310 replies to this topic

[Vassago Rain]

Ansel, on 02 November 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

Oh nice. It's still a downgrade when compaired to what I can get useing SHS in an atlas instead of being on par with what I could get.

Atlas 4xLL + 1xGR w/2 ton ammo 19 DHS. Normaly 3.8 heat dissipation per second with DHS.
Or Useing an XL engine and SHS I get 2.9 heat dissipation.

The changes to DHS make that 2.26 heat dissipation per second.

I would also like to have an explination of just how weaopns that can only ever fire at a set rate (thier current cycle rate) and are limited in number (hardpoints) can have their DPS exponentially increased. Do they even know what that word means? Are they so incompetent that they have to make up lies to justifiy their inability to do basic math? I would say so at this point lol.

That seems to be what they're doing, yes.

[NovaFury]

On the upside, my jenner will be able to sink it's 4 small lasers so much better, jumping from 14 to 16.8.

Of course, they nerfed small lasers too.

Edited by NovaFury, 02 November 2012 - 03:56 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

NovaFury, on 02 November 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

On the upside, my jenner will be able to sink it's 4 small lasers so much better, jumping from 14 to 16.8.

Of course, they nerfed small lasers too.

Just go to mediums.

[NovaFury]

Vassago Rain, on 02 November 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

Just go to mediums.

But I won't have fond memories of doing a mechwarrior 2 speedrun with a Firemoth boating small pulse lasers anymore!

Still, good idea. I'll switch to mediums.

[skullman86]

I believe I was running this before OB. Haven't put the c-bills down on it yet because I was waiting for the DHS patch.

HBK-4G

Endo steel
1x med pulse laser
2x med lasers
AC/20
STD200 engine w/ 2 extra DHS

I think mechlab said I was getting like 1.2 heat efficiency with that, but I don't know the the entire story behind the bug and whether or not mechlab's stats were being calculated correctly.


STD200 engine is 8 heatsinks, right?

EDIT: Right now I'm using a weaker version of that build (2 small lasers, 1 med laser) with 12 HS, so that is 12 points. Looks like DHS puts me at 14 points (yay)

1.4 points x 8 engine DHS = 11.2 points
1.4 points x 2 additional DHS = 2.8 points

11.2 + 2.8 = 14 points

Additional heatsinks seem to provide diminishing returns, so it looks like engine HS are 0.1 each and each additional HS is about 0.05. That should make engine DHS 0.14 each (0.1 x 1.4) and make additional DHS around .07 each (.05 x 1.4).

0.14 x 8 = 1.12 base heat efficiency
0.07 x 2 = 0.14 additional efficiency

1.12 + 0.14 = 1.26 total efficiency which will likely lose 0.12 with the upgrade to the single mpulse and dual medlas. (exchanging the 2 small lasers and 2 medlasers for the 2 medlasers and the 1 med pulse and there is a 0.12 point efficiency difference)

If my numbers are correct, I should be hovering around ****drum roll, please**** 1.14 heat efficiency with the update...

...1.17 efficiency if I swap out the medpulse for a medlaser. I guess having the same range with all 3 lasers is a plus.

----------------------

On the other hand...

If DHS were worth 0.2 in the engine and 0.1 for each additional HS instead of 0.14/.07 (singles are 0.1/0.5), I would be at a heat efficiency of 1.68. I can't really speak on behalf of all builds, but mine would be close to heat neutral if DHS were worth double, and I can see why that might be a problem.

Edited by skullman86, 02 November 2012 - 04:53 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

WardenWolf, on 02 November 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

It is somewhat better at just the 10 engine heatsinks, and better (but with reduced advantage compared to today) up to 6 additional DHS. At 7 DHS or more, though, the new rules will be *worse* than today (with the 'bugged' DHS). See here:

http://mwomercs.com/...89#entry1336489

Yeah going to be useless for all my builds and future planned builds. I need to be able to sink at least 26 heat on both my the mechs/builds I was planning on using primarily and that is just barely enough. Probalem is I can only allocate room 14 heat sinks on one mech and I think 15 on the other. 14 DHS at 1.4 cooling on give 19.2 SHS equalvancy. Definately better than what I could do with singles but well shy of the 26 I need. The sad part as both these builds are only using 2 Large Lasers and 2 Medium lasers which aren't even super high heat weapons and weren't even remotely close to heat neutral even at the normal 2.0 rate.

Honestly I think this is what annoys me the most. They claim that at the 2.0 rate heat is no longer an issue.....I would like to know just what game they are playing because I loaded up a Dragon with these 2 Lg and 2 Md Lasers prior to the DHS patch and even with 28 SHS, trying to run this limited set up required me to keep an eye on my heat and really pay attention to just how much I could fire both the larges and the mediums. Hell I still ended up Overheating my mech at times.

No way in Hell that heat becomes a non-issue at 2.0 for the DHS, not with weapons still doing 3x the rate of fire. I call total BS on this one.

[Galaxy Drifter]

This has been my most played build. Heat was manageable, but with the new system, I don't think I can play it:


Chassis Name: Atlas
Model Name: AS7-D
Variant Name: Founders-D

Engine: 320 Reg Engine
Internal Type: Std Internals
Armor Type: Std Armor
Heat Sinks: 23 (12) Double Heat Sinks

Tonnage: 96.50
Speed: 51.8 kph
Armor Total: 608
Alpha Strike Damage: 39.00
Alpha Strike Heat: 32.00
Firepower: 9.97 dps
Heat Efficiency: 57.53%
Effective Range of Loadout: 300m


Right Arm:
Large Pulse Laser
Double Heat Sink
Double Heat Sink

Left Arm:
Large Pulse Laser
Double Heat Sink
Double Heat Sink

Right Torso:
Double Heat Sink
Double Heat Sink
Double Heat Sink
Double Heat Sink

Left Torso:
Streak SRM2
Streak SRM2
Double Heat Sink
Double Heat Sink
Double Heat Sink

Center Torso:
ER Large Laser
* Added - there are 3 DHS placed into engine slots

Head:

Right Leg:
AMS Ammo

Left Leg:
Streak SRM Ammo
Streak SRM Ammo

File created using MWO Mechbay

[Cataphract]

I now have to reconvert every single one of my mechs back to singles because not a single one will benefit from the DHS change. Right now my focus is Catapults and are of the following. All of which now will either not change or actually lose efficiency from any configuration of DHS regardless of loud out. Hell I was gonna buy a 9M when DHS got "fixed" now its more junk than the 8Q.

CAT-C1
Armament - LRM 15 x2, Med Laser x4
DHS 16 - Current = 22 - NEW 1.4 = 22.4 - IF 2.0 = 32

CAT-K2 Primary
Armament - Large Pulse x2, Med Laser x2
DHS 22 - Current = 34 - NEW 1.4 = 30.8 - IF 2.0 = 44

CAT-K2 Secondary
Armament - AC2x2, Med Laser x4
DHS 19 - Current = 28 - NEW 1.4 = 26.6 - IF 2.0 = 38

CAT-A1 Primary
Armament - SSRM2 x6
DHS 21 - Current = 32 - NEW 1.4 = 29.4 - IF 2.0 = 42


CAT-A1 Second
Armament - LRM5 x6
DHS 18 - Current = 26 - NEW 1.4 = 25.2 - IF 2.0 = 36

In all Iterations of my loudouts DHS arent worth the 1.5M Cbill "Upgrade" anymore with. If I wanted to bring the mechs to a better efficiency level I might as well get Endo Steel for about 450k per mech and scrap the DHS all together. I for one will no longer use large scale beam weapons untill DHS are at least 1.8 of what they should be and if the heat really is going up then I wont use LL, ERLL, LPLS, PPC or ERPPC unless DHS are a full 2.0 heat. My advice to anyone because we cant expect resets to reimburse anything we do is to completely avoid beam boating with Awesomes, Atlas, Cats, or Hunchies unless using SMLAS. I would especially avoid the 9M Awesome all together as thats just a junk mech compared to its cost and because 20 DHS will only equal 28 SHS. This change wouldn't be so bad to test out if we didn't have to throw away 1.5m Cbils to convert or another 750k to go back to singles every time we wanted to compare a loud out. Hell I might as well bust out that Gauss cat again.... :\.

Edited by Cataphract, 02 November 2012 - 04:26 PM.

[Garth Erlam]

Vassago Rain, on 02 November 2012 - 01:44 PM, said:

Yeah, we're not testing anymore. Now it's about making a nestegg for 'community warfare,' whenever that hits, and practicing with proven guns.

The climate changed a lot in just a few days, but the devs are clueless to this, too.

Man, I can't wait to see your game

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

The following is based on Math. I'm hoping I got it right, so here goes nothing...

I'd love to run my Founder's Jenner with true DHS. Currently I have the following:

Stock Engine
2 SL
2 SRM4
2 tons SRM Ammo
CASE
AMS
1 ton AMS Ammo
1 extra HS
Extra Armor

It runs hot, and the bug fix for the SLs will make it even hotter. Currently it does 14 heat per alpha, with 11 heat dissipated per 10 seconds. Over the course of a furious battle (assuming posted stats are as listed on the forums and not bugged to be low), I should over 10 seconds be generating roughly 13 heat from the SLs, and 16 heat from the SRMs, while dissipating 11 heat. This nets 18 heat built up over 10 seconds of firing on the cooldown. With DHS, changing nothing else in the build, it'd come out to 7 net heat built up over 10 seconds, which is much better. At 1.4, it'd instead be 15.4 heat lost, so a net build up of 13.6 heat per 10 seconds. It's a bit better than singles, but hardly worth the cost. The short-term DPS and burst damage would be the same regardless. The only thing that would change would be long-term DPS, and considering the weapons I'm rolling with that doesn't seem unreasonable.

What I want to do is put in the following:
300XL
4 SL
2 SRM4
3 tons SRM Ammo
AMS
1 ton AMS Ammo
0 extra HS
Endo Steel
Extra Armor

That comes to 18 heat per alpha, and roughly 42 heat per 10 seconds gross generated (not counting movement and such). With SHS, of course that would heat me up super extra fast, with a net over 10 seconds of 32 heat. With true DHS, that drops to 22 heat, which is quite a bit (and higher than my SHS stock build; those 2 extra SLs really add up). With 1.4x DHS, the heat dissipation is 14 per 10 seconds, meaning I'd have a net build up of 28, which is a trivial change from 32 and pretty significant from 22.

In fact, I may just have talked myself into dropping those extra 2 SLs. The added heat per seconds makes me wonder if more armor wouldn't be a better choice.

Of course, it still seems to me like the first thing that should be changed is the heatsink timescale. If weapons are generally around a 3 second cooldown, then for heat to be at all balanced (especially for trial mechs and big energy guns) the heat dissipation timescale should be lowered from 10 seconds. 7 seconds, 5 seconds, whatever. It'd be a variable that could be tweaked in isolation from everything else to reach a more reasonable, balanced relationship between heat generation and heat dissipation. Once some kind of workable equilibrium is reached between those two things, then individual item values (DHS, PPCs, ER weapons, etc.) can be looked at.

[Vapor Trail]

Ok, this is a bit of a stretch, but extrapolating out 1.4 heat sinks to clan times:

Warhawk "Metallic Fog"
similar in design philosophy to "Warhawk Tara"

85 ton Omni
340XL

Base Chassis capable of carrying a 58 ton armor and weapons loadout.

4 C ER PPC (24 tons)
1 ECM Suite (1 ton)
20 extra double heat sinks (20 tons). This should give a 6.0 Heat Dissipation rate. With planned change will give a 4.2 HdR.
13 tons of Standard armor (13 tons this may vary if ECM goes up in tonnage cost).

Crits
(requires placement of 17 cDHS)

LA/RA
Shoulder
UAA
LAA
cERPPC-2
cERPPC-2
cDHS-2
cDHS-2
empty-1

LT/RT

XL-2
cDHS-2
cDHS-2
cDHS-2
cDHS-2
cDHS-2

Head
Life Support
Sensors
Cockpit
ECM-1
Sensors
Lifesupport

CT
XL-6
cDHS-2

LL/RL
Hip
ULA
LLA
Foot
cDHS-2

---

Average rate of fire on this build, standing still was one salvo every 10 seconds (heat neutral @ Max TT RoF).

Average rate of fire on this build, standing still, with proposed DHS change, propogated out to Clan DHS:

15 heat per shot per cERPPC:
One salvo every 14.29 seconds.

13 heat per shot per cERPPC:
One salvo every 12.38 seconds.

In other words, 60 damage every ~12 seconds.
"What's your problem? You're doing 60 damage every 12 seconds!"

It costs me 44 tons and 42 crits to do this.

Clan Gauss: 12 tons 6 criticals.
*4 weapons = 48 tons 24 crits. + ammo.
Average rate of fire (extrapolated) once every 4 seconds.
Damage per salvo (extrapolated) 15 per weapon or 60.

4 * cGauss setup is four tons heavier (without ammo, and each ton of ammo taken is two and a half salvos, extrapolated)
It equals the best possible damage per salvo (60)
and is three TIMES better at damage output over time.

Which means a dual Gauss setup, carrying 8 tons of ammo (each ton of ammo is five salvos, extrapolated),
24 tons 12 crits for the weapons + 8 tons 8 crits for ammo = 32 tons 20 crits

Deals 30 damage every 4 seconds.

Therefore a weapon system setup 72.73% the weight, and 45.45% of the critical space deals damage at a rate one and a half TIMES my average rate.

---

Assuming 13 heat per shot:
At absolute best (assuming I get a heat cap of 30+30 =60) the Fog can do in the shortest amount of time, without shutdown, with continuous fire, is a single full salvo (@ t=0, resulting in 52 heat, which cools to 39.4). Now I can only fire single shots.
First shot comes @ t= 3 (heat 39.4, spikes to 52.4).
Second shot comes @ t= 4.5 (heat cools to 46.1, spikes to 59.1).
Third shot comes @ t = 7.39 (heat cools to just under 47, spikes to just under 60).
Fourth shot comes @ t= 10.49 (heat cools to just under 47, spikes to just under 60,)
and each shot thereafter comes after a 3.1 second delay. This is heat neutral fire tempo.

So I'm reduced to a heat neutral fire tempo @ ten and a half seconds from my engaging salvo. Total damage output in that time is 8 shots, or 120 damage.
Dual Gauss matches that at 12 seconds (Salvos of 30 fired @ 0, 4, 8, and 12), and then pulls away quickly.

Edited by Vapor Trail, 02 November 2012 - 04:49 PM.

[Tykelau]

Garth Erlam, on 02 November 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

Man, I can't wait to see your game

unclassy

[Urza Mechwalker]

Garth Erlam, on 02 November 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

Man, I can't wait to see your game

Do you realize that some of the peopel that play this game, do work (or did worked in my case, europe was too cold for me) for other computer game projects that are still far ahead success wise than MWO? Of course you know very well (as I am sure your employer also demkand) that you cannot identify within any gaming media related to a game from another company that you took part on a specific title?

And many others that never worked in game industry realize very well how to evaluate game balance and game mechanics changes?

[Weaselball]

Garth Erlam, on 02 November 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

Man, I can't wait to see your game

Garth, while you're here, any chance that we can see the price for using DHS dropped while you guys monkey around with their values? Seems kinda silly to be charging people 1.5 mil c-bills for something that has the potential to change in such a degree that they might no longer want / need them.

If not dropping the price (temporarily) to zero, how about settle on a much more manageable number? Like 500,000?

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Garth Erlam, on 02 November 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

Man, I can't wait to see your game

Unfortunately we have seen yours, I think it's time for a break.

[Mister Blastman]

All the builds I was planning were based on 2.0 DHS. Now they're all dead.

I don't need to try the builds out in game either as I have found a nice tool which lets me do everything I need:

http://remlab.sourceforge.net/

It is basically pointless now. Dragons are set to be a limited number of builds along with all the other mechs. 2.0 DHS were supposed to give us a lot more flexibility. Now we won't see it. I was going to be able to pick between XL and STD engines for one... now I lose that whole choice. It's gone. Dust in the wind now.

[NovaFury]

Garth Erlam, on 02 November 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

Man, I can't wait to see your game

The work was already done for you. You simply chose to ignore it.

Edit, clarity: If it isn't obvious, you could monkey around with the fire rates and keep the damage, and, ergo, heat generated per ten seconds the same with tabletop weapons. So if I fire a medium laser 3 times in 10 seconds, it would still only generate 3 heat, and all three shots, combined, would do five damage. Could keep armor the same too, and would only really need to implement things like fractional damage.

And, though it is unclassy to take this bait, I work and design tabletop roleplaying games, and aided the 2.5E Eratta for Exalted, solving many problems with that system.

Edited by NovaFury, 02 November 2012 - 04:53 PM.

[Xetelian]

Founders Atlas overheating all day long

[Caladan Nix]

Garth Erlam, on 02 November 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

Man, I can't wait to see your game

Don't bite the hands that feed you.

[Mister Blastman]

Garth Erlam, on 02 November 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

Man, I can't wait to see your game

Garth, sorry, but some of us have been playing Mechwarrior in various iterations for 16+ years.

How long have you been playing Mechwarrior?

Some of us don't need to make our own game or see how things play out. We've seen it all before. We know what will happen when something is tweaked in a certain way. History repeats itself.

So, Garth, how long have you been playing Mechwarrior?

As a business owner/operator you must remember a couple things:

1. Never insult the customer.
2. If the customer insults you--take it and then learn from it to be a better business to the customer.
3. The customer pays your salary and bills. Without them, you are nothing. Product or no product.