwarrior Style
Started by Vlad Ward, Oct 31 2012 05:02 PM
100 replies to this topic
#42
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- 2,411 posts
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Posted 31 October 2012 - 07:24 PM
Nope, salvage is the the reward for winning.
#43
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- The Merciless
- 3,097 posts
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Posted 31 October 2012 - 07:31 PM
Right. Dead men can't take anything off the field.
#44
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- FP Veteran - Beta 1
- 190 posts
Member
Posted 31 October 2012 - 07:34 PM
Accident, on 31 October 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:
We had this discussion all through CB as well. I think the "middle ground" may have been that in the hands of a skilled pilot most trial mechs were solid, but with their heat issues they maybe weren't as suited to the new player just learning the game. I don't know about the current crop of trials, but the Jenner and HB used to cook themselves very easily. Again not something an experienced pilot couldn't handle, but maybe not the best learning mech. The current trial awesome and centurion sound decent enough tho.
Now to get this sort of back on topic, I'll ask again do you get salvage bonus if you lose the match? IIRC from CB you don't, but wanted to make sure.
-Accident
Now to get this sort of back on topic, I'll ask again do you get salvage bonus if you lose the match? IIRC from CB you don't, but wanted to make sure.
-Accident
Well the AL is ok for heat and so is the Dragon. I know because I've taken both for a spin.
#45
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- 115 posts
Member
Posted 31 October 2012 - 07:40 PM
LogicSol, on 31 October 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:
Nope, salvage is the the reward for winning.
Ok cool that makes sense and is how I remember it being. It sorta seems like a lot of potential wasted effort then to run around trying to legshot everyone if you then have to win as well to get the bonus. I mean I get what the original poster is trying to say, and obviously from those 2 screenshots he is able to make it work, but I don't see it being a standard viable tactic unless you're in a premade. And if thats the case then you're probably doing ok moneywise regardless just through a good win ratio.
Still it'd be nice if PGI spelled out some of these bonuses in a tutorial for new players.
-Accident
Edit: Good to hear the new trial mechs are a little more reasonable heatwise
Edited by Accident, 31 October 2012 - 07:42 PM.
#46
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- 2,411 posts
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Posted 31 October 2012 - 07:42 PM
Not a video,(fraps knocked my FPS down to 4, bleh) but here is a screen shot of a drop I just did with the AWS-8t trial mech. pug drop in frozen.
Perfectly serviceable.
Perfectly serviceable.
#47
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- Knight Errant
- 1,073 posts
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- LocationOutreach
Posted 31 October 2012 - 07:47 PM
Life is cheap. Battlemechs aren't.
#48
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- 310 posts
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Posted 31 October 2012 - 07:47 PM
Stone Wall, on 31 October 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:
nah bro. I signed on today and played for the first time in weeks and killed someone with a stock Jenner. keep practicing and you might get there some day.
There is no trial Jenner. Just saying.
In any case, I don't think anyone disagress that, if they had the chance, there are customisations that would improve the performance of the trial mechs. They're not completely useless, but they're certainly not as good as a custom mech, are they?
#49
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- 368 posts
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- LocationOntario, Canada
Posted 31 October 2012 - 07:48 PM
So does this mean LRMs shouldn't exist in BT? Only the worst of pilots use them? Why was there only 300 XP awarded for the win in one match but 500 XP for the other? Why is there C-Bill + XP reward for component destruction? Shouldn't there be a headshot reward? What about a concentrated damage to a vital area reward?
In both cases I notice the win actually brings the most C-Bills. I'd expect salvage to offer up a reward, it only makes sense, but the high damage done may have helped your team kill the other 5, giving that win.
In any war, dropping targets is the main priority. I'm all for salvaging, but damage to the targets makes it more likely to get them down. If things were to go too far towards rewarding players for sitting on the sidelines & sniping then everyone will do it. Someone's gotta go in & get their hands dirty. Everyone can't be snipers, getting headshots & saving their own skin. A brawler may have to tear off an arm to take out an AC/20 that may destroy his own mech or get the "ears" off the Streakcat to stop it doing more damage to the team than what may be done to said Streakcat.
Large amounts of damage arguably help to prevent the loss of mechs & minimize damage to them on your own side. It's the same thing as salvaging. An efficient kill is best but not always possible, & how do you decide whether the sacrifices that may have been made to make that kill were worth it? You'd have to subtract
the damage you took. The game does that. So that may end up meaning your low damage done has left you at a loss 'cuz you took more than you dealt. You lost more money fixing yourself than you gained from any salvage. Maybe maybe maybe.
Disabling targets is what a "Warrior" does. Sometimes a little pain is needed, sometimes a lot. It's why we're here.
I'd also like to point out that in Logic & Vlad's screen shots, the 2nd highest scoring player in all 3 matches was in a trial. I've done alright in them without even trying sometimes. I get slaughtered in my custom Jenner sometimes, either due to stupidity, carelessness, tiredness, drunkeness or just being outclassed by the other team as a whole to such a degree that I couldn't compensate for the hand I was dealt. Point is, the size of mech, or even the kind of mech comes in somewhere under the importance of a pilots competence. Matches should be made according to play time or XP first & the kind of mech given a lesser priority. Experienced, competent pilots, just do better. Even if we lose the match, I still do well.
I hate LRMs by the way & yeah I think anything that locks on doesn't need a pilot in the first place. The mech could be programmed to do just as good a job with the Coconut Monkey in the seat AFAIC.
In both cases I notice the win actually brings the most C-Bills. I'd expect salvage to offer up a reward, it only makes sense, but the high damage done may have helped your team kill the other 5, giving that win.
In any war, dropping targets is the main priority. I'm all for salvaging, but damage to the targets makes it more likely to get them down. If things were to go too far towards rewarding players for sitting on the sidelines & sniping then everyone will do it. Someone's gotta go in & get their hands dirty. Everyone can't be snipers, getting headshots & saving their own skin. A brawler may have to tear off an arm to take out an AC/20 that may destroy his own mech or get the "ears" off the Streakcat to stop it doing more damage to the team than what may be done to said Streakcat.
Large amounts of damage arguably help to prevent the loss of mechs & minimize damage to them on your own side. It's the same thing as salvaging. An efficient kill is best but not always possible, & how do you decide whether the sacrifices that may have been made to make that kill were worth it? You'd have to subtract
the damage you took. The game does that. So that may end up meaning your low damage done has left you at a loss 'cuz you took more than you dealt. You lost more money fixing yourself than you gained from any salvage. Maybe maybe maybe.
Disabling targets is what a "Warrior" does. Sometimes a little pain is needed, sometimes a lot. It's why we're here.
I'd also like to point out that in Logic & Vlad's screen shots, the 2nd highest scoring player in all 3 matches was in a trial. I've done alright in them without even trying sometimes. I get slaughtered in my custom Jenner sometimes, either due to stupidity, carelessness, tiredness, drunkeness or just being outclassed by the other team as a whole to such a degree that I couldn't compensate for the hand I was dealt. Point is, the size of mech, or even the kind of mech comes in somewhere under the importance of a pilots competence. Matches should be made according to play time or XP first & the kind of mech given a lesser priority. Experienced, competent pilots, just do better. Even if we lose the match, I still do well.
I hate LRMs by the way & yeah I think anything that locks on doesn't need a pilot in the first place. The mech could be programmed to do just as good a job with the Coconut Monkey in the seat AFAIC.
Edited by Freeride Forever, 31 October 2012 - 08:09 PM.
#50
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- The Merciless
- 3,097 posts
Member
Posted 31 October 2012 - 07:49 PM
Accident, on 31 October 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:
Ok cool that makes sense and is how I remember it being. It sorta seems like a lot of potential wasted effort then to run around trying to legshot everyone if you then have to win as well to get the bonus. I mean I get what the original poster is trying to say, and obviously from those 2 screenshots he is able to make it work, but I don't see it being a standard viable tactic unless you're in a premade. And if thats the case then you're probably doing ok moneywise regardless just through a good win ratio.
Still it'd be nice if PGI spelled out some of these bonuses in a tutorial for new players.
-Accident
Edit: Good to hear the new trial mechs are a little more reasonable heatwise
Though I am part of a Merc corps that I drop with fairly often, both of those screenshots were actually taken in PUG matches.
You're right to bring up that losing will negate any work you put into racking up Salvage bonuses, but I'm honestly not sure it'd be that much harder to aim for legs than it would be to aim for torsos. The problem right now is that players simply don't know that they should aim low, and thus it's hard to convince a PUG to go along with such a strategy. You brought this up as well, and I agree that it would be nice if we had something like an "MWO Dead Eye" to show us what we should be doing.
I just think it's important that people know that this system is in the game, and it does work properly if players know to use it.
#51
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- 2,411 posts
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Posted 31 October 2012 - 07:49 PM
Lavrenti, on 31 October 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:
There is no trial Jenner. Just saying.
In any case, I don't think anyone disagress that, if they had the chance, there are customisations that would improve the performance of the trial mechs. They're not completely useless, but they're certainly not as good as a custom mech, are they?
In his defense, we had a jenner as a trial mech for quite some time, and the stock one you buy is the same thing.
#52
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- 310 posts
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Posted 31 October 2012 - 07:50 PM
Accident, on 31 October 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:
It sorta seems like a lot of potential wasted effort then to run around trying to legshot everyone if you then have to win as well to get the bonus. I mean I get what the original poster is trying to say, and obviously from those 2 screenshots he is able to make it work, but I don't see it being a standard viable tactic unless you're in a premade. And if thats the case then you're probably doing ok moneywise regardless just through a good win ratio.
Still it'd be nice if PGI spelled out some of these bonuses in a tutorial for new players.
I agree with all of this. New players, and especially new players in PUGs, are unlikely to see the salvage bonus. A PUG has a hard enough time winning, let alone carefully sniping cockpits - personally I'm happy if I manage to hit another mech at all.
#53
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- Bad Company
- 9 posts
Rookie
Posted 31 October 2012 - 08:29 PM
Accident, on 31 October 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:
We had this discussion all through CB as well. I think the "middle ground" may have been that in the hands of a skilled pilot most trial mechs were solid, but with their heat issues they maybe weren't as suited to the new player just learning the game. I don't know about the current crop of trials, but the Jenner and HB used to cook themselves very easily. Again not something an experienced pilot couldn't handle, but maybe not the best learning mech. The current trial awesome and centurion sound decent enough tho.
Now to get this sort of back on topic, I'll ask again do you get salvage bonus if you lose the match? IIRC from CB you don't, but wanted to make sure.
-Accident
Now to get this sort of back on topic, I'll ask again do you get salvage bonus if you lose the match? IIRC from CB you don't, but wanted to make sure.
-Accident
I've noted that the trial, and non-trial, mechs may have pre-set weapon groupings that can help control the heat if used correctly. As is known, the issue is the lack of tutorials in game(has anyone checked out the ones on the launch screen). Getting the info right in front of players on the rewards system will go a ways to changing how they play in match. I'm getting tired of typing "don't kill him, capture the base for more cash" in vain.
#54
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- 28 posts
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- LocationTexas
Posted 31 October 2012 - 08:41 PM
nice tips on how to get more salvage but ill prolly still love takeing out my enemys meanest weapons first nice way to make any enemy a minor annoyance when it used to be a big friggin problem
on another note trial mechs may not be the best mechs out there but they are not bad just play them learn how to use them then get some assists a few kills and not a be an *** for afk c-bill farming which has boned my team more times than i like to say
on another note trial mechs may not be the best mechs out there but they are not bad just play them learn how to use them then get some assists a few kills and not a be an *** for afk c-bill farming which has boned my team more times than i like to say
#55
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- Big Brother
- 114 posts
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Posted 31 October 2012 - 09:13 PM
Vlad Ward, on 31 October 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:
Kill the Meat, Save the Metal.
Trial mechs do not earn salvage bonuses. Thus, on your "best case" a trial mech, assuming he could even do 650+ damage and score 5 kills, would earn 99k cbills. Conversely on a suicide death, the same trial would earn 65k in 1/4 the time. THIS is the problem with how performance bonuses work.
The people complaining are rarely founders with bonuses winning matches.
#56
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- Heavy Lifter
- 1,070 posts
Member
Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:17 PM
Well... I did the grind for 3 days to buy my 1st mech.
I can't make any money owning a mech.
One game I'll do well and score 150K, the next game I'll have 2 AFKs on the team vs 2 jenner exploiters and 2 atlases vs a trial mech force and wipe that cash out completely. About every 10 games I am maybe +10K cbills after owning a mech.
Anyways some thoughts
3 of the 4 mechs are terribly bad for what you'll mostly be facing.
-Centurion is the only useable mech, because it can manuver while also hurting targets,
-Raven is not fast enough to live like a Jenner through close range combat.
-Dragon has terrible weapon systems (even in the table top it is a bad mech) *how many people BUY a dragon and run it as the favorite?*
-Non-Awesome version of the Awesome is Jenner / LRM fodder. The armor stacking compared to table top means 2 Large Lasers do not have to be respected unless you are on the verge of dying.
Sure every couple of games you'll run into people who are also piloting trial mechs and have a semi-decent fight.
However, when you end up in mixed fight of veteran modded mechs and trial mechs, usually you'll have a team stacked heavily with founders on one side, who simply charge right in and leave everything a smoking ruin.
I thought things would be better owning a mech, they are not. Why? Because the trial mechs suck, pub stompers, and crap match maker. When the trial mechs make up the bulk of your team, you are going to have a 100K+ repair/rearm bill.
What do I mostly see in the field?
Armored and fast Jenners
Fast Streak SRM Commandos
Atlases
Modded Cats (mostly Lrms and medium pulses)
Trial Mechs
These should be the trial mechs
JR7-F: (replace Raven) It won't take new people long to learn how not to get shot by watching what the net-code exploters do. They may not be able to hit anything, but they won't die spotting targets,
HBK-4P: (Replace Centurion) Point your guns at a target and Alpha Strike. A new person can do that.
CPLT-C1 (replace the Not-a-Real-Awesome AWS-8T) Cats are way harder to take down then the "I am a giant wall that you can't ever miss from behind". They'll learn to jump around in battle to avoid damage by watching the other Cat exploiters
It might take a little more effort to pubstomp with those trial mechs in play.
Oh, and Keep the stupid Dragon as a trial mech I guess... think of it as a community service to prevent people from getting angry for buying such a worthless mech. They won't after playing it a few times in trial. (also, why did you put that mech in the game right now if there is absolutely no economics considered in pub matches)
I can't make any money owning a mech.
One game I'll do well and score 150K, the next game I'll have 2 AFKs on the team vs 2 jenner exploiters and 2 atlases vs a trial mech force and wipe that cash out completely. About every 10 games I am maybe +10K cbills after owning a mech.
Anyways some thoughts
3 of the 4 mechs are terribly bad for what you'll mostly be facing.
-Centurion is the only useable mech, because it can manuver while also hurting targets,
-Raven is not fast enough to live like a Jenner through close range combat.
-Dragon has terrible weapon systems (even in the table top it is a bad mech) *how many people BUY a dragon and run it as the favorite?*
-Non-Awesome version of the Awesome is Jenner / LRM fodder. The armor stacking compared to table top means 2 Large Lasers do not have to be respected unless you are on the verge of dying.
Sure every couple of games you'll run into people who are also piloting trial mechs and have a semi-decent fight.
However, when you end up in mixed fight of veteran modded mechs and trial mechs, usually you'll have a team stacked heavily with founders on one side, who simply charge right in and leave everything a smoking ruin.
I thought things would be better owning a mech, they are not. Why? Because the trial mechs suck, pub stompers, and crap match maker. When the trial mechs make up the bulk of your team, you are going to have a 100K+ repair/rearm bill.
What do I mostly see in the field?
Armored and fast Jenners
Fast Streak SRM Commandos
Atlases
Modded Cats (mostly Lrms and medium pulses)
Trial Mechs
These should be the trial mechs
JR7-F: (replace Raven) It won't take new people long to learn how not to get shot by watching what the net-code exploters do. They may not be able to hit anything, but they won't die spotting targets,
HBK-4P: (Replace Centurion) Point your guns at a target and Alpha Strike. A new person can do that.
CPLT-C1 (replace the Not-a-Real-Awesome AWS-8T) Cats are way harder to take down then the "I am a giant wall that you can't ever miss from behind". They'll learn to jump around in battle to avoid damage by watching the other Cat exploiters
It might take a little more effort to pubstomp with those trial mechs in play.
Oh, and Keep the stupid Dragon as a trial mech I guess... think of it as a community service to prevent people from getting angry for buying such a worthless mech. They won't after playing it a few times in trial. (also, why did you put that mech in the game right now if there is absolutely no economics considered in pub matches)
Edited by LORD ORION, 31 October 2012 - 10:19 PM.
#57
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- Go-cho
- 265 posts
Member
- LocationCincinnati, OH
Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:24 PM
I don't care about salvage.
I blow mechs up and it's fun as hell.
I blow mechs up and it's fun as hell.
#58
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- 2,137 posts
Member
Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:27 PM
pursang, on 31 October 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:
Must be nice to have a premium account + Founders 'Mechs.
Most new players don't.
Most new players don't.
I didn't see a Founder bonus there, and anyone can buy premium, so I don't understand what you're whining about?
#59
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- Star Colonel V
- 307 posts
Member
- LocationBotany Bay
Posted 31 October 2012 - 11:14 PM
Stone Wall, on 31 October 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:
This happened in the MW3 single player. You wanted to salvage the mechs. You didn't want to blow the mechs into a million pieces.
This philosophy can be traced all the way back to the original MechWarrior. I loved taking a Marauder or Warhammer and firing my PPCs right into the cockpits. Always negotiated for a higher salvage percentage than pay and made out like a bandit.
#60
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- 2,411 posts
Member
Posted 31 October 2012 - 11:14 PM
LORD ORION, on 31 October 2012 - 10:17 PM, said:
Well... I did the grind for 3 days to buy my 1st mech.
I can't make any money owning a mech.
One game I'll do well and score 150K, the next game I'll have 2 AFKs on the team vs 2 jenner exploiters and 2 atlases vs a trial mech force and wipe that cash out completely. About every 10 games I am maybe +10K cbills after owning a mech.
Anyways some thoughts
3 of the 4 mechs are terribly bad for what you'll mostly be facing.
-Centurion is the only useable mech, because it can manuver while also hurting targets,
-Raven is not fast enough to live like a Jenner through close range combat.
-Dragon has terrible weapon systems (even in the table top it is a bad mech) *how many people BUY a dragon and run it as the favorite?*
-Non-Awesome version of the Awesome is Jenner / LRM fodder. The armor stacking compared to table top means 2 Large Lasers do not have to be respected unless you are on the verge of dying.
Sure every couple of games you'll run into people who are also piloting trial mechs and have a semi-decent fight.
However, when you end up in mixed fight of veteran modded mechs and trial mechs, usually you'll have a team stacked heavily with founders on one side, who simply charge right in and leave everything a smoking ruin.
I thought things would be better owning a mech, they are not. Why? Because the trial mechs suck, pub stompers, and crap match maker. When the trial mechs make up the bulk of your team, you are going to have a 100K+ repair/rearm bill.
What do I mostly see in the field?
Armored and fast Jenners
Fast Streak SRM Commandos
Atlases
Modded Cats (mostly Lrms and medium pulses)
Trial Mechs
These should be the trial mechs
JR7-F: (replace Raven) It won't take new people long to learn how not to get shot by watching what the net-code exploters do. They may not be able to hit anything, but they won't die spotting targets,
HBK-4P: (Replace Centurion) Point your guns at a target and Alpha Strike. A new person can do that.
CPLT-C1 (replace the Not-a-Real-Awesome AWS-8T) Cats are way harder to take down then the "I am a giant wall that you can't ever miss from behind". They'll learn to jump around in battle to avoid damage by watching the other Cat exploiters
It might take a little more effort to pubstomp with those trial mechs in play.
Oh, and Keep the stupid Dragon as a trial mech I guess... think of it as a community service to prevent people from getting angry for buying such a worthless mech. They won't after playing it a few times in trial. (also, why did you put that mech in the game right now if there is absolutely no economics considered in pub matches)
I can't make any money owning a mech.
One game I'll do well and score 150K, the next game I'll have 2 AFKs on the team vs 2 jenner exploiters and 2 atlases vs a trial mech force and wipe that cash out completely. About every 10 games I am maybe +10K cbills after owning a mech.
Anyways some thoughts
3 of the 4 mechs are terribly bad for what you'll mostly be facing.
-Centurion is the only useable mech, because it can manuver while also hurting targets,
-Raven is not fast enough to live like a Jenner through close range combat.
-Dragon has terrible weapon systems (even in the table top it is a bad mech) *how many people BUY a dragon and run it as the favorite?*
-Non-Awesome version of the Awesome is Jenner / LRM fodder. The armor stacking compared to table top means 2 Large Lasers do not have to be respected unless you are on the verge of dying.
Sure every couple of games you'll run into people who are also piloting trial mechs and have a semi-decent fight.
However, when you end up in mixed fight of veteran modded mechs and trial mechs, usually you'll have a team stacked heavily with founders on one side, who simply charge right in and leave everything a smoking ruin.
I thought things would be better owning a mech, they are not. Why? Because the trial mechs suck, pub stompers, and crap match maker. When the trial mechs make up the bulk of your team, you are going to have a 100K+ repair/rearm bill.
What do I mostly see in the field?
Armored and fast Jenners
Fast Streak SRM Commandos
Atlases
Modded Cats (mostly Lrms and medium pulses)
Trial Mechs
These should be the trial mechs
JR7-F: (replace Raven) It won't take new people long to learn how not to get shot by watching what the net-code exploters do. They may not be able to hit anything, but they won't die spotting targets,
HBK-4P: (Replace Centurion) Point your guns at a target and Alpha Strike. A new person can do that.
CPLT-C1 (replace the Not-a-Real-Awesome AWS-8T) Cats are way harder to take down then the "I am a giant wall that you can't ever miss from behind". They'll learn to jump around in battle to avoid damage by watching the other Cat exploiters
It might take a little more effort to pubstomp with those trial mechs in play.
Oh, and Keep the stupid Dragon as a trial mech I guess... think of it as a community service to prevent people from getting angry for buying such a worthless mech. They won't after playing it a few times in trial. (also, why did you put that mech in the game right now if there is absolutely no economics considered in pub matches)
2 Things, What the heck are you running as a mech that only nets you 10k after repairs? My ES/DHS CN9-AL only costs 60k to repair totaled, and thats with ammo reloads.
Atlases, and anything with an XL are going to be expensive. I'd recommend you next mech be a medium.
The second thing is that trial mechs will rotate on about a weekly basis, you'll have new ones to play with all the time.
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