23 replies to this topic

[Draco Argentum]

So according to the poll 80% of people don't like the current Mech XP system. This is my attempt at a better one. http://mwomercs.com/...-uninteresting/


Design Goals

The overall goal is to fix the problems identified with the Mech XP system with particular focus on the lack of choices. It will also retain the grind but move it around. It will also try to encourage people to try different chassis/variants without being as heavy handed as the current system. The system should not encourage boating too greatly.


Structure

Players will unlock abilities and place them into slots. Each mech in the mechbay will have its own ability config saved with it. You will eventually earn enogh XP to unlock every ability but the number of slots is fixed so you will always have to make choices about what abilities you bring to a match.

There will be four pools of abilities:

Mech Abilities, these abilities will be fairly generic. Once unlocked they can be used on any mech. They are designed to be boosts that are available to all mechs. If someone has a suggestion for a better name I'm all ears. There will be twenty of these.

Weight Class Abilities, these abilities apply to a specific weight class. Once unlocked they can be used on any mech of the appropriate weight class. They are designed as boosts that support they play style of a weight class. Making them per weight class allows similar abilities for each weight class to have different numeric boosts. It also allows for abilities that aren’t available to all weight classes. There will be twenty of these per weight class.

Chassis Abilities, these abilities apply to a specific chassis. Once unlocked they can be used on any variant of that chassis. They are designed to support the role that a chassis is intended for. Fire support, scout, EW, brawler etc. This allows a chassis access to abilities that support/reinforce its role. It will also help prevent chassis from becoming gunbags as more chassis are added. There will be ten of these per chassis, not all will be unique to that chassis though.

Variant Abilities, these abilities apply to a specific variant. Once unlocked they can only be used on that one variant. These are intended to be similar to the quirks system in that they further differentiate the variants. There will be three of these per variant.


Like abilities there will be different types of slot:

4 Weight Class Slots, these slots can accept Mech or Weight Class abilities.

2 Chassis Slots, these slots can accept Mech, Weight Class or Chassis Abilities.

1 Variant Slot, this slot can accept any type of ability.


Abilities

Abilities should be designed in accordance with this: "A large conditional bonus by contrast gives you something as a reward for playing a certain way. Its more interactive and skill based. A large bonus that is always on is less interesting but might still change tactics. Small bonuses usually won't change tactics, just improve existing ones." Therefore small constant bonuses should not be used too frequently.

Percentage bonuses are to be avoided as they encourage boating. Take the 2.5% heat efficiency bonus from the current system as an example. With the minimum 10 heat sinks you get 1/4 of a heat sink from it. But with 40 heat sinks you get 1. Clearly you'd want to use it on an energy boat but not gausszilla. Its a non choice that makes boats better.

Flat Simple DPS boosts should be kept to an absolute minimum and no variant should be able to take more than two. They should also not be weapon type specific to avoid encouraging boating.

On to some examples. These are very up in the air and need a lot more thought than I've given them. Suggest your own!

Mech Abilities:
Dissipate 0.2 extra heat per second.
Startup/Shutdown faster.

Weight Class Abilities:
Light: 110% throttle, more speed by excessive heat generation above 100% throttle.
Assault: Armoured, max amour increased by 10 per location. You still have to pay the weight for the extra armour.

Chassis Abilities:
Raven: Increased sensor range when jammed by ECM by 200m.
Hunchback: Armoured, max amour increased by 10 per location. You still have to pay the weight for the extra armour. (This is an example of giving a chassis something from another weight class to reinforce that it acts differently to other members of that weight class.)

Variant Abilities:
Missile bay door opening speed increase. (technical DPS increase but its just raising it closer to the level of a mech with no doors)


New Player Experience

New players will start with 7 Mech abilities already unlocked. This will mean they are not too far behind the power level of a veteran with everything unlocked. The six abilities selected will be the easiest to use. The Increased Heat Dissipation ability is a perfect example of the sort of thing that would be a good choice.


Paying For You Abilities

Disclaimer, I don’t like the GXP system that much but it’s in the game so I’m working with it.

Just like the current system each variant will have its own pool of xp that you earn in matches. You can buy Variant Abilities with this pool. You can convert this to Chassis XP to buy Chassis Abilties. Chassis XP can be converted to Weight Class XP and Weight Class XP can be converted to Mech XP. At each step you have a choice, do it for free and lose 20% of your XP or pay MC and lose none. This means that if you convert for free you end up with only 51.2% XP left by the time it converts to Mech XP. If that’s too grindy it can be tuned but remember that you only have to unlock those once ever. Obviously the UI would need to let you make multiple jumps in one action to avoid the tedium of converting three times to bump XP from Variant to Mech.



Issues addressed
Using the number from here: http://mwomercs.com/...-uninteresting/
1) Boring Abilities: Not addressed by the overall system, individual abilities still need to be made interesting.
2) No Choices: Fixed, you now have many choices.
3) Have to play varients you don't want to: Fixed, you can play a single variant forever if you really want.
4) Possibly have to play the same role more than once: Fixed, you only have to play a role once, or not at all if you aren't interested in it.
6) Discourages people from trying new chassis: Heavily mitigated: Since you only need one variant its not a huge deal to change weight class. You are still down on the Weight Class slot abilities so there is some barrier to entry, its just much lower.


Known Issues

Issue 5 isn’t strongly addressed, variant and chassis specific abilities help somewhat but there is still reduced grind for subsequent mechs.

This system does have the downside of creating more work for the devs. Every new chassis and variant comes with a requirement to create and balance some new abilities. While inevitable in a system with more variety it is worth pointing out.

[Telthalion]

I like it.

If the bonuses are well-designed, it gives a lot of potential for personalizing your 'mech to fit your playstyle. And is far better than the current one.

[Draco Argentum]

Telthalion, on 02 November 2012 - 05:16 PM, said:

I like it.

If the bonuses are well-designed, it gives a lot of potential for personalizing your 'mech to fit your playstyle. And is far better than the current one.

Yeah, theres the hard part. Designing this was pretty easy. Creating something like 100 abilities that are balanced and interesting will be more work and much harder.

[Kaijin]

Draco Argentum, on 02 November 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

Yeah, theres the hard part. Designing this was pretty easy. Creating something like 100 abilities that are balanced and interesting will be more work and much harder.

I can come up with 200 additional skills right off the bat.

Energy Weapon Tuning
-1% heat per level. 25 levels
+1% maximum range per level. 25 levels
-1% recycle per level. 25 levels

Ballistic Tuning
-1% heat per level. 25 levels
+1% higher velocity per level. 25 levels
-1% recycle per level. 25 levels

Missile System Tuning
-1% heat per level. 25 levels
-1% time to lock per level. 25 levels
-1% recycle per level. 25 levels

JumpJet Tuning
+1% burn time per level. 25 levels
-1% recharge time per level. 25 levels

Edited by Kaijin, 03 November 2012 - 12:06 AM.

[Freeride Forever]

Sounds interesting. I think there are much more important issues to deal with right now & lots of 'em, assuming that the current MXP system is an issue at all.

[joker1974]

Any system without the 3 variant Mech XP system is better.

[Draco Argentum]

Kaijin, on 03 November 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

I can come up with 200 additional skills right off the bat.

The problem is that only the jumpjets one meets the criteria I laid out for good ability design. And multiple ranks is a bad idea which is not part of the proposal so you have two potential abilities.

[Pangorin]

I voted "somewhat better" but to be honest, with real ideas to improve the system, I actually don´t like it as it is, we have to wait until the implementation of the complete Pilot Skills.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

great idea.And adding more levels for skills make the game stay longer

[Kaijin]

Draco Argentum, on 03 November 2012 - 04:32 AM, said:

The problem is that only the jumpjets one meets the criteria I laid out for good ability design. And multiple ranks is a bad idea which is not part of the proposal so you have two potential abilities.

'the criteria for good ability design'

Get over yourself.

[IrrelevantFish]

In this context, I don't think your system's a good one. It's more fun in theory but it's bad for the devs and for noobs for the following reasons:

1) The 3 variant system encourages people to take the shortcut of paying real $$$.
2) As you mentioned, balancing would be hellaciously difficult.
3) Unless the abilities are relatively subtle, noobs will be at an even bigger disadvantage.

It's not like I'm a fan of the current system, either, but I see the reasoning behind it. In a single-player game or for experienced players, your system would be a whole lot more fun, but MWO isn't single-player and it would be a shame to make this game any more noob-unfriendly than it already is.

[Draco Argentum]

IrrelevantFish, on 06 November 2012 - 12:16 AM, said:

It's not like I'm a fan of the current system, either, but I see the reasoning behind it. In a single-player game or for experienced players, your system would be a whole lot more fun, but MWO isn't single-player and it would be a shame to make this game any more noob-unfriendly than it already is.

Right, thats why all accounts get 7 abilities unlocked for free. That way they have enough to fill every slot and will only be a bit behind in power. This is actually an improvement on the current system in that regard.

[IrrelevantFish]

Draco Argentum, on 06 November 2012 - 01:05 AM, said:

Right, thats why all accounts get 7 abilities unlocked for free. That way they have enough to fill every slot and will only be a bit behind in power. This is actually an improvement on the current system in that regard.

My apologies. It appears I somehow failed to grasp your system, even though you laid it out quite clearly. I read through it again just now and like it a whole lot more.

However, my other points still stand. I'd propose something like Diablo 3's leveling/skill/rune system:

• Pilots level-up as they accumulate GXP, which makes additional modules (ie, D3's skills) and efficiencies (ie, D3's runes) that modify those modules' functionality available for purchase with C-Bills and XP, respectively.
  
• The amount of GXP that can be earned using a single variant is capped, but modules may be equipped in any variant with a compatible slot.
  
• Each module slot has an associated hot-key used to trigger/toggle it during a match. Holding the key down opens the "Efficiency-Selection Menu." There would be a cool-down period after a switch.
  
• To simplify controls, some functions that are currently stand-alone are lumped into universally-equipped modules like "Vision," "Sensors," etc. (ie, instead of having separate buttons for thermal and night vision, you'd select the "Thermal" efficiency in the "Vision" module and then toggle the module on).

This would solve all the problems you referenced without increasing complexity or punishing the devs. They could even recycle many of the current, "boring" abilities. Cool Running and Heat Containment would become much more interesting if they were efficiencies in a module and players had to evaluate when to switch between them.

[Draco Argentum]

IrrelevantFish, on 06 November 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

My apologies. It appears I somehow failed to grasp your system, even though you laid it out quite clearly. I read through it again just now and like it a whole lot more.

I should have given it more attention, it is one of the primary design goals.

Quote

However, my other points still stand. I'd propose something like Diablo 3's leveling/skill/rune system:

My system doesn't force you to buy more mechs, but it does encourage you to have a go at them since you've already partly unlocked stuff on them. The PGI setup will be effective early on when you don't have a Mastered mech. Down the road when they introduce mech 30 it'll be much harder to convince people to leave their mastered mech to bother trying the latest one out. Thats why I made sampling much easier by allowing people to only use a single variant.

I did include an extra monetisation option to counter that short term cash loss though. Since you have to pay MC to convert variant xp upwards or lose some the devs will get cash early as well. I suspect this is where some of the down votes come from.

Balancing would be hard, I actually think finding 100 things that are unique will be harder thogh. Especially since those variant specific ones need to be thoght about every time there is a new variant.

Quote

• Pilots level-up as they accumulate GXP, which makes additional modules (ie, D3's skills) and efficiencies (ie, D3's runes) that modify those modules' functionality available for purchase with C-Bills and XP, respectively.
  
• The amount of GXP that can be earned using a single variant is capped, but modules may be equipped in any variant with a compatible slot.
  
• Each module slot has an associated hot-key used to trigger/toggle it during a match. Holding the key down opens the "Efficiency-Selection Menu." There would be a cool-down period after a switch.
  
• To simplify controls, some functions that are currently stand-alone are lumped into universally-equipped modules like "Vision," "Sensors," etc. (ie, instead of having separate buttons for thermal and night vision, you'd select the "Thermal" efficiency in the "Vision" module and then toggle the module on).

This would solve all the problems you referenced without increasing complexity or punishing the devs. They could even recycle many of the current, "boring" abilities. Cool Running and Heat Containment would become much more interesting if they were efficiencies in a module and players had to evaluate when to switch between them.

That actually is a cool system. I wouldn't call it simple to implement or play with though. Not that more complex gameplay would be bad.

[IrrelevantFish]

Draco Argentum, on 08 November 2012 - 01:58 AM, said:

That actually is a cool system. I wouldn't call it simple to implement or play with though. Not that more complex gameplay would be bad.

Apparently, my communication skills have tanked. What I meant to say was that players wouldn't have to keep track of three different kinds of experience/abilities or memorize a bunch of new buttons. There could even be an overall reduction, depending on how many game functions were lumped into modules.

Also, the devs wouldn't have to completely scrap the balance/design work they've already done, just shuffle it a bit. Nor should it require huge amounts of additional coding. If they've implemented dynamic entity attributes the way I'd imagine they have, they wouldn't even have to write any new Flowgraph nodes.

Draco Argentum said:

Balancing would be hard, I actually think finding 100 things that are unique will be harder thogh. Especially since those variant specific ones need to be thoght about every time there is a new variant.

Adding new gameplay elements is a lot harder than people think. Things which appear deceptively simple can be fiendishly difficult to code, and everything requires debugging, play-testing, and patching when something inevitably breaks.

[Khanahar]

Don't mind your system, though I would worry about its complexity.

That said, you can't pretend you're dealing with a fair poll due to the link in your profile (and the general tendency of polls to attract voters who aren't content with the way things are.)

[aspect]

Would like to see this kept on the first page for a while...

[Draco Argentum]

Khanahar, on 09 November 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

Don't mind your system, though I would worry about its complexity.

That said, you can't pretend you're dealing with a fair poll due to the link in your profile (and the general tendency of polls to attract voters who aren't content with the way things are.)

Actually the link in my sig goes to a different thread. See

IrrelevantFish, on 09 November 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

Adding new gameplay elements is a lot harder than people think. Things which appear deceptively simple can be fiendishly difficult to code, and everything requires debugging, play-testing, and patching when something inevitably breaks.

Oh I agree, I've seen some hilarious bugs in my time. Hilarious now at least, less funny at the time.* I count all of those about the same votes as 'don't change anything' becuase theres no point making user focused changes that the users aren't actively asking for. Its just pointless extra work.


*Protip, the database password for vCenter should not have a semicolon in it or the upgrade scripts will fail. No there isn't an error message logged even mentioning a password issue.

[BlackSquirrel]

Really need to make trees so not everyone IS THE FRIGGIN SAME!!!

Just saying.

[gregsolidus]

http://mwomercs.com/...you-do-not-own/