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LRMs are way overpowered


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#101 Death Knell

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:27 AM

View PostA5mod3us, on 04 November 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

Or did you just completely skim over my whole ROLE WARFARE argument? That figures. Might as well be selling my point to a bunch of wood posts.


Your role warfare argument was a good point, so there was no point in arguing against that.

EDIT: To add to this, I wasn't trying to pick apart your argument by pulling at the 'LRM's not being a killing weapon' thing as though that were the crux of your statement. I was just stating something that particularly aggravates me.

As is, I do in fact agree that there are many weapons that completely outclass other weapons. When some one's desperately trying to fire and approach me as best they can, and I'm simply able to click a button over and over to kill them it's unfair. They twist and weave their torso to try and mitigate as much damage to their CT as they can, but it doesn't matter, I'm just able to melt through all their armor because I'm doing 80 damage salvos.

Edited by Death Knell, 04 November 2012 - 10:30 AM.


#102 Captain Wolfsburg

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:34 AM

View PostDeath Knell, on 04 November 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:


Your role warfare argument was a good point, so there was no point in arguing against that.

EDIT: To add to this, I wasn't trying to pick apart your argument by pulling at the 'LRM's not being a killing weapon' thing as though that were the crux of your statement. I was just stating something that particularly aggravates me.

As is, I do in fact agree that there are many weapons that completely outclass other weapons. When some one's desperately trying to fire and approach me as best they can, and I'm simply able to click a button over and over to kill them it's unfair. They twist and weave their torso to try and mitigate as much damage to their CT as they can, but it doesn't matter, I'm just able to melt through all their armor because I'm doing 80 damage salvos.


Oh, okay. Sorry for snapping at ya :)

#103 SeDevri

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:53 AM

I would like to make a point here.

The Devs have stated that they wish to remain as faithful to the table top game as possible, and while i understand that this is beta, that also means that they need to fix issues that are grossly unbalanced......which LRMs are OP and NOT in keeping with the Table Top by a large margin. Now, ok if they want to keep LRMs damage at what it is then they need to balance it in other ways, which would be fine by me but the point is they NEED TO BALANCE THEM. A few suggestion I've come up with are:

1) Cluster Hit Rules: According to the table top rules(which are the standard by which the game it base) missile weapons should, on AVERAGE, be able to only hit with about 60% of the missiles fired. Note that this is a HARD NUMBER based on an average die roll of 2D6(ie 7). That would mean that most times you fire with an LRM5/10/15/20 you would only hit with 3/6/9/12 missiles(subjectively). At the moment LRMs hit with a FAR higher % of missiles per shot(assuming you aren't launching your missiles into a hill).

2) AMS: AMS currently does NOT function as it does in the Table Top game(and no i'm NOT expecting an exact port you understand). In the Table Top game an ASM reduces the number of missiles that hit from the Cluster Rules by -4(ie you roll 2D6-4 to see how many missile would normally hit). This would effectively reduce the MAXIMUM number of missiles to about 66.66666% (ie. LRM5/10/15/20 you would only hit with 3/6/10/13 missiles), while the AVERAGE number of hits would be reduced to 1/3/4/5 missiles(rounded properly).

This would go a HUGE way toward balancing them properly at there current damage. I hope this gives people some perspective on exactly how effective LRMs are actually supposed to be. As i say, I'm not expecting and exact port from table top, but if that's supposed to be the BASIS for this games build then i believe it should reflect that at least a little more closely.

#104 New Breed

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:07 AM

LRM 5 spam is the worst right now, the shake is just as much as a LRM 20 or AC 20 hit.. it's even worse then AC2 hits.

#105 Captain Wolfsburg

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 10:04 AM

I think SeDevri makes a good point on AMS. Improve AMS would mean LRMs being less of a viable spam weapon for sure.

#106 shabowie

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:28 AM

View PostA5mod3us, on 02 November 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

Someone needs to record some battle footage comparing teams that are LRM heavy with teams with combined arms to finally end this argument. Do this the smart way instead of just going back and forth on a forum thread.


I am only playing in premades lately, so I could have recorded a bunch of matches where my team was not LRM heavy against teams that were, even other teams that were premade, and we won by using cover and multiple interlocking AMS. I've seen 4-5 mechs in a one grid square area with a mech near the back of the formation getting shot at by LRMs and only a tiny percentage or no missiles reaching the target because they are flying across the entire range envelope of multiple AMS prior to impact.

It is "overpowered" if its being used by a good premade against a bunch of pubs, but most things are in that sense.

#107 MadFJohn

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 10:02 PM

you do understand the damage chang is thanks to the armor chang and the armor chang is thanks to lasers killing light mechs to fast just a start here

#108 Volthorne

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 10:36 PM

View PostSeDevri, on 04 November 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

I would like to make a point here.

The Devs have stated that they wish to remain as faithful to the table top game as possible, and while i understand that this is beta, that also means that they need to fix issues that are grossly unbalanced......which LRMs are OP and NOT in keeping with the Table Top by a large margin. Now, ok if they want to keep LRMs damage at what it is then they need to balance it in other ways, which would be fine by me but the point is they NEED TO BALANCE THEM. A few suggestion I've come up with are:

1) Cluster Hit Rules: According to the table top rules(which are the standard by which the game it base) missile weapons should, on AVERAGE, be able to only hit with about 60% of the missiles fired. Note that this is a HARD NUMBER based on an average die roll of 2D6(ie 7). That would mean that most times you fire with an LRM5/10/15/20 you would only hit with 3/6/9/12 missiles(subjectively). At the moment LRMs hit with a FAR higher % of missiles per shot(assuming you aren't launching your missiles into a hill).

2) AMS: AMS currently does NOT function as it does in the Table Top game(and no i'm NOT expecting an exact port you understand). In the Table Top game an ASM reduces the number of missiles that hit from the Cluster Rules by -4(ie you roll 2D6-4 to see how many missile would normally hit). This would effectively reduce the MAXIMUM number of missiles to about 66.66666% (ie. LRM5/10/15/20 you would only hit with 3/6/10/13 missiles), while the AVERAGE number of hits would be reduced to 1/3/4/5 missiles(rounded properly).

This would go a HUGE way toward balancing them properly at there current damage. I hope this gives people some perspective on exactly how effective LRMs are actually supposed to be. As i say, I'm not expecting and exact port from table top, but if that's supposed to be the BASIS for this games build then i believe it should reflect that at least a little more closely.

Can you imagine the outrage LRM-platform users would have over clustered hits OR TT-ported AMS? "Hey guys, all we need is 3 AMS and then stay in a group, LRMs won't even touch us!". Yeah, ******* amazing. 3 AMS working as multipicative stacks (the LESS painful option - additive would mean 99% reduction) would mean that for every 20 LRMs fired, 5 get through. 5. *********. Missiles. For only 4.5 tonnes on the enemy team. I don't think so.

Clustered hits would be nearly as bad. "Let me just fire off a couple salvos (of 20x2 LRMS).... WTF? HE TOOK NO TORSO HITS? THIS IS ********!". Again, no thanks, I don't need bad mechanics to artificially nerf my weapons. AMS is good vs. single salvos of LRMs, and bad when it gets flooded. People are currently flooding AMS systems with too many targets.


I posted this in another thread, and it's worth saying:

I think the actual problem here is: there are no proper "anti-LRM" maps. By this, I mean all 4 maps we have as of right now have open areas that are perfect for LRM platforms to maximize thier potency (conversely, this makes it easier to snipe them too). We don't have any maps that are specifically detrimental to the usage of LRMs (caverns, Metropolises, mountains&valleys, etc), which may be throwing the data a bit. I expect that as soon as we get some of these maps, LRM usage will decrease in favour of shorter range weaponry, and when longer range direct-fire weapons are brought to balanced conditions, it will stabilize LRM platform usage at acceptable levels.

#109 Atreus Ofiach

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:29 AM

GOONSWARM!!!!!! Every topic with this similar title is just swarmed by idiots protecting their OP builds.

The ****** goons are just gonna say its not OP to ruin the gameplay so whatever, **** the goons, keep posting and get LRM retardation fixed.

GG PGI GG

and no matter what the map the extreme LRM AOA is going to come in over all but the highest deffilade.

Edited by jordanfoy, 06 November 2012 - 12:30 AM.


#110 Sulf

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:36 AM

View PostNomonames2, on 01 November 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:

yeah the cata A1 has 3 missle harpoints on each arm capible of carrying 3x LRM 15s on each...


I was curious about this so thought I'd check it out. A Catapult stripped of engine, weapons, all armor and components is 6.5 tons. the smallest engine is an xl weighing 2.5. A lrm 15 weighs 7 tons. thats 42 tons. total is 49 tons.

That means you have 16 tons for heatsinks and ammo. DHS wouldn't be worth it cause of xl engine and all the slots lrm 15s take up. still say you wanted to. You can fit 2 with 12 tons of lrms (slot limitations. 14 tons of lrms if you put some in legs or arms). not good. you'll overheat more than you'll fire. cut 2 tons of ammo and you can get 4. still too little. at most. cut the xl engine you'll have room for 6. move the ammo around (arms/ legs cockpit) you'll have room enough for 8 DHS. The max you'll get.

That means you're a 51 tons, plus 8 tons of DHS and 6 tons of lrms. 900 missiles. You're also armorless and fit to explode. If people are running this build I really want to fight them.

#111 Atreus Ofiach

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:57 AM

@ brick you're going it wrong. I understand the amount of experimentation is still limited by the newer shittier hangar model but still.... 6x15 LRM's is extremely easy to mount... once again GOONSWARM comments!

#112 Volthorne

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 01:08 AM

View Postjordanfoy, on 06 November 2012 - 12:29 AM, said:

GOONSWARM!!!!!! Every topic with this similar title is just swarmed by idiots protecting their OP builds.

The ****** goons are just gonna say its not OP to ruin the gameplay so whatever, **** the goons, keep posting and get LRM retardation fixed.

GG PGI GG

and no matter what the map the extreme LRM AOA is going to come in over all but the highest deffilade.

View Postjordanfoy, on 06 November 2012 - 12:57 AM, said:

@ brick you're going it wrong. I understand the amount of experimentation is still limited by the newer shittier hangar model but still.... 6x15 LRM's is extremely easy to mount... once again GOONSWARM comments!

Where the hell are you getting "Goonswarm" from? All their members are CLEARLY marked by their signatures. I have not seen a single ******* Goonswarm member in any thread for about a month now. Don't fling around baseless accusations unless you have data to back it up, foo.

#113 Mordin Ashe

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 01:13 AM

View PostNomonames2, on 01 November 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:

yeah the cata A1 has 3 missle harpoints on each arm capible of carrying 3x LRM 15s on each... that comes to 45 missles per arm 90 total and at 2 damage a pop thats 180 damage...

Could you please tell me how can you fit 42 tons of weaponry into 65 tons mech? Thx

#114 Atreus Ofiach

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 02:18 AM

/sigh fact is goons always flame forums about OP builds they like to use. when something is obviouly OP they create hundreds of alt accounts and flame intelligent posts to save their favorite OP builds. just about any MMO game is filled with these internet hitmen it's pathetic. My 7 year old nephew pumped 750 damage out on his WORST game in an LRM boat FFS and hes an outdoor kinda kid!

Anyway to me it's obviously a goon idiocy campaign to ruin another game by turning people away and PGI has to be smart enough to get away from it. Whatever though I've personally written this game off as MW5 I would rather give my money to ADHESIVE and RED 5.

Look I understand the WoT every new tank/tank line they put out is OP so everyone grinds and spends money to get it then they slowly nerf it to an equal level with everything else. I don't mind obvious marketing ploys like that hell I applaud it but this......... this is pathetic one mech rules the battlefield.

The catapult. LRM's on the ATLAS, DRAGON, AWESOME, CENTURION, etc etc are fine but the ridiculous chainfire from a catapult is ********. Without this mech the LRM's are OP threads would be few and far between, same with SSRM and GAUSS threads.

yes I got off on a tangent, but lets face it. If you aren't being a myopic tool protecting your own OP builds you can see this.

#115 Stripes

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 03:27 AM

Just my Dear God... And i was thinking russian game communtity is generally ******** - but THIS tear-water-fall... Just WOW.
No offence to anyone.

I am dedicated support fire pilot. That means two things - long range Energy Weapons and LRM. And guess what? Every match i feel USELESS. Why you ask? Same thing, which in your eye's makes LRM OP - i sit and wait untill my lancemates spot something to shot for me.
In the truth, LRM carryers have only one upside - it is most efficent way to kill lagshielded 140 km\h Scouts.

In the end, lack of support fire means bad lance - but some such 'mechs in lance does not mean it is OP...

#116 MercilessTRADER

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 06:32 AM

The easiest weapon should be the hardest to kill someone, not the easiest, this is reversed. I hope they adjust the LRM 20s to less than 40 damage..or have a real good radar jamming dynamic to counter this. Cause this game is all about boating to WIN...

#117 Karl Marlow

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 07:23 AM

The double damage on LRMs does bug me since all other weapons are roughly cannon. However my main problem with LRMS is the "unrealistic" way they track targets. The way LRMS cluster together and actually follow mechs isn't proper behavior for a stock LRM. LRMs are dumbfire missiles just like SRM's. Their current behavior is more like Streak LRMS. The only time I would expect LRMs to be doing what they are doing now is if a target is NARCed.

#118 Volthorne

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 07:45 AM

View Postjordanfoy, on 06 November 2012 - 02:18 AM, said:

/sigh fact is goons always flame forums about OP builds they like to use. when something is obviouly OP they create hundreds of alt accounts and flame intelligent posts to save their favorite OP builds. just about any MMO game is filled with these internet hitmen it's pathetic. My 7 year old nephew pumped 750 damage out on his WORST game in an LRM boat FFS and hes an outdoor kinda kid!

Anyway to me it's obviously a goon idiocy campaign to ruin another game by turning people away and PGI has to be smart enough to get away from it. Whatever though I've personally written this game off as MW5 I would rather give my money to ADHESIVE and RED 5.

Look I understand the WoT every new tank/tank line they put out is OP so everyone grinds and spends money to get it then they slowly nerf it to an equal level with everything else. I don't mind obvious marketing ploys like that hell I applaud it but this......... this is pathetic one mech rules the battlefield.

The catapult. LRM's on the ATLAS, DRAGON, AWESOME, CENTURION, etc etc are fine but the ridiculous chainfire from a catapult is ********. Without this mech the LRM's are OP threads would be few and far between, same with SSRM and GAUSS threads.

yes I got off on a tangent, but lets face it. If you aren't being a myopic tool protecting your own OP builds you can see this.

Pay close attention people. This is the prime example of who we DO NOT want in MW:O. "By all means, the two assault 'Mechs that can boat LRMs are fine, even though they can carry MORE THAN THE CATAPULT".

#119 EtherDragon

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:36 AM

I didn't read any of this thread - so I'm totally jumping to a conclusion - berate me at your leasure.

However, this is a meta LRM post ... post.

Consider this:

How many topics have been started saying that LRM are OP?
Spoiler

How many topics have been started saying that LRM need a buff?
Spoiler


/thread
/topic
/opinion

Can we please have an LRM nerf (of some kind) that makes it so about as many people think they need a buff as there are those who think it needs more nerf?

#120 Noth

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:39 AM

View PostEtherDragon, on 06 November 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

I didn't read any of this thread - so I'm totally jumping to a conclusion - berate me at your leasure.

However, this is a meta LRM post ... post.

Consider this:

How many topics have been started saying that LRM are OP?
Spoiler

How many topics have been started saying that LRM need a buff?
Spoiler


/thread
/topic
/opinion

Can we please have an LRM nerf (of some kind) that makes it so about as many people think they need a buff as there are those who think it needs more nerf?


Funny thing is, back before the TAG and NARC were added and teh Missiles did 1.8 damage it was a nice balance between OP threads and USeless threads, which devs admitted was a good sign of balance. THen then buffed missiles again and gave no reason why.





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