23 replies to this topic

[Squid von Torgar]

A member of our unit mentioned something that I think may of been overlooked in the debate surrounding DHS.

Let me explain

Bryan posted this explination on HS

Quote

First, let’s take a look at a Standard Heat Sink. It’s a pretty basic piece of equipment that weighs 1 ton, occupies 1 critical slot. Each Standard Heat Sink equipped on your Mech cools it by 0.1 heat/sec and increases the maximum heat threshold before you shut down by 1.[/color]

A Double Heat Sink also weighs 1 ton, but it occupies 3 critical slots. This means that you’re unable to fit them in a Mech’s head, center torso, or legs. The upside is that each one cools your Mech by 0.2 heat/sec and increases your maximum heat capacity by 2.

Now the interesting part is that HS increase your shutdown threshold. From that I can clearly see that having that value set to 2 per DHS would actually be terrible. It would totally be OP.

However the question is this:

Is the reduced effectiveness of DHS (the 1.4 value) applied to the threshold increase or the cooling rate or both?

If its just the threshold, I can see this working well, you still have to manage your heat but you cool twice as fast. That to me is how DHS should work anyway.

If its both (threshold and cooling) then it is a terrible decision and really needs looking at again.

I hope you agree we could be arguing over nothing or actually be facing a major game breaker. So can anyone confirm which it is?

Edited by Squid von Torgar, 03 November 2012 - 10:21 AM.

[Tickdoff Tank]

Squid von Torgar, on 03 November 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

A member of our unit mentioned something that I think may of been overlooked in the debate surrounding DHS.

Let me explain

Bryan posted this explination on HS



Now the interesting part is that HS increase your shutdown threshold. From that I can clearly see that having that value set to 2 per DHS would actually be terrible. It would totally be OP.

However the question is this:

Is the reduced effectiveness of DHS (the 1.4 value) applied to the threshold increase or the cooling rate or both?

If its just the threshold, I can see this working well, you still have to manage your heat but you cool twice as fast. That to me is how DHS should work anyway.

If its both (threshold and cooling) then it is a terrible decision and really needs looking at again.

I hope you agree we could be arguing over nothing or actually be facing a major game breaker. So can anyone confirm which it is?

If we are talking about *just* the heat threshold then a DHS should provide only 1.0 increase to it, just like a SHS. The threshold should be determind by the absolute number of heatsinks, not the effectiveness of the heatsinks.

So a Mech with 20 SHS would have a threshold of 30+20 =50 and a mech with 10 DHS would have a threshold of 40.

But the upcoming "fix" is to the dissipation rate of DHS, setting it to 1.4, not to the threshold.

[Squid von Torgar]

Quote

But the upcoming "fix" is to the dissipation rate of DHS, setting it to 1.4, not to the threshold.

Are we sure about that? From Bryans post he just mentions reducing their effectiveness down to 1.4. He doesn't make the distinction between cooling and threshold.

Quote

After fixing the EHS bug, and setting DHS to a canon value of 2.0, we experienced anticipated results. Heat was no longer a concern, increasing DPS exponentially on certain types of mech loadouts. After testing a variety of standard builds, we settled on 1.4. This value maintains the spirit of both DHS and maintains the integrity of MWO's overall gameplay experience.

Could this be a storm in a teacup? If it is just the latter (Threshold) it is an elegant fix that still means DHS are worth having in the game (and allow the builds that rely on them). If its the dissipation then its pretty useless.

Edited by Squid von Torgar, 03 November 2012 - 10:29 AM.

[Kibble]

Heat sinks never increase your shutdown threshold. All heat sinks do is dissipate heat at a certain rate.

Even after putting the current DHS in my mech I have noticed a huge difference. Yes I still run hot, because after all if you are not running hot you are doing it wrong.

Edited by Kibble, 03 November 2012 - 10:30 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Squid von Torgar, on 03 November 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

Are we sure about that? From Bryans post he just mentions reducing their effectiveness down to 1.4. He doesn't make the distinction between cooling and threshold.



Could this be a storm in a teacup? If it is just the latter (Threshold) it is an elegant fix that still means DHS are worth having in the game (and allow the builds that rely on them).

If its threshold its pointless, if its effectiveness I'm still in hell with it mode.

[Squid von Torgar]

Quote

Heat sinks never increase your shutdown threshold. All heat sinks do is dissipate heat at a certain rate.

WRONG! Read the devs explination as to how they actually work in game.

Quote

First, let’s take a look at a Standard Heat Sink. It’s a pretty basic piece of equipment that weighs 1 ton, occupies 1 critical slot. Each Standard Heat Sink equipped on your Mech cools it by 0.1 heat/sec and increases the maximum heat threshold before you shut down by 1.

A Double Heat Sink also weighs 1 ton, but it occupies 3 critical slots. This means that you’re unable to fit them in a Mech’s head, center torso, or legs. The upside is that each one cools your Mech by 0.2 heat/sec and increases your maximum heat capacity by 2.

Quote

If its threshold its pointless, if its effectiveness I'm still in hell with it mode.

Having your threshold doubled would mean that some builds would be pretty much immune to heat (at the 2.0 value) and I agree would unbalance things a fair bit. Having it a 1.4 for DHS means that you still have a limit to the amount of time you can fire, but because you cool quicker its still a bonus.

Edited by Squid von Torgar, 03 November 2012 - 10:33 AM.

[Kibble]

Squid von Torgar, on 03 November 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

WRONG! Read the devs explination as to how they actually work in game.

I'm going off of what heat sinks are ACTUALLY suppose to do and not what a dev says, don't hang on every word as 100% accurate.

Edited by Kibble, 03 November 2012 - 10:35 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Squid von Torgar, on 03 November 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

WRONG! Read the devs explination as to how they actually work in game.






Having your threshold doubled would mean that some builds would be pretty much immune to heat (at the 2.0 value) and I agree would unbalance things a fair bit. Having it a 1.4 for DHS means that you still have a limit to the amount of time you can fire, but because you cool quicker its still a bonus.

For what?

The highest number of DHS you can possibly achieve is 14+14 engine. so 56 threshold, but you have NOTHING but chest and head hardpoints to work with.

.....somehow a AWS-9M with three pulse lasers and infinite firing capacity doesn't really scare me.

Edited by Yokaiko, 03 November 2012 - 10:38 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Squid von Torgar, on 03 November 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

A member of our unit mentioned something that I think may of been overlooked in the debate surrounding DHS.

Let me explain

Bryan posted this explination on HS



Now the interesting part is that HS increase your shutdown threshold. From that I can clearly see that having that value set to 2 per DHS would actually be terrible. It would totally be OP.

However the question is this:

Is the reduced effectiveness of DHS (the 1.4 value) applied to the threshold increase or the cooling rate or both?

If its just the threshold, I can see this working well, you still have to manage your heat but you cool twice as fast. That to me is how DHS should work anyway.

If its both (threshold and cooling) then it is a terrible decision and really needs looking at again.

I hope you agree we could be arguing over nothing or actually be facing a major game breaker. So can anyone confirm which it is?

We can't. I don't think the devs actually considered this option so far, though it would be a smarter approach- and I would go much further and just give DHS 1 point to the heat capacity per sink.
Or even go yet a bit further and also lower the base threshold by 5 to 15 points. That would actually be a clever move. But it's wishful thinking.

[Kibble]

Lower Standard HS to .5 and DHS to 1 then bring the armor values back to what they originally were. Fixed for hardcore.

[Squid von Torgar]

Quote

We can't. I don't think the devs actually considered this option so far, though it would be a smarter approach- and I would go much further and just give DHS 1 point to the heat capacity per sink.
Or even go yet a bit further and also lower the base threshold by 5 to 15 points. That would actually be a clever move. But it's wishful thinking.

I really hope its not just wishful thinking, its the perfect solution unless I am missing something?

[MustrumRidcully]

I don't know if it's perfect. It is at least more interesting and introduces an interesting trade-off - do you try to get carried by your heat capacity with a single heat sink mech,or do you tried to rely on a high dissipation of DHS? The best choice may depend on your weapon setup and differ from build to build.

[Corvus Antaka]

DHS already help a lot! 1.4 was a good choice, as otherwise singles would be completely useless in every way. 1.4 brings us near where we are now while fixing the bugs.

[Yokaiko]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 03 November 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

DHS already help a lot! 1.4 was a good choice, as otherwise singles would be completely useless in every way. 1.4 brings us near where we are now while fixing the bugs.

Not true. Singles still would have found their way onto assault by virtue of lack of crit slots.

[Squid von Torgar]

Quote

DHS already help a lot! 1.4 was a good choice, as otherwise singles would be completely useless in every way. 1.4 brings us near where we are now while fixing the bugs.

For light or medium mechs they may be a smart choice but for Assaults who rely on them to actually work, 1.4 is a terrible idea.

The Awesome 9M can fire its ppcs once (this wont change with the 1.4 value as its effectively keeps things the same as they are now) and then has to wait 12 seconds before it can fire again. (That is with the heat bonuses unlocked in the pilot lab).

In the same time a guassapult can fire 3 times. Thats my 30 damage compared to his 90. Its the same with LRMs, they can fire 3 times faster. So which would you take if you had the choice?

[Farmer]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 03 November 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

DHS already help a lot! 1.4 was a good choice, as otherwise singles would be completely useless in every way. 1.4 brings us near where we are now while fixing the bugs.

Singles aren't useless on Heavies and assaults. They tend to have more tonnage than crits. 1.4 doesn;t do anything to make LLAS and PPC builds more viable. In fact, it actually hurts some of the stock mechs designed around DHS.

[Keifomofutu]

Kibble, on 03 November 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

Lower Standard HS to .5 and DHS to 1 then bring the armor values back to what they originally were. Fixed for hardcore.

A hardcore gaussing maybe...

[RAM]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 03 November 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

otherwise singles would be completely useless in every way.

False


RAM
ELH

[MustrumRidcully]

AlbinoSlug, on 03 November 2012 - 12:02 PM, said:

Boy wish there was a way to block douchebags who add nothing to the discussion at hand.

You should mention this to a moderator.

Oh... wait.

[Ghosth]

I for one would love to hear an Dev answer to this.

I am almost ready to grab the tar and feathers, maybe a pitchfork and a torch.
Please convince me that they are not needed.