176 replies to this topic

[Voodoo Circus]

Lavrenti, on 31 October 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

The thing is that better communication is a force multiplier, independent of player skill. A PUG that can't use VOIP is likely to get stomped by a group that does, even if all the mechs and skill levels are the same. So skill isn't the only determining factor. Personally I think that the phases will be a day late and a dollar short, they won't completely fix the premade problem since it seems even a 4-man premade will wipe the floor with 8 randoms. Better VOIP and command tools might actually do more good than the phases.

The only problem is that they can use VOIP since the TS servers are public.They chose not to.

And the point of this gentleman's post is that the "premade problem" is actually Pugs getting killed by other Pugs and assuming they were defeated by a premade.
So the people raging about premades are actually getting theyr ***** handed to them by other Pugs.

As his data points out
people should chill a little with all de premade hatred

On another note I am 100% in favor of premade vs premade queue
I join a organized team to have a good fight and be tested, not to roll over players getting started

[FerretGR]

The VOIP needs to be integrated in-game.

[Lorcan Lladd]

FerretGR, on 31 October 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

The VOIP needs to be integrated in-game.

Addendum:
It needs to be implemented automatically for all players, not just Social groups.

[Lavrenti]

Voodoo Circus, on 31 October 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:

The only problem is that they can use VOIP since the TS servers are public.They chose not to.

No, they can't. If they did they wouldn't be a PUG, they would be a premade group.
I recognise the distinction may be too subtle for some, so put it this way: if you want to use a TS server, is it best to join the channel and create the group for the drop before or after you hit the 'Launch' button? I suggest that leaving it until after is probably too late for it to be effective, but that is what you're suggesting when you say PUGs can join a TS server. If on the other hand they do it before the drop, then they're not a group of randoms thrown together with 10 seconds before the game starts, are they?

Lorcan Lladd, on 31 October 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

Addendum:
It needs to be implemented automatically for all players, not just Social groups.

This, absolutely. There are lots of other things that could be done to improve coordination and teamwork, but this would be a big help.

[Yokaiko]

Still waiting for someone to come in and call the op a liar.

Eitherway good post, pretty much matches what I've been seeing, maybe 5 of 20 games are premades,.and that only during late euro/us time.

Ran 5 pugs this morning without seeing a premade at all.

[Digital Ninja]

The devs already plan to separate premades and PUGs anyway. The 5000 threads about it aren't going to make that go any faster. I wish people would just shut up about it. Even the ones trying to counter the whiners. All you giving them a serious response does is encourage them to keep moaning.

Edited by Digital Ninja, 31 October 2012 - 09:04 PM.

[Krivvan]

And to just to make one thing clear, I don't think the current system is just fine. I don't think it's ideal for PUGs to ever face premade groups of 8. The point of this thread was to show how the existence of premades itself is not the entire cause for all the steamrolls that you encounter.

Digital Ninja, on 31 October 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

All the majority of those screens prove is that you lost. Even if they did prove premades are frequent, posting them was pointless. The devs already plan to separate premades and PUGs anyway. This thread isn't going to make that go any faster.

Look again, the majority of the games were not against premades. I'm 'on your side'. Most of the losses are games I claim to be against pugs.

And just to nitpick, the majority of the screens are wins. =P

Edited by Krivvan, 31 October 2012 - 09:05 PM.

[Alexandrix]

premades dropping against pugs even once in any number of matches is just terrible game mechanics.

That being said,thanks for putting in the work and good job.

Edited by Alexandrix, 31 October 2012 - 09:06 PM.

[mattkachu]

Krivven, battle number 13. You were against a partial premade. If that picture says mattkachu, which i think it does (my resolution is so high and i tried zooming in the pics), Hovertank, and Aurias.

Yeah, sorry i didnt answer, my group nor i look at the chat most of the time because of my high resolution and most of the time the chat is full of sapm.

[Krivvan]

mattkachu, on 31 October 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

Krivven, battle number 13. You were against a partial premade. If that picture says mattkachu, which i think it does (my resolution is so high and i tried zooming in the pics), Hovertank, and Aurias.

Yeah, sorry i didnt answer, my group nor i look at the chat most of the time because of my high resolution and most of the time the chat is full of sapm.

The team did include mattkachu, Hovertank and Aurias. So my hunch was partially correct.

I assume you guys were the two Gausscats and the AC20 Cat?

[mattkachu]

Krivvan, on 31 October 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

The team did include mattkachu, Hovertank and Aurias. So my hunch was partially correct.

I assume you guys were the two Gausscats and the AC20 Cat?

i looked at the pic again, and xxxdeathxxx and peaceisalie(?) was also in my group at the time. So im thinking 6/8 were premade. I think only 1 of us (aurias had a raven, mattkachu and hover in atlas, death in a jenny, peace maybe in gausscat) I dont know about him because we ususally dont ask for build info before we drop. The pugs couldve been those 2 you spoke of

[Saevus]

How did you not run into my team? We need to stomp harder. Good post.

[Nekki Basara]

Krivvan, on 31 October 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

Although to be fair, there are groups that aren't the Goon Squad that have taken to doing it to an obnoxious level.

Thank you for pointing this out. Most of the time if you see more than a few squawks at the start, a few at the end and one or two when someone dies (on either side) then you aren't fighting Goons.

Overall our experience matches yours, premades are rare.

[Voodoo Circus]

Lavrenti, on 31 October 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

No, they can't. If they did they wouldn't be a PUG, they would be a premade group.
I recognise the distinction may be too subtle for some, so put it this way: if you want to use a TS server, is it best to join the channel and create the group for the drop before or after you hit the 'Launch' button? I suggest that leaving it until after is probably too late for it to be effective, but that is what you're suggesting when you say PUGs can join a TS server. If on the other hand they do it before the drop, then they're not a group of randoms thrown together with 10 seconds before the game starts, are they?

fair enough

and what do you think of the rest of my post?

[Lavrenti]

Voodoo Circus, on 31 October 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

and what do you think of the rest of my post?

I've just gone back and reread it, but rather than reply specifically to it I hope you won't mind if I give my opinion on the team balance issue in general.

My own feeling - and Krivvan's research seems to back it up - is that a premade of pretty much any size (3 or greater, say) is capable of having a major effect on the course of the battle if they're matched against a team comprised solely of PUGs. The key issue is their increased ability to communicate and coordinate their actions rather than the fact that they're a premade; it's just that premade groups are the only ones that have that option right now. I've seen stompings result from a PUG using the in-game text chat effectively, but it's really not up to the job in most cases.

Experienced players, even without being in a group, can also have an effect simply because they know a bit better what can be expected from themselves, their equipment, and any other experienced players on their team. This effect isn't as large, but against new players it's still enough to be decisive a lot of the time. They are also likely to have a better idea of how to outfit their mechs once they can afford to buy one, and this multiplies their effectiveness even further. If these factors are combined in a coordinated, communicating group of experienced players I'm not surprised that they roflstomp a PUG of newbies using trial mechs.

Premades are the most visible aspect of this, and people tend to blame them because they combine the aspects above. I agree that premades are not responsible for all the stompings people receive. They are probably responsible for the most obvious ones, however, and we can't expect everyone to take a nuanced view of the issue: being utterly destroyed in several matches in a row is very dispiriting, and if there's an obvious target for those feelings it'll get blamed in a lot of cases.

[Ardem]

To be fair I think it is time dependent in the SEA and Oceania time zone I would say it is 1 in 4 premades. We general know based on the fight put up by the other side.

Also we taken to announcing we are premade before a fight, so not to give the pubbers a shock.

[REDACTED]

Edited by miSs, 01 November 2012 - 01:03 PM.
flame bait content

[Lavrenti]

Ardem, on 31 October 2012 - 09:55 PM, said:

To be fair I think it is time dependent in the SEA and Oceania time zone I would say it is 1 in 4 premades. We general know based on the fight put up by the other side.

Also we taken to announcing we are premade before a fight, so not to give the pubbers a shock.

Thanks, I prefer to know I'm up against a premade. It doesn't change the outcome, but it's a mark of respect to your opposition I feel.

The time aspect is also a point, I'm in Oceania as well which might explain why I seem to see a similar ratio of premades.

[Ardem]

Well Lavrenti,

If you need a good team just give us a bell. You will see us in House Kurita forums below.

Or just friend me in game.

[EvilMilk]

make this thread a sticky and start locking down all the Pug vs team whining threads

[SHORTZ]

I think everyone who is having a cry over premades has no idea what they are talking about imo. it does not matter about the mechs you are using, for the last 5 days i was using the trial dragon against premade teams and had a heap of victories. however, what i was using was teamspeak, which is definitely the deciding factor.

It doesnt matter what mech you are driving, if you have no way to communicate with the people on your team, you will usually always lose to teams who are coordinating their attacks. Communication plays one of the biggest roles on the battlefield. so if you are tired of losing to premades, buy yourself a headset, download teamspeak3 for free, and start talking to people. you will notice the difference straight away, and the randoms i have played with have always been super friendly. As a side note.. to me it makes the game heaps more fun because you can actually utilise the role you are supposed to be playing with the mech you are driving.

That is just my opinion