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I really can't see any benefit to not playing assault


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#21 aspect

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 07:58 PM

View PostObediahGenocide, on 01 November 2012 - 07:50 PM, said:

So what I'm seeing is that one type of light mech can solo an atlas (nerf jenner nao omg11!!1!1) but no mention of the other light mechs. This is a problem that hurts variety of game play, but other than that, good point. It also seems apparent that I need to play a little more to get a better feel for the game, fair enough. But what does this say for the new player experience? This can be really discouraging to new players who want to try all of the mechs. Then there is the problem of difficulty of forming a strategy as a pug. I look forward to getting some friends together and skyping, but a game should not rely on this for their players to plan together.

Any more explanation other than "jenner or ****" would be appreciated.

Edit: Also, the one v one scenario doesn't seem to happen very often. You have multiple mechs blowing each other to hell, and supporting the others. I have yet to see a jenner v atlas one on one.



...I don't think you've played very many matches. Just saying.

#22 lsp

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 07:58 PM

View PostDigital Ninja, on 01 November 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

I can do it in a raven too. Commando is crap though. With the current matchmaking there's no reason not to take the heaviest mech in a given class. The main balance problem with lights is that jenners have the best hardpoints by far. This will be much less of a problem once we have BAP and ECM and such so we have something to use our weight on other than weapons. Currently the raven is an electronic warfare mech with no EW capability. Some variants do have the hardpoints to be equal to a jenner though.

I've noticed how easy commandos are to core but, isn't the 3 missle slot one decent? mounting 3 ssrm2's would make short work of alot of slower mechs it would seem. Probably faster then 4 slas.

#23 Antonio De Lesante

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 07:59 PM

thats funny ultra.. I distinctly remember popping you! :(

oh wait, sorry I was in a medium not a light.

#24 Applecrow

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 07:59 PM

As an assault driver, I have to say:

Skill > Weight class at least 2 to 1.

With collisions out, lights right now are the defacto kings.

#25 cinder

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 08:02 PM

View PostObediahGenocide, on 01 November 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

Please correct me if I'm wrong


I won't say you're wrong, but I will say that you are looking at the game from within a limited frame.

In a one-on-one battle, where the goal is simply to be the last 'mech standing, taking the heaviest, most heavily armed 'mech is a fairly good course of action. In a team-on-team battle, wherein each team is simply trying to cause as much destruction as possible, all other things being equal you may have a case that can be made (the Lyran Alliance would ostensibly agree with you).

In MWO, all other things are not equal. First there is terrain. I would say you have cause to reconsider your assertion that the maps are featureless funnels. Nothing could be further from the truth. All maps have numerous points of cover, distinct "kill zones" where lines of sight are numerous and far-reaching, varying elevation levels, and two of them have one or more closed paths (tunnels, ravines, etc). All of these things directly affect how a 'mech can fight and how it can survive. If the only way you look at a 'mech battle is at point-blank range, sure, cover and elevation are meaningless to you. And for an assault 'mech that moves sub-60kph, that could be a true assessment of one's own battlefield reality. But that's not the reality for a faster 'mech that can disengage from a slower 'mech and use terrain to its advantage, either to break LOS or evade lines of fire from the limited pitch of torso-mounted weapons. A faster 'mech is by definition more lightly armed and armored, but its speed allows it to use to battlefield to its advantage more than a slow-moving assault can.

All maps also currently have objectives. You can win or lose the game on base capture. A faster 'mech will get to your point faster than you will get to his. In a one-on-one battle, this dynamic forces you to play close to your base. If you stray too far away, your poor speed makes you unable to capture his or defend yours. You play close to your base and hope he comes to you. Playing defensively is playing reactively, and that is an advantage for the attacking player. It makes your strategy predictable as you are anchored, while the opponent may come from a variety of angles. The above observations on terrain then enter play within the faster opponent's strategy and to their advantage.

From there you must consider role warfare. A balanced team will have its heavy-hitting assault 'mechs for brawling but it will also have its faster 'mechs for maneuvering and spotting. A Jenner toe-to-toe with your Atlas stands no chance, but a Jenner behind you while you're busy with his teammate in an Awesome has the leisure of picking a shot at your poorly armored rear torso. A Jenner with a couple of unfettered shots at the rear center of an Atlas has a very good chance of taking it down. Add to that the dynamic of indirect fire from LRMs, where faster 'mechs serve as sneak & peek spotters for their teammates and it doesn't matter how heavy you are. In fact your speed works to your disadvantage since you are less quickly moving to break LOS from the spotter, leaving you exposed to LRM fire for longer periods of time. Additionally you are less able to close to within the minimum range of those LRMs.

You add all these pieces together and you get several battlefield roles that need to be filled. If you take nothing but Atlases against a balanced, coordinated team, my money is on the balanced team every time. Sure you can do one thing extremely well, but your lack of battlefield advantage and role fulfillment leaves glaring weaknesses that even a team of modest skill can exploit.

If you continue to look at the game from within the frame of a solo player where your only consideration is your survival in the match, yes, you will continue to hold your view to be correct. But your frame is not the only one within the game is played. Once you realize the game is more dynamic than your ability to see it, your perspective will change.

#26 TANTE EMMA

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 08:02 PM

PALEEEESE, Lights are not OP'd at all, I for my part do not have any trouble to kill a Light with my Hunchie(...I would get into trouble if I would have to deal with BW, but he is in my unit, so it is all good... :( ), nor do I have a problem to fight 1 vs 1 against an Assault(...again I would not like to test this against some of our better Assaultpilots). In the end it is not the Mech, but the pilot that makes the difference. As soon as people start to realize this, they will hopefully start to question their own skills, and not if this and that is OP'd.

Edited by Noakei Siegel, 01 November 2012 - 08:06 PM.


#27 ObediahGenocide

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 08:08 PM

View Postcinder, on 01 November 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:


I won't say you're wrong, but I will say that you are looking at the game from within a limited frame.

In a one-on-one battle, where the goal is simply to be the last 'mech standing, taking the heaviest, most heavily armed 'mech is a fairly good course of action. In a team-on-team battle, wherein each team is simply trying to cause as much destruction as possible, all other things being equal you may have a case that can be made (the Lyran Alliance would ostensibly agree with you).

In MWO, all other things are not equal. First there is terrain. I would say you have cause to reconsider your assertion that the maps are featureless funnels. Nothing could be further from the truth. All maps have numerous points of cover, distinct "kill zones" where lines of sight are numerous and far-reaching, varying elevation levels, and two of them have one or more closed paths (tunnels, ravines, etc). All of these things directly affect how a 'mech can fight and how it can survive. If the only way you look at a 'mech battle is at point-blank range, sure, cover and elevation are meaningless to you. And for an assault 'mech that moves sub-60kph, that could be a true assessment of one's own battlefield reality. But that's not the reality for a faster 'mech that can disengage from a slower 'mech and use terrain to its advantage, either to break LOS or evade lines of fire from the limited pitch of torso-mounted weapons. A faster 'mech is by definition more lightly armed and armored, but its speed allows it to use to battlefield to its advantage more than a slow-moving assault can.

All maps also currently have objectives. You can win or lose the game on base capture. A faster 'mech will get to your point faster than you will get to his. In a one-on-one battle, this dynamic forces you to play close to your base. If you stray too far away, your poor speed makes you unable to capture his or defend yours. You play close to your base and hope he comes to you. Playing defensively is playing reactively, and that is an advantage for the attacking player. It makes your strategy predictable as you are anchored, while the opponent may come from a variety of angles. The above observations on terrain then enter play within the faster opponent's strategy and to their advantage.

From there you must consider role warfare. A balanced team will have its heavy-hitting assault 'mechs for brawling but it will also have its faster 'mechs for maneuvering and spotting. A Jenner toe-to-toe with your Atlas stands no chance, but a Jenner behind you while you're busy with his teammate in an Awesome has the leisure of picking a shot at your poorly armored rear torso. A Jenner with a couple of unfettered shots at the rear center of an Atlas has a very good chance of taking it down. Add to that the dynamic of indirect fire from LRMs, where faster 'mechs serve as sneak & peek spotters for their teammates and it doesn't matter how heavy you are. In fact your speed works to your disadvantage since you are less quickly moving to break LOS from the spotter, leaving you exposed to LRM fire for longer periods of time. Additionally you are less able to close to within the minimum range of those LRMs.

You add all these pieces together and you get several battlefield roles that need to be filled. If you take nothing but Atlases against a balanced, coordinated team, my money is on the balanced team every time. Sure you can do one thing extremely well, but your lack of battlefield advantage and role fulfillment leaves glaring weaknesses that even a team of modest skill can exploit.

If you continue to look at the game from within the frame of a solo player where your only consideration is your survival in the match, yes, you will continue to hold your view to be correct. But your frame is not the only one within the game is played. Once you realize the game is more dynamic than your ability to see it, your perspective will change.


We have a winner! Thank you for this.

#28 Tickdoff Tank

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 08:09 PM

I have a horrible time hitting the fast moving Jenners, but no problems at all with the Cicadas, Ravens and Commandos. I think it is because I hate Jenners so dang much. In every MW game I have ever played I despise those things, even hate the name of them.

It is a good mech, and many Jenner pilots are excellent, but I see red every time there is one in a match, it takes all my self control not to shoot a friendly Jenner in the back.

And no, I don't pilot assaults.

#29 cinder

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 08:10 PM

View PostObediahGenocide, on 01 November 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:


We have a winner! Thank you for this.


You are welcome. That's what happens when you mix an author, gamer, amateur strategist and Battletech fan and stuff all those into the same human brain.

#30 Tarman

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 08:15 PM

View Postlsp, on 01 November 2012 - 07:58 PM, said:

I've noticed how easy commandos are to core but, isn't the 3 missle slot one decent? mounting 3 ssrm2's would make short work of alot of slower mechs it would seem. Probably faster then 4 slas.


Commandos are only underrated by people who don't know how to drive one, like most of the mechs really. It's much more the pilot making the best use of what they have than any clearly superior/inferior ride. Nothing is truly unpilotable to the point of uselessness. Personally I like the COM-3A with twin SRM6 and twin ML. The 3A has a nice weapon hardpoint spread that keeps the ride viable a bit longer in a heavy damage state.

Edited by Tarman, 01 November 2012 - 08:16 PM.


#31 Tickdoff Tank

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 08:18 PM

I love fighting against assaults in my Dragon, I can run circles around them (like a light mech can) and I have a bigger punch and more armor than the lights as well. A well piloted Assault can be tricky, but my mobility usually gives me the edge. Untill the rest of his team finishes destroying the rest of my team and then kicks my butt.

#32 JPsi

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 08:25 PM

I think I'll just point you in the direction of this thread.

http://mwomercs.com/...chback-hbk-4sp/

Conclusion: A clear contender for "best choice" mech in game is a medium mech.

#33 Felicitatem Parco

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 08:26 PM

View PostJPsi, on 01 November 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

I think I'll just point you in the direction of this thread.

http://mwomercs.com/...chback-hbk-4sp/

Conclusion: A clear contender for "best choice" mech in game is a medium mech.

All Hunchbacks are "assault" Mechs :(

#34 Beo Vulf

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 08:27 PM

View PostLike a Sir, on 01 November 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:


What this guy said, once you play for some time, you'll realize that assaults are not all the rage.

A Cicida with Endo steel, Fibro Ferrous, and double heat sinks with and AC 5, and large laser can take down an Atlas.

#35 Gray Carlyle

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 08:28 PM

View PostDigital Ninja, on 01 November 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

Why would you leg a bigger mech? That's completely pointless.


It is not. The salvage revenue is much greater.

#36 dal10

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 08:33 PM

plus it is fun to leg them and run away. They are slow enough to be useless.

#37 Nikol Grall

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 08:46 PM

View Postlsp, on 01 November 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

A jenner can solo a atlas, nuff said.


As well as Streakmandos, Streakapults, Guassapults, Swaybacks, Gauss Dragon and anything else if the Assault pilot isn't highly skilled.

#38 Walk

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 08:53 PM

View PostDigital Ninja, on 01 November 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

Why would you leg a bigger mech? That's completely pointless.


because, quite frankly, its much faster. It only takes less than 10 hits with 6 small lasers to take out a leg from full to broken, and it means the smarter pilots can't turn their torsos to help distribute damage or back themselves into a wall and prevent you from getting to their backside. Overall, if the fight is not interrupted, I can destroy an Atlas in a little over 30 seconds, even faster if I have LRMS incoming to help. And I can usually get at least 1 leg before help arrives, with the obvious exception of really good groups, which makes him easier to pick off with a few drive-by strafings

#39 RiceyFighter

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 08:58 PM

View Postcinder, on 01 November 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:


I won't say you're wrong, but I will say that you are looking at the game from within a limited frame.

In a one-on-one battle, where the goal is simply to be the last 'mech standing, taking the heaviest, most heavily armed 'mech is a fairly good course of action. In a team-on-team battle, wherein each team is simply trying to cause as much destruction as possible, all other things being equal you may have a case that can be made (the Lyran Alliance would ostensibly agree with you).

In MWO, all other things are not equal. First there is terrain. I would say you have cause to reconsider your assertion that the maps are featureless funnels. Nothing could be further from the truth. All maps have numerous points of cover, distinct "kill zones" where lines of sight are numerous and far-reaching, varying elevation levels, and two of them have one or more closed paths (tunnels, ravines, etc). All of these things directly affect how a 'mech can fight and how it can survive. If the only way you look at a 'mech battle is at point-blank range, sure, cover and elevation are meaningless to you. And for an assault 'mech that moves sub-60kph, that could be a true assessment of one's own battlefield reality. But that's not the reality for a faster 'mech that can disengage from a slower 'mech and use terrain to its advantage, either to break LOS or evade lines of fire from the limited pitch of torso-mounted weapons. A faster 'mech is by definition more lightly armed and armored, but its speed allows it to use to battlefield to its advantage more than a slow-moving assault can.

All maps also currently have objectives. You can win or lose the game on base capture. A faster 'mech will get to your point faster than you will get to his. In a one-on-one battle, this dynamic forces you to play close to your base. If you stray too far away, your poor speed makes you unable to capture his or defend yours. You play close to your base and hope he comes to you. Playing defensively is playing reactively, and that is an advantage for the attacking player. It makes your strategy predictable as you are anchored, while the opponent may come from a variety of angles. The above observations on terrain then enter play within the faster opponent's strategy and to their advantage.

From there you must consider role warfare. A balanced team will have its heavy-hitting assault 'mechs for brawling but it will also have its faster 'mechs for maneuvering and spotting. A Jenner toe-to-toe with your Atlas stands no chance, but a Jenner behind you while you're busy with his teammate in an Awesome has the leisure of picking a shot at your poorly armored rear torso. A Jenner with a couple of unfettered shots at the rear center of an Atlas has a very good chance of taking it down. Add to that the dynamic of indirect fire from LRMs, where faster 'mechs serve as sneak & peek spotters for their teammates and it doesn't matter how heavy you are. In fact your speed works to your disadvantage since you are less quickly moving to break LOS from the spotter, leaving you exposed to LRM fire for longer periods of time. Additionally you are less able to close to within the minimum range of those LRMs.

You add all these pieces together and you get several battlefield roles that need to be filled. If you take nothing but Atlases against a balanced, coordinated team, my money is on the balanced team every time. Sure you can do one thing extremely well, but your lack of battlefield advantage and role fulfillment leaves glaring weaknesses that even a team of modest skill can exploit.

If you continue to look at the game from within the frame of a solo player where your only consideration is your survival in the match, yes, you will continue to hold your view to be correct. But your frame is not the only one within the game is played. Once you realize the game is more dynamic than your ability to see it, your perspective will change.


DING DING DING! We have a WINNER!

I agree with you 110%

#40 Dezereus

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 09:00 PM

Please continue to play an assault mech, you can send me an angry letter while I laze around in my raven on your base and you stomp your way back to base(likely the letter will get to me long before you do). Or you can continue to litter the ground with armour fragments that I'll happily knock off of you in passes with my light. Oh you've sent someone to my base to cap, well I'll just run back there and stop that before you can reinforce.

This is all light mech piloting purview, but I think you can see what I am getting at. I'm sure the more mobile brawlers will also help you see the light, but as I don't tend to pilot those I won't comment.

Dez


PS: A jenner toe to toe with an atlas stands no chance? I may not stand and let you swat me while I poke you, but I've taken on multiple atlai at once and through use of maneuverability and good gunnery I have won...I'm not saying its necessarily easy or that its a short fight, but I have no fear of fighting any other weight class with my lights. Play to your advantages and a light can win out. Hell, yesterday I fought my raven against 2 atlai and a raven. I killed the raven and one of the atlai, but could not kill the last atlas before he capped the base. Those guys weren't terrible, but I used my advantages and the fact that if I maneuvered correctly, every time they missed me they were risking hurting an ally.

EDIT unclosed bracket, apologies to my fellow programmers...that must have hurt your brains.

Edited by Dezereus, 01 November 2012 - 09:15 PM.






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