95 replies to this topic

[ltwally]

Attempting to make a video game about giant robots doing battle 1000 years in the future more realistic is..... well, I can only chuckle at that.

Ballistic weapons already have a number of advantages (as listed above). The projectile speed is, most likely, intended to be a form of balance so that they're not overpowered. (If that wasn't the intent, it was certainly an effect.)

Increasing their speed would make it easy too shoot targets at extreme ranges, making them a stronger, more potent weapon. They already have enough going for them.

To me, they seem perfectly balanced as is. Making them any better would have an unbalancing effect on the game.

But that's just my thoughts.

[Hetfeng321]

Gaan Cathal, on 04 November 2012 - 12:53 AM, said:

The '87 test firing was a Yugoslav design that later achieved 4km/s, iirc. The ~6km/s value is the claimed muzzle velocity of current US navy testbed railguns, obviously since it's current weapons development that's unverifiable.

That said, I'm pretty sure 6km/s Gauss rounds in MWO as it stands would be problematic, especially with the gulf between it and other ballistics currently.

Yeah, an instant travel time would be too much. I don't firmly think that a gauss round should be faster than an AC round. I believe that the overall speed of all ballistic weapons needs to go up.

[Solis Obscuri]

Ballistics don't need to go faster.

Lasers need to go slower.

[The Crow2k]

Thirdrail, on 03 November 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

I have often thought that the velocity on PPCs is too slow. They just feel slightly wrong. Like they're underpowered in terms of their in-game execution, as opposed to their design statistics.

The ACs seem fine to me. I haven't used a gauss cannon yet.

I'm interested to see where it all lands when the netcode is updated. Maybe without the ubiquitous lag shielding, the PPCs will feel right again.

AC 20 needs to have its heat pulled back down to realistic levels IMHO or no one is going to use it (theres a thread on this elsewhere). Ive stripped AC 20's out of my current builds and where possible replaced it with Dual UAC 5's and where not possible I have had to switch to Gauss.

Ballistic weapons have slow fire rates & limited ammo, burdening them with high heat ontop of that just makes them really weak.

[ExodusC]

I see no need to increase projectile speeds on the ballistic weapons, especially the Gauss Rifle.

If anything, ballistics, with the exception of the Gauss Rifle could use a small boost, maybe.

Most of all, the Machine Gun seems pretty useless, I have yet to come across a build in which it's more effective than just mounting some lasers.

[Hetfeng321]

The issue with increasing gauss's muzzle velocity is that they are already a tad over-powered in CQC situations. I suggested on another thread that, to mitigate this, at close range (within 30 m maybe) the high speed shrapnel from the slug hitting the enemy mech would damage your own as well. But to be fair, that splash damage would affect other enemies too, making the guass rifle a possible suicide close-up weapon. I don't think we want that.

[Gaan Cathal]

If Gauss Rifles are an issue in CQC, you could just lower damage under a given distance and blame overpenetration.

[Hetfeng321]

Gaan Cathal, on 06 November 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

If Gauss Rifles are an issue in CQC, you could just lower damage under a given distance and blame overpenetration.

Good idea, I second that. Maybe the slug moves so fast that it doesn't deform and make a larger hole. Just like how a penetrator round in real life does minimal damage to unarmored vehicles because there is no armor to heat the penetrator up and cause a deadly expansion of the air inside.

As it appears to me, any weapon can behave realistically in terms of speed as long as balancing can be achieved with reducing damage.

Edited by Hetfeng321, 07 November 2012 - 05:11 PM.

[Col Forbin]

I would take it one step further and hope to add in actual "ballistics." You know, parabolic trajectory. The thing that makes BF3 so much better than that "other" game.

[KaiserX]

Cataphract, on 03 November 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

Speeding up ballistics? Really?! someone obviously wants to break Gauss Rifles more lol. When the net code gets tightened up the projectile speed will be the least of your concerns using ballistics. Balancing a weapon based off of net code is a very bad idea. They have a perfect projectile speed now. This game needs more skill to play not less.

So THAT's what's causing my brothers on my network to complain about latency issues whenever I play a match... The cruddy netcode that somehow EATS up my internet?

Seriously though for a 1Mbps upload and 30+Mbps download speed, I don't see how a single online game can cripple the network... Unless MWO is streaming a live video of the game to me?

Edited by KaiserX, 08 November 2012 - 08:12 PM.

[Nexus Omega]

I would Increase Projectile Speeds, but only 10-15% They do seem a tad slow,
But the Netcode is a more important issue, I hit things plenty and it causes no damage, yay lag

[Hudenagyon]

Implementing real world physichs is not a good idea IMHO too. The ballistic weapons are close to useless. In MW4 it took the bullet cca. 1 sec to reach 1000m away. AC/2 and AC/5 used to be a sniper weapon, but i can't hit anything with them, due to low projectile velocity. And we can make a deal: increase the velocity of bullet, decrease heat generating, but increase the reloading times of ballistic weapons. They will be more useful this way.

Edited by Hudenagyon, 08 November 2012 - 11:27 PM.

[Circles End]

Slightly off-topic, but a Gauss rifle is not a railgun. While both of them use high power magnetics to propel projectiles, a Gauss rifle is technically a coil gun
It's been bugging me this entire thread.

[EnigmaNL]

Circles End, on 09 November 2012 - 02:11 AM, said:

Slightly off-topic, but a Gauss rifle is not a railgun. While both of them use high power magnetics to propel projectiles, a Gauss rifle is technically a coil gun
It's been bugging me this entire thread.

Even though a Gauss rifle is technically a Coilgun the muzzle velocity should still be increased.

I vote yes, increase the projectile speed of all ballistic weapons, they are silly slow right now, as if the projectiles are fired with a parachute behind them.

[Strum Wealh]

I think that AC muzzle velocity (and the analogous values for several of the other weapons) could also use an increase.

What I would like to see...
AC-2:
Assumed Caliber Range: 20mm to 40mm
Muzzle Velocity Range: 800-1700 m/s
Basis: M61 Vulcan, GAU-8 Avenger, RARDEN, Rheinmetall MK 20 Rh 202, Bofors 40 mm

AC-5:
Assumed Caliber Range: 50mm to 90mm
Muzzle Velocity Range: 550-1130 m/s
Basis: 5 cm Pak 38, 90 mm Gun M1/M2/M3, Cannone da 90/53, Ordnance QF 75 mm, Bofors 57 mm Gun

AC-10:
Assumed Caliber Range: 100mm to 140mm
Muzzle Velocity Range: 590-1750 m/s
Basis: BL 5.5 Inch Medium Gun, 13.5 cm K 09, BL 4 Inch Naval Gun Mk VII, D-10 Tank Gun, Rheinmetall 120 mm Gun

AC-20:
Assumed Caliber Range: 150mm to 203mm
Muzzle Velocity Range: 300-950 m/s
Basis: 8"/55 caliber gun, 20.3 cm K (E), 15 cm K (E), Skoda 150 mm Model 1918

Based on the above, I would suggest the following values for average muzzle velocities:
AC-2: ~1500 m/s (Mach ~4.41)
AC-5: ~1200 m/s (Mach ~3.53)
AC-10: ~900 m/s (Mach ~2.64)
AC-20: ~600 m/s (Mach ~1.76)

Effective Ranges:
AC-2: 720 meters
AC-5: 540 meters
AC-10: 450 meters
AC-20: 270 meters

This would give average travel times of:
AC-2: ~0.48 seconds
AC-5: ~0.45 seconds
AC-10: ~0.50 seconds
AC-20: ~0.45 seconds

-----

And, for the sake of completeness:
Ideal (IMO) Laser Muzzle Velocity: 3x10^8 m/s (1.0c/"speed-of-light")
Ideal (IMO) PPC/ER-PPC Muzzle Velocity: 50,000 m/s (0.000167c; the approximate speed of lightning in Earth's atmosphere)
Ideal (IMO) Flamer Muzzle Velocity: ~100 m/s (the only figure I could readily find with regard to flamethrower muzzle velocity)

Ideal (IMO) Machine Gun Muzzle Velocity: 890 m/s (Mach 2.6; muzzle velocity for the M2 Browning)
Ideal (IMO) Gauss Rifle Muzzle Velocity: 3400 m/s (Mach 10.0; upper bound for "hypersonic Mach regime")

Ideal (IMO) LRM Launch/Flight Velocity: 580 m/s (Mach 1.7; flight speed of similarly-sized Redeye missile)
Ideal (IMO) SRM/Streak-SRM Launch/Flight Velocity: 750 m/s (Mach 2.2; flight speed of similarly-sized Stinger missile)

For comparison, one of the fastest 'Mechs conceived - the LCT-6M Locust with MASC engaged - runs at a maximum speed of 302.4 kph (equivalent to 84 m/s), while real-world Formula One racing cars top out at about 320 kph (~89 m/s).

Your thoughts?

[Random Numbers]

PPC and the ERPPC ... Beam weapon ... Just for once can a mechwarrior game get this right?

BEAM WEAPON

[ltwally]

Random Numbers, on 09 November 2012 - 05:13 AM, said:

PPC and the ERPPC ... Beam weapon ... Just for once can a mechwarrior game get this right?

BEAM WEAPON

Lasers == Beam weapon. They shoot a stream of photons, which by definition travel at or near the speed of light.

PPC != Beam weapon. PPC fires a "ball" of high energy particles. How fast that ball travels would be determined by the mechanism that ejects it.

If you are amongst those wishing the PPC to go faster... fine. That is your opinion. But please stop trying to rationalise it; the PPC is a completely theoretical weapon, and trying to ground your game wishes in real-world logic is a failure before you've even began typing.

[Random Numbers]

Stream of Protons or Ions = Beam

PPCs and ERPPCs were ALWAYS beam weapons .. the descriptions always had them that way and so did the original art ... Just because every Mechwarrior game screwed it up doesn't mean they were correct ... BEAM WEAPON

And technically no the PPC isn't a theoretical weapon ... it's a Particle accelerator and yes those do exist.

Edited by Random Numbers, 09 November 2012 - 11:18 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

To mimic the range advantage better, I think the longer the range of ballistics, the faster the projectile should fly. This should somewhat model the idea of long range shots being more difficult with short range weapons. (Yes, this is in addition ot the damage drop off). The stats of the original weapons were a bit based on the way to-hit difficulty affected the likely output of weapons. An AC20 is great at close range, because if it hits, it hits really hard - but the AC2 still has a bit of an advantage left at close range (at least if you don't reach the minimum range) - the chance to hit is relatively high.

A fast projectile speed can even help at close range, so It think this would be a nice benefit to the longer range weapons.

[MaddMaxx]

Lasers are considered Hit-Scan with Bean duration and as such have a speed="0" entry in MWO.

The Gauss = speed="1200"

The ER/PPC = speed="1200"

AC2 = speed="2000"

It is just the animations that make them seem like they fly at different speeds when the #'s are in fact the same for the GR and PPC's.

What is kinda weird is how the Speed of the AC5 drops to speed="900" while the AC10 = speed="850"????

Edited by MaddMaxx, 09 November 2012 - 12:30 PM.