89 replies to this topic

[Poerisija]

You don't get the point at all do you? There's a reason NO OTHER GAME OUT THERE pits premade teams vs bunch of randoms. Yes, I've read the article. No, it doesn't have anything to do what's going on our here atm.

[Valder]

Voice comms are absolutely why I run premade as well.

Poerisija, on 01 November 2012 - 03:13 PM, said:

You don't get the point at all do you? There's a reason NO OTHER GAME OUT THERE pits premade teams vs bunch of randoms. Yes, I've read the article. No, it doesn't have anything to do what's going on our here atm.

What about Tribes Ascend, Planetside 2, StarCraft 2 (albeit with skill based matching), and War Z? Two of the biggest (F2P) competitors currently released, along with every other game I play perhaps?

Edited by Valder, 01 November 2012 - 03:30 PM.

[malibu43]

Agent of Change, on 01 November 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

....

Would people say (as I've seen two now say it explicitly in this thread) that the time overhead of setting up a premade/voice every time is dissuading you from wanting to run in a premade group? (to clarify when i say premade i am talking about any group playing together using the in game grouping mechanics not just organizations like merc corps.)

That's exactly it for me. I have 15-20 minutes to play most times (I know that's not much. Maybe I'm not the average player or in the target market, but I'm giving my feedback anyway). That's enough time to get in 2 PUG games maybe. If I have to sit in a TS lobby for more than a couple minutes, I'm only getting one game in. If I'm in there for 15 minutes, I'm not getting any games in. If I had the choice and time, I would absolutely want to be in a premade group, taking orders, and communicating.

I don't think anyone here is saying that comms don't make the game more fun (they sure as hell do for me!) or that comms don't give a team an advantage. I think the gaming experience is better with comms vs without comms, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. It should be that way. The devs just need to make sure the gaming experience without EXTERNAL comms programs isn't a bad one. It doesn't have to be as good as with external comms and clans or whatever, but it can't be downright bad or discouraging. Having seemlessly integrated voice comms in-game for PUGs will allow people like me, or new players who are trying the game out for the first time to communicate if we wish, and hopefully have a fun experience. I think it's a bit much to expect that a completely new player is going to have a bad experience the first few matches and then go through all the effort to get on TS. They're just going to walk away.

Slightly OT - I also have to add that my PUG experience without comms is as not bad as some are reporting. I've only played 8 matches since Monday, but I have an 5-3 record with a >1 K/D (1.25) using a trial Dragon (no premium, trying to grind out some CB). But I've also had some practice over the last few months. Someone new that's used to playing CoD probably wouldn't do as well.

Edited by malibu43, 01 November 2012 - 03:31 PM.

[bLaCkMaMbA]

Look... PGI already has matchmaking fixes planned. I don't get why theres so much fuss about this when they already said its on the way.

You complain that you're pitted against premade teams at the moment... ask yourself this.. who's choice is it to go with a bunch of randoms?

You have the EXACT SAME option that others have... don't QQ when other people took advantage of it when you chose not to. It is YOUR CHOICE if you keep going that route knowing that it's a disadvantage until the new matchmaker comes out. It's not like people making groups are in some special category that you aren't included in.

If you choose to disadvantage yourself with random people that can have little to no experience, people DC'ing or suiciding for C-bills... thats your fault and you could change that at any time. Others have made a choice to go with more reliable teammates and PGI plus the community have provided TS servers to remedy this... yet you still complain.

When are you going to start looking at yourself and change your own behavior versus blaming others for taking whats available to everyone? Why whine so much about wanting your own playing conditions in your own playground when they already said they're fixing it soon?

[Sickocrow]

As it stands now the MM has the WOT equivalent of matching a 8 man tank company versus 8 complete randoms in a random battle. There's a very good reason why Wargaming limited platoons to 3 men only in a 15 man team.

VOIP or not. That is going to kill a new comers experience faster than anything. Forcing new players to get absolutely stomped to death is not a good way to go.

From my own personnel experience yesterday teaching a mate how to play. We had both our gaming laptops set up right next to each as I taught him how to play in our little 2 made group (he's a long time WOT player as well). It was blatantly evident when you were up against a large premade group, and the game would be over in short order. His first comments were 'this is ******* brutal and I would have said '**** this' already without you helping me out.'

[F lan Ker]

S!

In WoT you can get against a "premade" if they use the "simultaneous launch" trick. It works at times and you end up with friends in your team. But this is hair splitting The article applies quite well, PUG players screaming doom and gloom when they can not be arsed to do at least some BASIC level co-operation in a game to ensure a victory or giving hard time to the opponent. No, instead they come to forums screaming "nerf team play". What part of ONLINE did they not grasp? I've seen some headless chicken PUGs and then some VERY good ones. Also met premades of different quality. But it all boils down to one thing: Team work. Use it or lose. Simple.

[Lorcan Lladd]

Yes, let's choose between the insufferable old ladies on the chatterbox and the clueless newbies, that shouldn't be difficult.

Edited by Lorcan Lladd, 01 November 2012 - 03:36 PM.

[Valder]

Lorcan Lladd, on 01 November 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

Yes, let's choose between the insufferable old ladies on the chatterbox and the clueless newbies, that shouldn't be difficult.

I lol'd a little

[malibu43]

bLaCkMaMbA, on 01 November 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

Look... PGI already has matchmaking fixes planned. I don't get why theres so much fuss about this when they already said its on the way.

True. Although I think the original topic of this thread was talking about why people do or don't use VOIP, not whether or not the MM system is broken.

bLaCkMaMbA, on 01 November 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

You complain that you're pitted against premade teams at the moment... ask yourself this.. who's choice is it to go with a bunch of randoms? You have the EXACT SAME option that others have... don't QQ when other people took advantage of it when you chose not to. It is YOUR CHOICE if you keep going that route knowing that it's a disadvantage until the new matchmaker comes out. It's not like people making groups are in some special category that you aren't included in. If you choose to disadvantage yourself with random people that can have little to no experience, people DC'ing or suiciding for C-bills... thats your fault and you could change that at any time. Others have made a choice to go with more reliable teammates and PGI plus the community have provided TS servers to remedy this... yet you still complain. When are you going to start looking at yourself and change your own behavior versus blaming others for taking whats available to everyone? Why whine so much about wanting your own playing conditions in your own playground when they already said they're fixing it soon?

Why not make the game easier for new people to succeed, though? Just because there are steps new players can take to be successful doesn't mean the devs shouldn't put a lot of effort into minimizing or eliminating those steps.

[Fl3tcher]

As soon as the matchmaker is sorted (and I don't mean phase 1, that's only going to make the problem worse) this entire argument will be forgotten.

Hurry up Devs, pull your finger out and sort the bloody matchmaker before half the game population quits over it!

[bLaCkMaMbA]

malibu43, on 01 November 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

True. Although I think the original topic of this thread was talking about why people do or don't use VOIP, not whether or not the MM system is broken.



Why not make the game easier for new people to succeed, though? Just because there are steps new players can take to be successful doesn't mean the devs shouldn't put a lot of effort into minimizing or eliminating those steps.

Because the Matchmaker fix, why people use VOIP, and all those posts complaining about PUGS/Premades go hand in hand. It's very simple... the current playing condition right now is PUGs/Premades get matched against each other and the common excuse is that the premades have VOIP while PUGS don't. Everyone has a choice to go one way or the other... to play in these conditions or not to play. If one choses to not take advantage of the VOIP and the improved teammates/teamwork it provides, theres no use to complain about others utilizing the same resources they can.

PGI is already working on the skill based matchmaker to make the game easier for new people. Until then, they've provided free TS3 servers so people can get reliable teammates instead of doing the pug lottery. Those who see the steps to take but don't take them shouldn't complain when others take that step.

I don't buy for a second the excuse that the dev's aren't working to minimize or eliminate the problem... they've already told everyone its coming.

Edited by bLaCkMaMbA, 01 November 2012 - 04:08 PM.

[Devils Advocate]

RedHairDave, on 01 November 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

garth confirmes it, the pug vs premade issue is all in the head of the puggers. you only see them 1 in 10 battles, all the other losses you think were premades stomping you, were just puggers with a modicum of cohesion.

This is totally inaccurate unfortunately. He was using old data.

[bLaCkMaMbA]

I'm pretty sure Garth can get updated data anytime he pleases. Probably has a dashboard up keeping track of numbers at all times. People went as far as accusing Garth of lying which is ridiculous.

[Lin Shai]

Teirdome, on 01 November 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

These comments are all predicated on one assumption:

You're able to talk.

I live in a house built in 1890. The interior walls never had insulation added to them, so they are only slightly thicker than paper.

There are really two times I get chunks of time to play: when my wife is sleeping, when my wife is working.

I'm not going to talk while she's sleeping. She works from home on a major political campaign and is on the phone constantly, there's no way I'm going to embarrass her by talking about a video game while she's on those calls.

The rest of the time I get 20-30 minute chunks to play. You may downplay it, but getting into and operating in a premade is extra overhead. 20 minutes is either 2 games pugging, or 1 win in a premade. Until last night when I lost 10 out of 12 I had almost 50% W/L pugging, so I was certainly progressing faster in small windows than when in a premade.

Erm, I get what you're saying about noise but ... interior walls never have insulation in them.

In fact, if indeed your interior walls are original from 1890, you have a lath and plaster walls which are about 2x thicker (including the wood lath) than modern drywall. More than likely the problem is your walls are reflecting heavily and the echos carry out of the room.

Also, as was pointed out in the OP, you don't have to talk. If you can listen and follow what other people are doing, you're more valuable than a random PUG who has to be typed to and may just rambo off anyway.

But yes, given such short time banding, unless you get with a group that is drop/play/drop/play there's generally a couple minutes of downtime between matches to BS about the previous match. Not always, but I suspect it's the norm.

Edited by Lin Shai, 01 November 2012 - 04:49 PM.

[Ghosth]

Everyone I know who plays WOT any amount does it hooked up via TS or Vent server with their clan/group/squadron.

It is simply much more competitive, teamwork is possible via voice that just are not practical via keyboard.

If you want a single player game, then by all means, go find one, I myself use Skyrim for exactly that, quiet time, to randomly run around doing quests, shooting critters or people.

But if you want to be GOOD at MWO it needs teamwork, and that means VOIP. Pick your flavor and go. There are several to choose from.

[Greyfyl]

Yokaiko, on 01 November 2012 - 07:11 AM, said:

Unless you have a crap connection there is really no reason not to.

And see right there is where you are wrong. Just plain wrong.

You are trying to force the larger part of the gaming community to play YOUR way. If they don't want to play your way then screw them - they can just be cannon fodder for you 'real' players.

The problem is - how many hardcore MW fans are there really out there. Enough to support this game just by ourselves? I doubt it. We need other players - including the ones that want to just drop solo if they only have 15 minutes (or quite frankly if they don't want to listen to people like you in their ears).

Not everyone looks to their computer games as a social event.

PGI dropped the ball by throwing new players into matches with hardcore players regardless of whether they are truly premade vs pug or not. I've seen plenty of games this week that weren't premades, but had 6 or 7 founders in top gear mechs facing 6 or 7 trial mechs. Really PGI?

Beta or not - this will have an effect on the long term longevity of the game. Most of us have been waiting a long time for this game and I find it hilarious that so many of you can't show any amount of restraint in this regard. But I guess I was expecting way too much from an online gaming community.

[Greyfyl]

bLaCkMaMbA, on 01 November 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure Garth can get updated data anytime he pleases. Probably has a dashboard up keeping track of numbers at all times. People went as far as accusing Garth of lying which is ridiculous.

Why in the world would he be above lying. Not saying he is or he isn't. But really, do you know him personally? Is he the godfather of your children? What makes you so sure that it's RIDICULOUS to think that someone in charge of a project that at the moment has alot of unhappy customers would lie?

I personally think there is just as much if not more reason to lie than not to lie. Open Beta is a mess in many people's eyes.

[Rotaugen]

Just played my first Teamspeak set of games with a random group. We were not a premade unit, just 8 strangers. It is a COMPLETELY different game! I played in 5 games and went 5 for 5. Unbelievable how big a difference it made. The people were very friendly, and helpful when I told them it was the first time I was trying Teamspeak and a group drop. I HIGHLY recommend that people try this out. It was very easy to do and well worth it.

[Guido]

Rotaugen, on 01 November 2012 - 07:06 PM, said:

Just played my first Teamspeak set of games with a random group. We were not a premade unit, just 8 strangers. It is a COMPLETELY different game! I played in 5 games and went 5 for 5. Unbelievable how big a difference it made. The people were very friendly, and helpful when I told them it was the first time I was trying Teamspeak and a group drop. I HIGHLY recommend that people try this out. It was very easy to do and well worth it.

Wish I could like this statement a few times. I'll have to do with quoting it so people can see it on two posts.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (is that enough to get your attention to the quote?), is the NORMAL response to a person who just played their first session with VOIC. That's why founder's vets keep emphasizing it. It's not because we want you to play our way, but because we know EXACTLY how much of a difference it makes, and when you realize how much better your game is after doing it, you'll understand why a team that communicates and works together, random players or not, will always win over a team that doesn't. Then you'll find a way to play YOUR way, and still incorporate comms somehow.

Edited by Guido, 01 November 2012 - 07:28 PM.

[Redmond Spiderhammer]

Funny.. I didn't even know there was built in voice.. I activated it in the options menu, is that all it takes to make it work?