125 replies to this topic

[Volthorne]

Were any of you actually around in early June when LRMs:

• Went over EVERYTHING
  
• Went through EVERYTHING that wasn't a Mech
  
• Did 1.4 damage
  
• Had a range of 640M

No? Let me tell you something: despite BOTH bugs that *should* have made them OP, you had to rain down MINIMUM 1000 missiles to actually kill something other than an Atlas (at the time, Atlas was taking 9001% more headshot damage than it currently is). Don't even f***ing complain about LRMS when you haven't been around long enough to properly judge the state of a weapon system.

In comparison, LRMs now:

• Collide with almost EVERYTHING they can at the first possible opportunity
  
• Have a launch angle that limits the *good* spots to set up an LRM boat
  
• Are the only weapon with a hard-counter that is non-environmental (AMS)
  
• Deal 2 damage
  
• Have a range of 1000M

Edited by Volthorne, 02 November 2012 - 08:47 AM.

[Hardcover]

CHWarpath, on 02 November 2012 - 12:21 AM, said:

Were you ever in the military? You strike me as the guy who wasn't. I was and it was not fun. Video games are supposed to be fun. Why don't we just ad entrenching tools so we can dig our own latrines while we are at it, heck while your at it lets sell some baby wipes with mech credits for those days you can't take showers in your mech?

Now that we have that covered, a "game" is usually fair, balanced, and about eye hand coordination/strategy. Have you ever even been in sports? Games are fun, war is not. I hope you are taking notes.

Yes, actually, I was in the military. I spent four years in the U.S. Army. And yeah, the vast majority of it is complete and total *** (especially if you were assigned to air defense unit, which was the red-headed stepchild of the combat arms branches, but that's a whole other story). And yeah, games are fun - when you're winning. It's a rare game - or person - that enjoys playing when they're losing. That, if you're really honest with yourself, is a huge portion of a lot of these "X is OP" threads. Someone gets reamed a bunch of times by a particular weapon system/tactic/fitting and then it's to the forums screaming about how it needs to be nerfed.

But here's something I would have you take a note of: I already explained two good ways of how to counter LRM spam, namely AMS and getting into close range. LRMs don't detonate if they hit within 100 meters or so. And here's a couple more that I've seen work: LRMs don't track speedy 'Mechs well. And - this one should be familiar to you - break line of sight to the enemy whenever possible, and hug those hills and cliffs as a way of taking cover.

And finally, instead of just complaining about how LRMs are OP, how about trying to be creative and make a suggestion to how they might be fixed? ROF drop, tracking decrease, heat increase, damage decrease... this is, after all, Open Beta, not release. I find it amazing how many people forget that.

Oh, and if you think LRMs are OP now - consider that you're playing with an armor value double that which you'd have on tabletop. Just think about that for a minute.

[MercilessTRADER]

I was around from early in the closed BETA. When i don't have a sniper scope and threes no radar jam.. Its simply unfair... There no checks and balances here. Its been this way for months. funny how they trick us with that "zoome module". Good idea, currently a gimmick... 2 out of 4 games have 4-6 boats... i guess this is what they intended to some people in here... Cant wait to they patch in a these counter systems for people and make the game the WAY IT WAS INTENDED.

Edited by MercilessTRADER, 02 November 2012 - 10:07 AM.

[renahzor]

Hardcover, on 02 November 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

Oh, and if you think LRMs are OP now - consider that you're playing with an armor value double that which you'd have on tabletop. Just think about that for a minute.

Do people just not see that this is the problem? Every other weapon does around TT values for damage per shot, all weapons have increased ROF to varying degrees (this is so we don't just stand around for 10s between shots), so mostly we shoot about 2x as fast a TT could, double DPS. That's why armor was doubled, to make fights last more than a couple seconds. The only weapon using both increased ROF, AND double TT damage values is LRMs.

[XvDraxvX]

renahzor, on 02 November 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

Do people just not see that this is the problem? Every other weapon does around TT values for damage per shot, all weapons have increased ROF to varying degrees (this is so we don't just stand around for 10s between shots), so mostly we shoot about 2x as fast a TT could, double DPS. That's why armor was doubled, to make fights last more than a couple seconds. The only weapon using both increased ROF, AND double TT damage values is LRMs.

All weapons currently have a higher rate of fire from TT since we are not all taking turns 10 seconds as a time. you can fire your medium laser faster than once every 10 seconds cant you?

[renahzor]

XvDraxvX, on 02 November 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

All weapons currently have a higher rate of fire from TT since we are not all taking turns 10 seconds as a time. you can fire your medium laser faster than once every 10 seconds cant you?

That's my point....... Every weapon has an increase ROF but TT damage values. Only one weapon has an increased ROF and 2x tabletop damage values.

[HarlekinEO]

I thought the same thing about LRMs. They even hit you if you hide behind walls. Also the fire rate is way too high. In other Mechwarrior Games LRMs werent that precises nor fast!

Normally Catapults or Timberwolfs were ment to wear the enemy down, not to be an instant killer.

Edited by HarlekinEO, 02 November 2012 - 09:15 AM.

[XvDraxvX]

renahzor, on 02 November 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

That's my point....... Every weapon has an increase ROF but TT damage values. Only one weapon has an increased ROF and 2x tabletop damage values.

HarlekinEO, on 02 November 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

I thought the same thing about LRMs. They even hit you if you hide behind walls. Also the fire rate is way too high. In other Mechwarrior Games LRMs werent that precises nor fast!

Normally Catapults or Timberwolfs were ment to wear the enemy down, not to be an instant killer.

Ok so the dmg values on the Missiles went up because of the armor increase, the other weapons stayed the same because they can be used with percision. If they increased the dmg on Lasers for example it would negate the double armor increase. LRM's still have plenty of counters plus they do splash dmg.

As for LRM's being killers, its not the missiles killing you per say, Missiles splash all over you mech dealing damage to your CT and spreading out. This lowers your armor value and allows other mechs to kill you. Thats like having someone in a laser mech eating all your armor and have a single LRM5 kill you. Would you complain medium lasers are OP?

Its a team game, and Missiles are just part of it. Missiles can never be used to leg you, or head shot you. Not on purpose anyways, its random.

Learn to use cover, mount AMS, learn to stick together to share AMS, and understand this is a Tactical game that requires strategy and team work.

[renahzor]

XvDraxvX, on 02 November 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

Ok so the dmg values on the Missiles went up because of the armor increase, the other weapons stayed the same because they can be used with percision. If they increased the dmg on Lasers for example it would negate the double armor increase. LRM's still have plenty of counters plus they do splash dmg.

NO

Step 1 the ROF of ALL weapons (including LRMs) went up for gameplay reasons, effectively doubling DPS of most weapons, a bit more but we'll use that for simplicity.

Step 2 mechs die too fast, armor doubled to make them last longer

Step 3 LRMs get double damage, meaning they do 4x the DPS of tabletop value instead of roughly 2x like every other weapon.

Precision is a problem for weapons across the board, from LRMs to small lasers. If you're good at using any of them you'll do more damage than someone who isn't. That's NOT the point, the point is ONLY LRMs got a double per shot damage bonus IN ADDITION to their ROF bump. I cannot explain it any more clearly.

[Volthorne]

XvDraxvX, on 02 November 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

Ok so the dmg values on the Missiles went up because of the armor increase, the other weapons stayed the same because they can be used with percision. If they increased the dmg on Lasers for example it would negate the double armor increase. LRM's still have plenty of counters plus they do splash dmg.

As much as I love being on the "LRMs are fine, you tools" team, I have a problem with this. LRMs were *NOT* given double damage because of double armor. They were given double damage due to their terrible performance with literally every other damage value from 1.0 - 2.0 due to their randomized nature and silly spread distance (a number of missiles will miss entirely UNLESS your target is standing still and has been NARC'd or TAG'd, and damned few people run those in PUGs as-is).

I can do this all damned day, if any nay-sayer against LRMs wants to come challenge me.

Edited by Volthorne, 02 November 2012 - 09:34 AM.

[knuckleduster05]

LRM's are the only weapon that fires multiple shots that have to hit or miss that is different than TT

in TT they hit in groups, in this they are ALL individual, so you can miss LOTS of missiles.

The only use for LRM's is teamwork, it is another example of why teamwork always wins

[Noth]

XvDraxvX, on 02 November 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

Ok so the dmg values on the Missiles went up because of the armor increase, the other weapons stayed the same because they can be used with percision. If they increased the dmg on Lasers for example it would negate the double armor increase. LRM's still have plenty of counters plus they do splash dmg.

As for LRM's being killers, its not the missiles killing you per say, Missiles splash all over you mech dealing damage to your CT and spreading out. This lowers your armor value and allows other mechs to kill you. Thats like having someone in a laser mech eating all your armor and have a single LRM5 kill you. Would you complain medium lasers are OP?

LRMs are supposed to be fire support weapons, weakening targets before they engage with your brawlers. They currently don't weaken targets, they devastate targets. There are times when a single LRM boat can take down 2 enemy mechs to just internals before the enemy mechs even get close to anything but the scout that spotted them, which are stupidly time consuming to take out right now.

They were fine back when they had a higher spread and did less damage. Seriously back before the most recent buff to them, there was by far the fewest complaints about LRMs from both sides. Right after the most recent buff to them which upped their damage to 2.0 and added TAG and NARC, masses cried out about the problems of what is effectively a double buff to a weapon system the vast majority of people thought was in a good spot.

They take no skill for the damage they put out and only encourage passive play. That is poor weapon design right there.

[Volthorne]

Noth, on 02 November 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

LRMs are supposed to be fire support weapons, weakening targets before they engage with your brawlers. They currently don't weaken targets, they devastate targets. There are times when a single LRM boat can take down 2 enemy mechs to just internals before the enemy mechs even get close to anything but the scout that spotted them, which are stupidly time consuming to take out right now.

They were fine back when they had a higher spread and did less damage. Seriously back before the most recent buff to them, there was by far the fewest complaints about LRMs from both sides. Right after the most recent buff to them which upped their damage to 2.0 and added TAG and NARC, masses cried out about the problems of what is effectively a double buff to a weapon system the vast majority of people thought was in a good spot.

They take no skill for the damage they put out and only encourage passive play. That is poor weapon design right there.

You, sir, are f***ing INSANE. Back when "they did less damage and had a higher spread" was when AMS was bugged and they were still absolute garbage.

Your "they are support wepaons, hurf durf, they shouldn't deal damage" statement means ****-all as well. "Support" != "No damage". "Support" = "Not front-lines".

[Noth]

Volthorne, on 02 November 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

You, sir, are f***ing INSANE. Back when "they did less damage and had a higher spread" was when AMS was bugged and they were still absolute garbage.

Your "they are support wepaons, hurf durf, they shouldn't deal damage" statement means ****-all as well. "Support" != "No damage". "Support" = "Not front-lines".

I'm not talking about when they did 1.5 damage. I'm talking about when they did 1.8 and had less spread. There were, compared to before and now, far less complaints about LRMs at that time. Then they buff them to 2.0 and add in 2 items that tighten there spread even more. It was a double buff that was not needed at all. AMS is not that effective against LRMs. They help, but the LRMs will still devastate the mech unless he is in a group with more people running AMS.

At 1.8 people would still pull tops in damage and effectively damage mechs. They just wouldn't devastate them to the point that the mech was useless after getting hit by an incoming large volley. Heck even with 1.8 and a little wider spread you'd still have LRM users topping damage charts and getting kills. It however wouldn't be as dominant as it is now.

[XvDraxvX]

Noth, on 02 November 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

LRMs are supposed to be fire support weapons, weakening targets before they engage with your brawlers. They currently don't weaken targets, they devastate targets. There are times when a single LRM boat can take down 2 enemy mechs to just internals before the enemy mechs even get close to anything but the scout that spotted them, which are stupidly time consuming to take out right now.

They were fine back when they had a higher spread and did less damage. Seriously back before the most recent buff to them, there was by far the fewest complaints about LRMs from both sides. Right after the most recent buff to them which upped their damage to 2.0 and added TAG and NARC, masses cried out about the problems of what is effectively a double buff to a weapon system the vast majority of people thought was in a good spot.

They take no skill for the damage they put out and only encourage passive play. That is poor weapon design right there.

Volthorne, on 02 November 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

You, sir, are f***ing INSANE. Back when "they did less damage and had a higher spread" was when AMS was bugged and they were still absolute garbage.

Your "they are support wepaons, hurf durf, they shouldn't deal damage" statement means ****-all as well. "Support" != "No damage". "Support" = "Not front-lines".

On top of all that the Missile boat is not Devastating mechs like you said. you cannot tell me that 2 fully fresh Atlas's taking 0 dmg from any other source, can't kill a single fire support mech.... You're taking damage from missiles, lasers, Ballistic slugs, and other random forms of damage. The missiles are not working totally alone.....

[Volthorne]

Noth, on 02 November 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

I'm not talking about when they did 1.5 damage. I'm talking about when they did 1.8 and had less spread. There were, compared to before and now, far less complaints about LRMs at that time. Then they buff them to 2.0 and add in 2 items that tighten there spread even more. It was a double buff that was not needed at all. AMS is not that effective against LRMs. They help, but the LRMs will still devastate the mech unless he is in a group with more people running AMS.

At 1.8 people would still pull tops in damage and effectively damage mechs. They just wouldn't devastate them to the point that the mech was useless after getting hit by an incoming large volley. Heck even with 1.8 and a little wider spread you'd still have LRM users topping damage charts and getting kills. It however wouldn't be as dominant as it is now.

Right.... When they were 1.8... You mean when they were still coming down almost vertically and the spread was wide enough that half the volley would miss by default on an immobile target? Yes, of *course* that was balanced...

[Noth]

Volthorne, on 02 November 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

Right.... When they were 1.8... You mean when they were still coming down almost vertically and the spread was wide enough that half the volley would miss by default on an immobile target? Yes, of *course* that was balanced...

You just pick and choose what to read instead of reading the entire thing. I said at 1.8 with a slight wider spread ie, not what it was before.

[MaddMaxx]

They have been tweaked 3-4 times due to QQ about being UP. What is the Dev to do? To change it back down now, due to new QQ about them being OP? That would place them back where they started before all the QQ about the UP bs.

I do not envy the Dev and all this bs QQ'ing about LRM's. If I were them, i would just take them the "****" out of the game and then sit back and listen to the bs QQ'ing about that. After all, every time they listen to the community, it keeps changing it bs mind...

[MadFJohn]

hmm what i get from this thread is you think they are but really they are back to what they were before the added over powered armor on mechs weapons ammo load outs now bing to high and so on so forth .if you want to do this to the LRM then you need to do it for every other upgrad they did like armor, ammo, damage for different weapons and so . just think of it this way in BT a good volley of lrms wood cripple a mech, a AC/20 wood shere off most of every thing on a light mech in one hit, minimum rang did not mean no damage for the ppc , so and so forth. give you a idea on ammo the LRM 15 had only 8 round of fire per ton of ammo and then it was dry . most mechs only cared 2 tons worth of ammo but now tweaking and so forth they have enough ammo not to worry about it.

for those complaining on rate of fire and what not look into solaris they gave a breakdown on how fast the weapons reay fired it was faster than 10 seconds but it took 10 seconds for one heat sink to dissipate that one point of heat so you would have to control your self on rate of fire till you got desperate.

sorry i just caring on like this but i feel this is now drifting farther and farther from what the BT universe was. and post like this is proving it

Edited by MadFJohn, 02 November 2012 - 11:13 AM.

[Noth]

MaddMaxx, on 02 November 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:

They have been tweaked 3-4 times due to QQ about being UP. What is the Dev to do? To change it back down now, due to new QQ about them being OP? That would place them back where they started before all the QQ about the UP bs.

I do not envy the Dev and all this bs QQ'ing about LRM's. If I were them, i would just take them the "****" out of the game and then sit back and listen to the bs QQ'ing about that. After all, every time they listen to the community, it keeps changing it bs mind...

No they don't have to take them down to what they were. In a single patch they got buffed to 1.8 and had a buff to missile spread. At this point, at most they needed a very very small buff (Though they were still able to top damage charts and get kills). They then got buffed to 2.0 and an effective buff to missile spread again (TAG and NARC added). They could drop them to 1.8 and keep the current spread, keep the 2.0 damage and increase the spread, any any variation in between the previous values. All that without making them as bad as they were before.