74 replies to this topic

[DrVulcan]

There is a simple misunderstanding here, please consider:
1) Not every 'torso twist' on every mech occurs at the same speed, some are slower than others
2) If your legs can rotate your entire mech at 10 degrees a second, and your torso can rotate your 'top' on your mech at 8 degrees per second, a 'unlocked view' would still rotate at 2 degrees per second towards the direction of your leg movement as your torso can not keep up.
3) If your legs can rotate your entire mech at 8 degrees a second and your torso can rotate your 'top' on your mech at 10 degrees per second, a 'unlocked view' would be able to keep up as your torso can rotate faster than your legs
The issue comes up that due to (1) and due to various effects, such as 'jump turns' the case for #3 is actually very rare to work out in this game. It turns out that all too often (2) is the case that occurs, so much so that if you were to implement an 'unlocked view' it would appear to only work or partially work very often, which would be worse for the players, also note the difference in torso twist amounts possible (try the catapult then get in a stalker and see how much different the torso twist max angle and speed are) would make this a very 'spotty' mechanic that would cause player frustration.

Note that it works for 'tank games' as (3) is always the case in those physics worlds, so this idea works.

Please also note that in 'real life' there are also no 'auto' turns like this, as when you do rotate your entire base, your top part turns with you, you must 'twist' left or right to compensate.

[shotokan5]

Maybe I missed something but I have been using torso twist for a long time. I now use a joystick all controls work except throttle. And my torso twist is backwards but I get used to it. some of these functions can't not be properly done until the last minute thanks to the genius that went with the cry engine in the first place. It seems at least to our fearless Canadians this game engine is jumping into a tornado. Don't jump off a cliff over it. Joke expires at 11:59 PM tonight. An American joke. Har , Har congress will still have jobs.

[MisterPlanetarian]

What the OP is describing is basically just what a Gyrostabilizer does in a modern day tank. It allows the driver to manouver the tank without affecting the aim of the gunner. It would be a pretty big boost to accuracy for any mech.

[Justin416]

DrVulcan, on 31 December 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

There is a simple misunderstanding here, please consider:
1) Not every 'torso twist' on every mech occurs at the same speed, some are slower than others
2) If your legs can rotate your entire mech at 10 degrees a second, and your torso can rotate your 'top' on your mech at 8 degrees per second, a 'unlocked view' would still rotate at 2 degrees per second towards the direction of your leg movement as your torso can not keep up.
3) If your legs can rotate your entire mech at 8 degrees a second and your torso can rotate your 'top' on your mech at 10 degrees per second, a 'unlocked view' would be able to keep up as your torso can rotate faster than your legs
The issue comes up that due to (1) and due to various effects, such as 'jump turns' the case for #3 is actually very rare to work out in this game. It turns out that all too often (2) is the case that occurs, so much so that if you were to implement an 'unlocked view' it would appear to only work or partially work very often, which would be worse for the players, also note the difference in torso twist amounts possible (try the catapult then get in a stalker and see how much different the torso twist max angle and speed are) would make this a very 'spotty' mechanic that would cause player frustration.

Note that it works for 'tank games' as (3) is always the case in those physics worlds, so this idea works.

Please also note that in 'real life' there are also no 'auto' turns like this, as when you do rotate your entire base, your top part turns with you, you must 'twist' left or right to compensate.

Should of, could of, would of ,blah, blah, blah.

All everyone is asking for here is AN option for independent torso aiming that is completely separate and free from movement controls, not some self-righteous explaination of why it wouldn't work for you.
I see people missing tons of shots all game long, myself included.
And why?
BECAUSE WE HAVE TO KEEP MOVING AND TURNING TO AVOID BEING GUNNED DOWN!!!
Missing shots simply because our aim is being forced to turn is completely unacceptable. And doesn't help anyone get any better, only more frustrated and displeased with the first ever Mechwarrior MMO. FYI this leads to one sided games, hell like maybe, and its a very rough maybe, one game per hour both teams have over four kills each. Yes I do understand that this is a simulation based FPS, and one sided matches are inevitable, but with virtually no match making what so ever, simple implementations like this WILL boost overall player performance and help everyone to a more enjoyful, and satisfying gaming experience rather than a dull, limited and frustrating one.

Imagine this game operating on a Service Record like WoT, where all of your actions are counted and there for everyone to see and critique. LMFAO all of you trolls with your tiny flame wands will be screaming in unison for options like this after your first game. And it will eventually come to this, if this game is ever going to compete with top F2P MMOs it will need a databank of all players that the hierarchy of major clans can pick and choose from to weed out the bad.

But hey bro, you can always go ahead and leave this option enabled if it hurts your feel bads that much.

Speaking for most everyone,
-Justin416

[Kalidar]

I used to explain repeatedly just how basic this idea is to the 'newcomers' who think they're experts on all aspects of mechs / robotics / servo control, aimbots, etc. The bleaiting negatives are just a brick wall of elitism with a think mortar of stupidity.

So I gave up explaining and just subscribed to the thread in the hope that one day a developer would pop his or her head up to bring some sanity to the discussion and bring some facts to the table about what is or isn't possible with regards to rotation/counter-rotation and the digital vs. analog speed controls involved.

[HickstyleZ]

PapaKilo, on 30 November 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

Yeah. This request really is auto-aim.

1. Lock onto target.
2. Aim point moves with target no matter what your 'Mech movement is.
3. ???
4. Profit.

Removes skill from aiming. That would only be acceptable if weapon fire was randomly rolled, like in the tabletop game.

Negative.

What they are saying would actually ADD difficulty to piloting, while at the same time let an advanced pilot have increased accuracy, at the cost of more brain function used to keep track of torso and body movements.

I.E. when you are at the end of your rotational range and a target is about to go off screen with this system you would have to move both your bottom half and your top half to re-aquire your target, instead of just having to turn the bottom half wich "automatically" turns your upper half, so in that situation it would be much MORE difficult every single time.

However in a situation were you are charging an enemy mech and u want to turn to the right and move that way but still target the enemy mech infront of you this change would make you more accurate

Finally say you have two targets want to shoot one target with your torso (because he has only 1 hit left) and because you are soo skilled you also want to shoot a second target with your arms at the same time, currently this is not possible due to the 'ease factor' MWO has for mech controls, in all reality all of these controls should be independent from each other...

SO i suggest.... 3 different control options available in the settings menu.

beginner(as currently implemented)

intermediate(independent upper and lower half, with standard integrated arms[as currently implemented])

advanced ( the third would have independent upper and lower half and also independent arms)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
A "control option" for this -- if you held down the "alt key" while moving the mouse it would connect the upper torso and arm targeting and when you let go the arms are now independent again by mouse and the upper torso is kind of "locked into place until you hold down the "alt key" again..

(or vice versa)...(<<<if that didnt make sense disregard)

so yes this change has its pros/cons.

Edited by HickstyleZ, 05 March 2013 - 07:02 PM.

[misterbk]

I have to put in my 2 cents for this change as well, even though I acknowledge the turn speed issue.

I think the obvious solution is an in-game pilot control to toggle gyro stabilizers on and off. Below I think I can address every objection I've seen in this thread to the idea of having that stabilization.

Gameplay:
Mechs are WAY more fun to pilot with a joystick. Locking the torso to the waist makes it nearly impossible to play with a joystick. My roommate and I both tried using a Saitek X52, and we both gave up as the game was uncontrollable even with all of those controls available. Both of us have played previous MW games using joysticks and do not remember this being such a problem in the past. (BTW we followed all of the guides. Everything works except for our inability to counter the leg twist and maintain aim.)

I realize most people are now playing with a keyboard and mouse. Countering that motion is easier with a keyboard and mouse. With a joystick it's unplayable.

Authenticity / Universe:
Look down while the mech startup animation is going. The dude in the cockpit has a joystick, but the mech is nigh-impossible to pilot with a joystick. I realize some people are saying this behavior in modern tanks comes from a gyroscope stabilizer. Is it reasonable to assume mech builders would not have invented that device? I don't think that's reasonable. That tech sounds like child's play to people building giant military robots. Since they're driving basically very complex tanks and trying to maintain aim, I think a gyro is the first thing they'd slap into the first prototype mech built.

Skillz / lack thereof:
If you're worried about simplifying the interface so the pilot doesn't have to pilot the mech: We'd be adding an extra control. More buttons for you to twiddle on and off depending on the tactical situation. You can be that guy who knows the best way to circle-strafe is to turn off the gyro, torso turn to 90 degrees and maintain turning-radius distance from the target. More opportunities to finesse the piloting of the mech, not less.

If you're worried that newbies will have an easier time aiming: What, you don't think you could take 'em if they can aim properly?

"Auto-aim": This deserves no response. We want to turn off "aim-prevention" not turn on "auto aim".

Barrier to entry: More people will be able to have more fun faster playing MWO with this change.

Competitive advantage: Everyone would have the option. As is, people trying to play with a joystick have a severe competitive disadvantage, because the game is automatically handling some of the translation from mouse-speak to mech motion. This would remove that competitive disadvantage. If talking only about mouse users, yes new players would be able to pick up the controls faster. I don't think that's a bad thing. You'd certainly have fewer potential players quitting before they got to the point of having fun.

"The Maths" a.k.a. Differences in turning rate between legs and torso twist servos:
This is easily made a non-issue simply by "driving the mech within its constraints and being a good pilot". The gyro should operate the torso up to its maximum turn speed in an attempt to keep up with the legs. If it can't keep up with the legs, the torso ends up turning, but at least will turn more slowly.

Mathematically if the legs are capable of steering at A degrees per second and the torso can twist at B degrees per second, then someone piloting the mech into a hard left will experience a torso turn rate of A-B degrees per second or zero, whichever is larger.

This is a good opportunity to learn that turning your mech as fast as it can will have adverse effects on your aim, and be a better pilot. It's also a good opportunity for certain mechs to have advantages and disadvantages over each other. (e.g. maybe one mech has more weapon mounts, but its torso servos aren't as good so it's harder to aim while maneuvering.)

And if the gyro makes things feel squirrely for you (probably since you're using digital turn controls on your keyboard and not a joystick like the in-game pilot has), turn it off.

Analogy to RL / Physics of the situation:
A pair of legs turning underneath a free-moving torso expends dramatically less energy than a pair of legs turning rigidly with a torso. Try it. Lock your shoulders with your hips and walk around the house. It feels unnatural.

A smart mech design wouldn't NEED to run a servo to keep the torso on target. The torso will stay on target unless the hip joint forces it to move, just of its own inertia.

A human moving around does not lock their pelvis with their shoulders. Try it. Lock your shoulders with your hips and walk around the house. It feels unnatural.

A human moving around does not think about motion in terms of their shoulders being locked to their pelvis, and compensate by consciously thinking about countering that motion in the opposite direction. Try it. Move around while focusing on an object. For one thing, you're probably not thinking about where your pelvis / line of walk are aimed, but even if you make yourself do that, you aren't thinking "Rotate shoulders at pelvis rotation rate in opposite direction". You're thinking "Don't rotate shoulders".

Effect on game difficulty:
I feel this would let people focus on piloting and strategizing with the mech and its weapons and the terrain, instead of spending most of your time just keeping your reticule from flying off in the direction you're turning. There's plenty of other difficulty to be had if you make aiming easier. (Though I still qualify this as making the aiming less unnecessarily difficult.)

Games should be fun:
I love MW games and hate MMOs. I have refused to touch every single MMO since Evercrack. I've played previous MW games and loved the series. I got super stoked about MWO even though it's an MMO. It is the first MMO I have willingly touched. I gave it 10 minutes, couldn't stand it. Those games are fun with a joystick. (Again I'll point out the joystick in the game's cockpit.) Played with a mouse and keyboard, I feel like it's just a difficult-to-control Unreal Tournament.

Every other game has figured this out:
Find one other game that has a vehicle with a gun on it, where the gun pivot is parented to the vehicle pivot and you have to counter the steering of the driver.

Previous MW games:
The last MW games I played were 2, Mercs, and 3. I feel like in those games the legs would move underneath the torso. Am I remembering wrong?


I think all that is a convincing argument for saying "OK, these highly advanced future warmechs do indeed have 1980's-era gyro stabilizer technology."

Edited by misterbk, 27 January 2013 - 12:18 AM.

[Lightfoot]

The solution is to get a Joystick, LoL. Then you twist the torso to the desired direction as you move, all with one hand.

MechWarrior+Joystick, "the way the game was ment to be played", to borrow from Nvidia.

You are going to have to aim anyway, even if this feature were added. Technically what you want is akin to auto-aiming, since the torso remains fixed on the target while the legs manuver. But you would still have to aim alittle.

My complaint is why do the Arms lag behind the Torso movement if the Arms are faster? If you do not exceed the speed of the torso movement or it's range, the two reticles should remain locked, and this is part of skilled piloting of a Mech.

[misterbk]

Did you try it with a joystick? I did, with my roommate, on pretty much the most advanced joystick made. (Saitek X52.) Configured properly, the game is unplayable on a joystick.

This is mostly because there are no joysticks with an analog control on the left hand.

The Satek has a twist mechanism. Using it was extremely frustrating. Turning feet with twist and aim with joystick axes was annoying and unnatural, and resulted in 1 to 3 successful weapon hits per fight. Switching to the mouse felt like an enormous competitive advantage. Keeping my reticule aimed in the general vicinity of the target while turning my legs, with the joystick, requires that I twist the stick while banking the stick full hard left or hard right, while maintaining vertical, and that's if the target isn't moving and I'm not bothering to fire. It's too many axes being pushed too far. I shoulld be twisting the axis to turn the legs while making corrections with the stick to maintain aim (not slamming it all the way hard left / right).

The mouse is a competitive advantage because it is calculating the twist rate for you in order to target that dot. The mouse targets a location and auto-drives the mech torso towards that location. With a joystick, you don't have that layer of abstraction, you have to manipulate rate of turn manually.

If moving the feet causes unwanted rate of turn in the torso, it's too unpleasant for me to even want to try learning. Feels like learning to play clarinet but the instrument is on a motor that moves it towards and away from you when your notes go up and down, for no reason. (And remember, I used to play all kinds of MW2:Mercs and MW3.)

Does anyone have a lazy susan or rotating spice rack? Put that on top of something and twist the thing you set it on. Argument done: the torso pivoting with the feet is not a natural motion, it requires additional force to keep the torso moving with the pelvis. Keeping the torso on target only requires minimal corrective force to counter friction.

If you argue that the mech's waist uses worm gears and can't rotate of its own inertia without the motor turning, I'll still argue that keeping it on target requires less engine work. And I'm fine if turning at max rate the waist can't keep up and has some drift. That seems like a great "this mech vs. that mech" feature and an opportunity to learn to pilot better.

Seems like a no-brainer to me. Doesn't matter though, I now know to check if this has been fixed at final release, and not buy if it's still the way it is.

Edited by misterbk, 28 January 2013 - 03:00 AM.

[pseudocoder]

SprigganXV15, on 03 November 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

Tank games have slimier features as this, it makes the driving skill more important, and makes aiming very slightly easier. It also makes torso rotation speed much more important because if you have to rotate 180, and you rotate slowly, good luck.

First of all if you use keyboard to turn your legs, then it makes aiming much easier, not slightly easier. Each press of the A or D key makes your reticle lurch to the left or right, which you need to compensate for with the mouse.

Second, in order to implement this feature you need a system that automatically moves the turret (torso) exactly opposite of any turning in the lower chassis. So it is not a "de-coupling" so much as it is a movement stabilization/compensation system.

Given this, you should think of your normal turret/torso rotation speed as additive with the movement compensation, so if you are rotating with the lower chassis your max twist speed (in relation to the ground) will be increased, if you are moving against the lower chassis your twist speed would be decreased, just like it is now. The only difference is, with compensation, you wouldn't feel the lower chassis rotation "pushing" or "pulling" against your turret/torso rotation until you actually move the rotation controls.

This leads into a potential problem: What if my torso rotation isn't fast enough to keep up with lower chassis rotation? Do I just get a free buff to torso rotation then, that allows me to turn at max speed while still keeping my torso trained on a single point? Or does my torso drift every time I start turning?

I could see adding the feature, but I can also see it being left out to make aiming on the move more challenging. Remember real world tank designers want to make their tanks as OP as possible, whereas in MWO it would be preferable if there was skill involved!

Edited by pseudocoder, 18 February 2013 - 03:08 PM.

[Anony Mouse]

I would love this, it would seem more natural and aid in accuracy tremendously. Though it should be said this is how Hawken handles legs, it may be that PGI doesn't want to be similar.

[Edustaja]

This is something the Clan targeting computer could add

[Zaistars]

PapaKilo, on 06 November 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

What you're describing makes sense for a tank with a main gun semi-fixed to the turret and a single aim point. The turret can rotate through the full 360º with no problems while keeping the view locked onto a certain point or target.

It doesn't make sense for a humanoid war machine with a limited-rotation waist and non-fixed weaponry.

What exactly would this option accomplish?
How would you choose what to "look at"?
How would you lead the target for PPC/Gauss/AC/SRM shots if your aiming point is fixed to where you're looking?

I guess I just don't get why you would want to turn your 'Mech into a walking single-aim-point turret rather than the flexible war machine it was designed to be. Limiting yourself to the slow torso twist speed and limited up/down/left/right movement range would put you at a severe disadvantage that can easily be exploited.

But I suppose I'd support the option, if only because anyone using it would be an easy kill for anyone using the standard control scheme.

Have you never played the old Mechwarrior games? This was a staple feature of those games. Greatly enhanced the play experience and made the target much harder to hit. If they turn this on, good luck.

[Kalidar]

Unsubscribed from this thread.

Too much stupidity and not enough reading comprehension of the movement controls being requested.

Ciao folks; enjoy your niche.

[Astarot]

I really don't understand what so complex about this thread, okay guys where the main point that the person wants.

He wants to ability to press (or hold, depending on set up) a button or trigger, or switch(all depending on the type of input device you are using) to make it so that the torso will only twist when one of two factors or met, The mouse is moved, and and or when the torso has twisted to is max value.

The counter arguement is this quite simple to put, is that you are experince torso twist when you move the legs is due to one main factors. Main factor is this, in most mechs, the legs have the ability to turn faster then the torso, thus you experance gun drift, and is actually a problem in many mondern day (and old day tanks) when the body(legs in this case) turn faster then the turret(body in this case) can turn in the revese direction of the turn.

In today tanks, for a tank turret to turn faster in the reverse direction, the turret traverse speed must be greater then the body triverse speed. So if a tank's body lets say traverses at 10 degrees a second, then the turret must traverse at 11 degrees a second to over come the direction that the body is turning, but that means if your body is turning right at 10 degrees a second, and your turret has the ability to traverse at 11 degrees a second, that means that the turret would only beable to turn at 1 degree a second to the left. Now apply these tank physics to a mech body, where 90% of the mechs have limited torso twist.

Next, most likely one of the reasons why this has not been put into the game was due to the fact, that not only does your mouse control your torso, but it also controls your arms. This could put in a complecated code error where only one can be in place at a time.

[wilson0x4d]

Just so we're all very clear: twist speed is a factor in your ability to aim, there is no 'locking' occurring. Welcome to the MechWarrior franchise, you have to aim your guns yourself, as the BattleMech is only an extension of you. If you don't turn it, it doesn't turn.

A lot of games today have 'aim assist' where your crosshair/aim is "fixed" in position such that "twist" seems non-existent. No effort is required from the player to acheive a 'dead aim'. What you're asking for is an aim assist that bypasses the need to actually pilot your mech, which when put this way, well..

Yuck!

I expect my mech to aim where I point it, but I still expect to have to point it. If you rotate your mech you require more/less twist to keep your sights on a target, some mechs are better/worse than others at this and thus removing this from the game would take away something that makes the mechwarrior franchise the awesome franchise it is. Pilots actually have to be good at piloting. In prior MW releases, the twist on a joystick could be used to control the twist on your mech.. but you still had to compensate if you changed the direction of your mech. Again, it really sounds like people can't pilot their mechs and so they want an aim assist option to make it easier.

No thanks.

You're necessarily required to aim your mech (torso and arms) where you intend to hit. If they add an aim assist (whereby your crosshairs "attempt" to stay in position) I seriously hope it is implemented as a 'per-mech module' instead of a 'global option'.

[Skribs]

I think what the OP is talking about is this (because a lot of people are confused):
Currently, if you start with torso and legs at 12:00 and turn 90 degrees, you have torso and legs at 3:00.
What he wants is that when you turn 90 degrees, your torso is at 12:00 and legs at 3:00.

As to the tank analogy, I'm not a tanker, but I'm pretty sure they have a driver and a gunner. It would make sense to keep both on different planes (I hate turret-based mini-games in video games where you have to adjust as the pilot/driver turns).

In-game, I think if this option were available it wouldn't make-or-break the match. In fact, I think it would be worse than the current system. Here's why:

1) While moving into position, you would have to constantly adjust your torso. As it stands, you simply turn with your mech.
2) As it stands, as you turn you can auto-compensate for it by turning the other way. With this system, you will probably be very surprised when you hit the limit and have to readjust.
3) I don't find I have to readjust much while circle strafing, my targets stay in a pretty consistent position relative to my legs.

It took me a bit to get the hang of not walking into walls, and I think this would actually make that worse for new players. As it stands, I don't see this as offering an improvement for 90% of the game, while the only perceived improvement for the remaining 10% would be for those who have trouble controlling both movements (legs and torso) at once.

OP, I understand what you're asking, but I don't think it would actually be a good thing.

[SprigganXV15]

Id still love to see this implemented.

[Gaulwa]

I would love to see this implemented too. I have currently stopped playing until this is implemented along mouse sensitivity options. (I know you can edit userconfig for this, but it's annoying to re-adapt after each patch, and it cause multiple graphic problems on my side)

Edited by Gaulwa, 05 April 2013 - 12:54 PM.

[Bendello Dossa]

What doesnt make sense is that in the future with all this mech technology they havent been able to invent a way for a mech to be able to rotate 360 degrees at the waist lol.