310 replies to this topic

[Flit Asuno]

Insidious Johnson, on 02 November 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

I cannot be convinced that PGI will ever settle on 'final' stats for pretty much anything. Attempts at ongoing balance means "don't get comfortable in one build".

Unless it's the gauss cat. Cause that thing is going to stay solid forever.

[LaserAngel]

I just stopped all my friends for making anymore DHS purchases for the near future. This was our last great hope for making large energy weapons somewhat viable. The fix for Small/Pulse weapon heat generation made sense as much as I didn't like it.

Even the current wonky system made DHS worthwhile to save tonnage for standard engines and survivability.

Edited by LaserAngel, 02 November 2012 - 07:46 PM.

[Farmer]

LaserAngel, on 02 November 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

I just stopped all my friends for making anymore DHS purchases for the near future. This was our last great hope for making large energy weapons somewhat viable. The fix for Small/Pulse weapon heat generation made sense as much as I didn't like it.

The best part? Pulse weapons were balanced with the assumption that they're be combined with DHS in TT. So by nerfing DHS, then INCREASING the heat generated by L2 tech, they're more or less forcing the game to take place in 3025.

[Flit Asuno]

Until the devs decide to actually tweak weapon values in a meaningful way. (Something that closed beta would've been good for, and the players begged for but were denied). You're not going to see PPC, ERPPC, Large Lasers, ER Large Lasers, Large Pulse Lasers, Flamers, Machine Guns, AC/20, or AC/10 be viable weapons when compared to the Gauss Rifle, Medium Laser, Small Laser, AC/2 and UAC/5 (Oh who am I kidding no one uses this ******* thing since the jamming mechanic).

Half of the available weapons in the game (missiles not included at the moment in this list) are clearly not as good as the other weapons listed. The only reason you don't see people boating these weapons is thanks to the hard point system. One of the few good things they did, but unfortunately didn't fully implement from one of the older Mechwarrior games. Hardpoint sizes.

They're paranoid about boating lasers so they keep heatsinks not only operating at one third of the heat dissipation they should for MWO when every weapon fires three times faster on average. They then also even momentarily consider crippling DHS to 1.4 heat instead of 2.0. Taht barely makes them worth it at all even for light mechs, which would be the biggest to benefit. Since they often have a plethora of crit slots but not tonnage.

Honestly, I'm still hopeful this game can be turned around. But either IGPs influence or just sheer stubborness from the dev/designers is crippling this game. I get the distinct impression they won't realize their mistake until well past the point that the game's reputation and future was salvageable.

[Vassago Rain]

Farmer, on 02 November 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

The best part? Pulse weapons were balanced with the assumption that they're be combined with DHS in TT. So by nerfing DHS, then INCREASING the heat generated by L2 tech, they're more or less forcing the game to take place in 3025.

Well, you know, age of war: real man's battletech, and all that.

[Farmer]

Yeah. The 10 in engine as SHS sucked for light lights that depended on those engine HS's after 3039, this hurts most post 3039 lights. Yes, a custom light can tweak and min max. But stock loadouts are even less viable now.

[Lightfoot]

Okay. I want to run the stock AWS-9M. It has 20 DHS which I believe is currently the value of 30 single heatsinks and after the patch will be 28 single heatsinks. The problem with the AWS-9M is it doesn't run now. After firing 3-4 times it shutsdown for 30-40 seconds, depending on enviornment. If you shutdown for 30 seconds in combat, you certainly died.

I was thinking that 20 Double heatsinks at 2.0 might make the AWS-9M run. I don't see how it can run with the equivalent on 28 heatsinks.

Edited by Lightfoot, 02 November 2012 - 07:58 PM.

[Flit Asuno]

Lightfoot, on 02 November 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

Okay. I want to run the stock AWS-9M. It has 20 DHS which I believe is currently the value of 30 single heatsinks and after the patch will be 28 single heatsinks. The problem with the AWS-9M is it doesn't run now. After firing 3-4 times it shutsdown for 30-40 seconds, depending on enviornment. If you shutdown for 30 seconds in combat, you certainly died.

I was thinking that 20 Double heatsinks at 2.0 might make the AWS-9M run. I don't see how it can run with the equivalent on 28 heatsinks.

You just need to stop spamming your weapons you unskilled noob.

In all seriousness, it's obvious the heat generation is a problem. So they either need to put us back to 10 second firing windows on every weapon in the game. Or increase heat dissipation rates on heat sinks to mirror the rate of fire increases. Which is likely not going to happen. Because I'm basically saying what people have been saying for months during closed beta about heat and how it's a major problem.

[LaserAngel]

Farmer, on 02 November 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

The best part? Pulse weapons were balanced with the assumption that they're be combined with DHS in TT. So by nerfing DHS, then INCREASING the heat generated by L2 tech, they're more or less forcing the game to take place in 3025.

Well we're currently running at something like L1.5 technology right now. I can understand how they dragged out the x1.4 value but it's still nonsense.

From here on out the TT builds pretty much require DHS to be 2.0 from here on out and ship stock or get retrofitted to DHS. We don't even have the Clans in yet. Maybe they should have stuck with strictly Level 1 technology until this was sorted out.

[Flit Asuno]

LaserAngel, on 02 November 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

Well we're currently running at something like L1.5 technology right now. I can understand how they dragged out the x1.4 value but it's still nonsense.

From here on out the TT builds pretty much require DHS to be 2.0 from here on out and ship stock or get retrofitted to DHS. We don't even have the Clans in yet. Maybe they should have stuck with strictly Level 1 technology until this was sorted out.

Based on the problem with heat sinks not dissipating heat quickly enough in general even level 1 technology seems to be too much of an issue.

[Farmer]

I really want to see how they make the Timberwolf Prime work. Even with CDHS working at a full double the paybload will make it pop.

EDIT: I should point out that my Raven 3L currently runs 12 DHS and 3xMLAS. Firing those for ~20 seconds will shut me down. The Prime only has 17 DHS, and considerably bigger weapons. It's borked.

Edited by Farmer, 02 November 2012 - 08:19 PM.

[w00tzor]

1.4 DHS will kill most of the builds using big energy weapons out there, this is just non sense.

When i saw that post i thought it was a joke.

[LaserAngel]

Flit Asuno, on 02 November 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

Based on the problem with heat sinks not dissipating heat quickly enough in general even level 1 technology seems to be too much of an issue.

I wasn't here for the earlier eras but it sounds like the armor doubling and x2 firing rate per 10 seconds compared to tabletop made the game pace more manageable for a real time FPS. I can understand that, matches were long and drawn out for minimal C-Bill grind, etc. and/or you didn't survive long enough with stock armor values. Heat tweaking is still dragged along behind those original pace fixes.

I don't really have any problems currently near boating x4 Small Lasers on my Hunchback 4SP 10 HS + 6 DHS and people talk about endless alpha Jenner builds with x6 Small Lasers in theory craft.

I think another approach is that even if you're making smaller mechs with screwy netcode and speed more viable heat wise, you're still not increasing their survivability armor wise. I can understand the concern that use, said Jenner can fire those small lasers endlessly but they tonnage you save isn't going for more KPH or more armor. You're pretty much maxed out there.

Now once you bring x6 Medium Laser Jenners, I can see the concern but in addition to making such a build "playable" with the current heat system you're also completely shafting the other end of the spectrum where the Large Laser and PPCs live along with the assaults.

I'll admit the Gauss cat is pure cheese and missiles (LRM or SSRM) suck when Streakpulted or indirect fire spammed but we held out so long on having double heat sinks making more build options viable only to get shafted with DHS x1.4.

I'm not making much sense anymore and need some sleep...

[Farmer]

Actually, what the earlier games liked was to increase ROF but decrease damage and heat output so that the same damage was done, on average, over ten seconds. No need to increase armor or do any kind of funky math. If you multiply the first by three, you divide the second two by three. If there's a problem, you decrease the number you divide the second two by. When you get those numbers down to where you want, you tweak ammo so it comes out even(ish).

[ManDaisy]

I can't wait till they add in additional heat penalities .

[Vassago Rain]

LaserAngel, on 02 November 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

I wasn't here for the earlier eras but it sounds like the armor doubling and x2 firing rate per 10 seconds compared to tabletop made the game pace more manageable for a real time FPS. I can understand that, matches were long and drawn out for minimal C-Bill grind, etc. and/or you didn't survive long enough with stock armor values. Heat tweaking is still dragged along behind those original pace fixes.

I don't really have any problems currently near boating x4 Small Lasers on my Hunchback 4SP 10 HS + 6 DHS and people talk about endless alpha Jenner builds with x6 Small Lasers in theory craft.

I think another approach is that even if you're making smaller mechs with screwy netcode and speed more viable heat wise, you're still not increasing their survivability armor wise. I can understand the concern that use, said Jenner can fire those small lasers endlessly but they tonnage you save isn't going for more KPH or more armor. You're pretty much maxed out there.

Now once you bring x6 Medium Laser Jenners, I can see the concern but in addition to making such a build "playable" with the current heat system you're also completely shafting the other end of the spectrum where the Large Laser and PPCs live along with the assaults.

I'll admit the Gauss cat is pure cheese and missiles (LRM or SSRM) suck when Streakpulted or indirect fire spammed but we held out so long on having double heat sinks making more build options viable only to get shafted with DHS x1.4.

I'm not making much sense anymore and need some sleep...

They didn't understand what they were doing, so ported everything, like microsoft tried with MW3. Like there, they had to double the armor. In MW3, armor is twice as effective. Here, it lists twice the points.

Part of this stupid idea that dubs should be 1.4 is that they obviously want you to buy expensive ammo, and not use 'free' lasers every single game.

[Flit Asuno]

ManDaisy, on 02 November 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

I can't wait till they add in additional heat penalities .

I think that day will be known as "The Exodus".

[jubbly]

We'll see how it works out next week but I'm gonna guess my tripple PPC K2 is gonna turn into a gauss K2. I've been trying hard to do something other then a gauss cat. My PPC build was doing ok but a bit on the hot side. The loss of 3 singles worth will kill it.

[nungunz]

JR7-D

x4 Medium Laser

x2 SSRM

XL Engine 275

Single Heat Sink
1.4 Heat Per Second

Current w/ DHS
1.8 Heat Per Second

Proposed (.14) DHS
1.96 Heat Per Second

Cannon (.2 DHS)
2.8 Heat Per Second

Conclusion
So by massively increasing my costs (and repair costs), I get an additional .56 HPS when I should be getting an additional 1.4 HPS. Helps me a little bit, I guess....but as a Jenner the extra .56 really doesn't matter so this upgrade isn't really worth paying the premium and increased repair costs.

[Sa7aN]

Ansel, on 02 November 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

Their example mech literaly dosn't exist.

Keep in mind they used the phrase "increasing DPS exponentially on certain types of mech loadouts".



That phrase dosn't mean what they think it means.