293 replies to this topic

[Boymonkey]

Riptor, on 05 November 2012 - 02:34 AM, said:

Truth is:

The weapon is to easy to use compared to any other weapon and does more damage then any other weapon since there are way to many missle hardpoints on some mechs. Also the weight of LRMs compared to other weapon systems is pretty low. An AC/20 doesnt even compare to a single LRM 20 because right now that LRM 20 CAUSES 40 DAMAGE! An lrm 15 causes 30 damage and people are able to carry around 3 or 4 on their mechs. 4 x 15 = 60

60 Damage a salvo without even overheating.

Take in the ease of aquiring a target if you have 1 or 2 lightmechs with lagshields that have ZERO problems runing donuts around the entire enemy team and you can waste any enemy very easaly.

Armor folds like paper under just 2 LRM 20s.

Add into account the insane reload times and you can have a steady stream of lrms stripping away even atlas armor away in moments.

No other weapon in the game does that. Not even OP Gauss.

And needing a spotter is no drawback when you take into account that currently a Jenner is capable of eating more shots then an awesome due to lagshield and netcoding.

Not only that but most Terrain and cover wont help you because the LRMs are so mind boogling accurate AND have a flight pattern that makes any cover that isnt DOUBLE your mech useless since it comes crashing down right ontop of you.

I much much MUCH preffered the LRMs of mechwarrior 4-

If you fired them directly at your target.. meaning crosshair on the target. they would also fly directly at your target.

If you wanted them to go indirectly you had to get the lock.. then shoot at the sky so the LRMs would arc in a curve.

Right now the LRMs are wayyyyy to accurate.

Delivering ALL their damage and not random damage.

BTW:

Clan LRMs dont have a minimum range.

One weapon to rule them all....

You forget that even out in the open not every missile hits so it will be very rare that a LRM 20 does 40 damage.

TBH if you get caught out in the open and get wasted by LRM fire, it is your own fault. Learn tactics and communicate with your team and LRM fire is easy to counter.

Edited by Boymonkey, 05 November 2012 - 02:46 AM.

[Urza Mechwalker]

My 2 cents.

LRM coudl be kept strong but not so much dependable. How? Jus tmake them guided Up to 1.5 seconds before they hit target. At that point they continue goign straight to where they were. That will make smart players using light and medium mechs, able to avoid LRM if they are paying attention. At same time that keeps LRM very very powerful against atlases and awesomes and gausscats (that usually are pretty slow)

[Riptor]

Ashnod, on 05 November 2012 - 02:43 AM, said:

Sorry, but LRM's are not OP - Use cover, don't run out alone in the open, pay attention to incoming LRM's - rush LRM boats while using cover.. Snipe them with AC/2 or Gauss.. Basically.. Play smart?

Youre not listening are you?

Cover in 9/10 cases is useless because LRMs will either fly through or fly over it to directly drop down at you in a 90 Degree angle.

Sometimes (mean rarely) they are even able to round corners. (they might loose a few missles but you will still get damaged when you where at the corner of cover and backpedaling.)

"Get to cover" is not an option here because theres very little cover thats 2 or 3 times the size of your mech on the maps... you know.. the only cover that actually blocks LRM flight paths.

Also once more:

LRMs were sold to us as "support" weapons... right now they are "main weapons" wich declass any other weapon in damage output and destructive force + ease of use.

And now they are going to implement the artemis FCS system tomorrow without a single way of fighting back against that.

Edited by Riptor, 05 November 2012 - 03:05 AM.

[RedDragon]

Urza Mechwalker, on 05 November 2012 - 02:46 AM, said:

My 2 cents.

LRM coudl be kept strong but not so much dependable. How? Jus tmake them guided Up to 1.5 seconds before they hit target. At that point they continue goign straight to where they were. That will make smart players using light and medium mechs, able to avoid LRM if they are paying attention. At same time that keeps LRM very very powerful against atlases and awesomes and gausscats (that usually are pretty slow)

That way moving mechs would be impossible to hit and you would never score a hit against lights (given they are not standing still, which they shouldn't).

A better way (maybe) would be to make LRMs a direct-fire weapon and only usable as indirect fire support if there is someone actively painting the target (i.e. TAG or Narc).

[Urza Mechwalker]

RedDragon, on 05 November 2012 - 03:06 AM, said:

That way moving mechs would be impossible to hit and you would never score a hit against lights (given they are not standing still, which they shouldn't).

A better way (maybe) would be to make LRMs a direct-fire weapon and only usable as indirect fire support if there is someone actively painting the target (i.e. TAG or Narc).

the light mech excessiveness shoudl be fixed by fixing the high alpha weapons ( PPCs). If PPCs are fixed then we will have weaposn capable of alpha striking light mechs from moderate distances. That would force lgith mechs to not expose so much in the open. Right now they are too hard to hit with large lasers due to the tiem of fire and medium lasers cannto cripple them fast enough before they retreat.


Another fix woudl be to increase MASSIVElY the impulse of the weapons. And make the impulse transmission tot he target take into accoutn the mass of the target. That way a single AC 10 hit on a jenner should make it stumble and slow it a bit whiel not afect much an atlas.

A lot of the balance issues can be fix by a fine and well tought application of impact affecting balance and speed of running mechs.

[Riptor]

Boymonkey, on 05 November 2012 - 02:45 AM, said:

You forget that even out in the open not every missile hits so it will be very rare that a LRM 20 does 40 damage.

TBH if you get caught out in the open and get wasted by LRM fire, it is your own fault. Learn tactics and communicate with your team and LRM fire is easy to counter.

Out in the open or in cover doesnt matter in most cases.

Not all 40 points will hit but if you know what youre doing as an LRM boat (and i expect pretty much anyone posting on the forums to know his/her handywork) then you know that 3 lrm15s fired in chain or in one volley is more then enough to cripple anything that isnt a jenner at max speed or an fully armored atlas. The couple of points damage that are lost do not matter in the great scheme of things.

I dont see as many awesome 8-ts then last week and still everyone uses LRMs.. because they are the easiest to use with the highest yield return weapons.


You have to keep lock? Well i have to also keep my crosshair over a moving target at lower range. Also if i can spot my enemy and shoot at him... he can do the same with me.

With LRMs i have to risk nothing to cause the most damage in my team.

And THAT is whats wrong with LRMs.. a support weapon should amplify the damage of the others or flush people out of camping positions. NOT completly replace other suposedly "main" weapons and declass them as secondarys should someone actually make it through the missle screen.

Edited by Riptor, 05 November 2012 - 03:16 AM.

[Urza Mechwalker]

Other day I got stomped whiel using my dual LRM 20 atlas when our team faced a group that had 3 atlas K with dual AMS each.. fightign in tight tandem.. Oo that was a massively frustrating.. we had 2 catas besides my atlas rainign LRM and NONE of them got anywhere in armor worse than yellow.

Another COOOl way to fix it. Add lasers capability to destroy LRM clouds if you manage to hit them. That would add a very nice skill based feature into game.

[Rokollus]

OP: LRMs lay waste to a mech already engaged with another brawler........

Thats the idea, kill the enemy before they kill you. Your brawlers are smart if they ask for a LRM drop...danger close.
Some brawlers equip a TAG just for that purpose.
Maybe cover is broken, but I have little issues avoiding heavy LRM fire if I hug terrain or building close. Maybe these folks just think they are behind cover ?

I spent some time on Sunday building the xp on my Cat. LRMs are not the win all be all. Small mechs can dodge and weave thier way up to the boat and work him down, it happens.

[iHover]

Yes I understand and have called for LRM support on targets as well. Thats not what Im talking about . Im talking about drops where LRMs are taking out every target on the map. Two or three brawlers engage and in comes the LRM fire in waves. Heck last night I said to heck with it an quit playing there was no point, every team drop had 3 or 4 LRM boats / semi boats and out of a half dozen drops No one other than the LRMs racked up any damage or kills. The same story played otu over and over . If I actualy got a chance to get to the enemy (dodge cover wait for lrms to lighten) as soon as the enemy was engaged here come the lrm waves. # or 4 mechs sporting loadout with 2 LRM 20s and an lrm 15 or three 20's just laying waste to everything throughout the match. No heat issues , No ammo issues , just nonstop rain from drop start to end. Its crap.

Edited by iHover, 05 November 2012 - 09:22 AM.

[SpiralRazor]

Riptor, on 05 November 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

Youre not listening are you?

Cover in 9/10 cases is useless because LRMs will either fly through or fly over it to directly drop down at you in a 90 Degree angle.

Sometimes (mean rarely) they are even able to round corners. (they might loose a few missles but you will still get damaged when you where at the corner of cover and backpedaling.)

"Get to cover" is not an option here because theres very little cover thats 2 or 3 times the size of your mech on the maps... you know.. the only cover that actually blocks LRM flight paths.

Also once more:

LRMs were sold to us as "support" weapons... right now they are "main weapons" wich declass any other weapon in damage output and destructive force + ease of use.

And now they are going to implement the artemis FCS system tomorrow without a single way of fighting back against that.

You must bad then, because ive found cover on every map against LRMS, and thats with organized team vs organized team. Stop parroting something thats patently NOT true...9/10? 90%? No dude, just....no.

You do realize that Arty requires the firing boat to maintain line of sight right? That means that all the counter battery fire is going to get directed there way. Guass, missiles, ERPPCs, AC/2s/5s, ERLLs.......its going to be like it should, where one sides artillery is silenced or suppressed by the others, and the upper hand is gained by who manuevers and coordinates better.


Honestly, the game play I experienced yesterday was some of the most tactical AND strategic ive seen in MWO in the last six months. People were FORCED to hang back, engage smartly, and utilize EVERY mech they deployed, rather then having the brawlers just run in and dice everything like it was before.

I hate to say this, but stop being bads...and take some advice from skilled players on how to coordinate against LRMS.

[RedDragon]

SpiralRazor, on 05 November 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

You must bad then, because ive found cover on every map against LRMS, and thats with organized team vs organized team. Stop parroting something thats patently NOT true...9/10? 90%? No dude, just....no.

You do realize that Arty requires the firing boat to maintain line of sight right? That means that all the counter battery fire is going to get directed there way. Guass, missiles, ERPPCs, AC/2s/5s, ERLLs.......its going to be like it should, where one sides artillery is silenced or suppressed by the others, and the upper hand is gained by who manuevers and coordinates better.


Honestly, the game play I experienced yesterday was some of the most tactical AND strategic ive seen in MWO in the last six months. People were FORCED to hang back, engage smartly, and utilize EVERY mech they deployed, rather then having the brawlers just run in and dice everything like it was before.

I hate to say this, but stop being bads...and take some advice from skilled players on how to coordinate against LRMS.

+1
Since I started playing in the Beta, I haven't died once due to LRMs. I don't even use AMS. Even in my Atlas, it's no big thing to get into cover. Mind you: You don't take cover from the LRM (although that works too often times), you take cover from the spotter. As soon as the LOS is gone, missiles won't hit you. Sometimes you get beaten up by some LRM, but that is either one's own fault or the result of good team play from the enemy.

[Wildger]

I can't keep track of how many times the topic has been discussed. LRM is NO WAY over-powered. However, for those who don't care about finding cover and who want to act like Rambo, this is NOT the game for you. Go and play something else and stop complainting. I used a missile boat most of the time. Those who acted "stupid" got shot into pieces. Then, there were teams that played so smart that I could not cause any damage. There are so many ways to break the LRM lock-on that this is not fun for those who drive a missile boat.

[Cel]

Wildger, on 05 November 2012 - 10:15 AM, said:

I can't keep track of how many times the topic has been discussed. LRM is NO WAY over-powered. However, for those who don't care about finding cover and who want to act like Rambo, this is NOT the game for you. Go and play something else and stop complainting. I used a missile boat most of the time. Those who acted "stupid" got shot into pieces. Then, there were teams that played so smart that I could not cause any damage. There are so many ways to break the LRM lock-on that this is not fun for those who drive a missile boat.

You ever wonder why most games everyone carries LRM? most times I see even the lights carry LRM. Don't even tell me it's a versatile weapon, because it's not. You know what's the one consistent thing about players in all multiplayer games? the most overpowered class is always the most played. In this case it's a weapon, and everyone uses it.

Also, please enlighten us on the "many ways to break the LRM lock-on" and how "it's not fun for those who drive a missile boat", please tell us all the tears you shed because you have to move instead of sitting on one spot the entire match.

[Noth]

Wildger, on 05 November 2012 - 10:15 AM, said:

I can't keep track of how many times the topic has been discussed. LRM is NO WAY over-powered. However, for those who don't care about finding cover and who want to act like Rambo, this is NOT the game for you. Go and play something else and stop complainting. I used a missile boat most of the time. Those who acted "stupid" got shot into pieces. Then, there were teams that played so smart that I could not cause any damage. There are so many ways to break the LRM lock-on that this is not fun for those who drive a missile boat.

LRMs currently force very specific style of play. You can hug cover and get slowly widdled down or mob with stacked AMS. OH you could also play as a light. The best matches I have played has had very limited LRMs. We still had to use cover, but could actually engage outside of cover and not be slaughtered. We could bide our time or rush (no matter the mech comp). It was much more satisfying than sitting back in cover for the majority of the match because your mech comp wasn't meant to counter LRM spam.

Heck my single LRM10 on my centurion gets extremely cheap and easy kills consistently even against groups with AMS.

Edited by Noth, 05 November 2012 - 10:22 AM.

[Cowbies]

The LRMs seem a bit op atm. Mainly because they can fly through cover. If I pop out of a tunnel and see the LRMs coming in from the side and back peddle I don't expect so see half of them come through the wall and explode on the other side. If they did actually die when they hit a wall or building they wouldn't be half as effective and would then punish the people that run in the open in a straight line. Also would be nice to see the AMS be a bit more effective but I guess they are leaving room to make the LAMS better but not op.

Just remember it is BETA so this is why we are all playing now (aside form the head startness) to balance and fix things.

Also nerf Gausecats (just getting ahead of next month)

[wanderer]

hanitora, on 04 November 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

Like I said, why even have the missiles in the first place? It's effectively scissors to the rock and there is no paper.

You absolutely NEED to be able to figure out what I am talking about, otherwise you have no place to be discussing balance at all. You are proposing a change where entirely removing the weapon is a preferable alternative.

Three AMS in the same immediate area currently have precisely that effect anyway, and any 'Mech they introduce down the line with AMS standard will end up with dual AMS or more, just like the Atlas-K already does. I'm saying that instead, 'Mechs with no AMS standard get one slot, and 'Mechs with ballistic hardpoints can use AMS in them but get no "freebie" slot for AMS.

AMS eats ammo at hideous rates if there's a constant stream of missiles in the area- I can already exhaust people with a ton of AMS ammo for a single AMS without serious effort if I stream 5-5-5-5... shots from my Atlas. Now imagine having three of them firing at once. Yeah, you'll cancel out much of my missile fire- but not for long. You want to burn 4.5 tons for a triple AMS mount with the same amount of defensive lifespan as one AMS + 1T ammo? Be my guest, but don't tell me the pilot doing so isn't signicantly underarmed as a result, as he's got fewer weapons hardpoints and had to spend a good chunk of tonnage to do so.

Oh, you skimped on ammo? That AMS bubble is gonna last even less time.

For laughs, I had a Raven-3L that'd fire at any decent target with the LRM 15 on it. When I wanted to be a real troll in detecting hidden units, I'd often just fire a shot at some distant random bit of terrain between me and where I wanted to check.

The single missiles exploding one after another would point out where trouble was without a problem, and booooy did it make AMS systems chew through ammo in the process when you'd see one of my shots get your defenses firing for 5-6 seconds straight....on 15 missiles.

[Mordin Ashe]

Yesterday my group was facing an enemy premade. Funny situation, they had two spotters, 5 LRM boats and one gauss or streak cat, can't remember which one. We charged in and, after two minutes of ******* dogfights, we won 8:2. The problem here is, many people know how to play LRM boats, but only a few can do that effectively. Also, many people know how to kill a LRM boat, but only a few can really perform it. It is not a fault of LRMs, most people dying to them did something fundamentaly wrong.

Btw if I take the best LRM boat I can create, i have 1800 missiles at bay and if the enemy team plays well, more than 900 missiles miss completly and the rest is threatened by loosing a lock. For some this may sound like a fairy tale, but I've seen some people really knowing what to do and at their current state, LRMs can't do much to them. It is all in how the player handles the mech.

[Wildger]

Cel, on 05 November 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

You ever wonder why most games everyone carries LRM? most times I see even the lights carry LRM. Don't even tell me it's a versatile weapon, because it's not. You know what's the one consistent thing about players in all multiplayer games? the most overpowered class is always the most played. In this case it's a weapon, and everyone uses it.

Also, please enlighten us on the "many ways to break the LRM lock-on" and how "it's not fun for those who drive a missile boat", please tell us all the tears you shed because you have to move instead of sitting on one spot the entire match.

It is very apparent to me that people who complains are really thinking about their own instead of teamwork. Your team will not do well without any scout or missile boat or assaults. The point is that you should never leave yourself out in the open. Always find a place to hide. When you notice that missles are coming at you, run or hide. Fighting in the ice cave will make any LRM useless. Same as under the bridge and canal in city fight. You need to know where the location is. Counter you enemy missile boats with your own team's missle boats and scouts. That is why you need them. If you get slaughtered by LRM all the time, there is something wrong w your playing style or your team. BTW, most lights carry SSRM which is far more annoant and deadly than LRM. I am surprised that you have not encountered those yet.

[Noth]

Wildger, on 05 November 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

It is very apparent to me that people who complains are really thinking about their own instead of teamwork. Your team will not do well without any scout or missile boat or assaults. The point is that you should never leave yourself out in the open. Always find a place to hide. When you notice that missles are coming at you, run or hide. Fighting in the ice cave will make any LRM useless. Same as under the bridge and canal in city fight. You need to know where the location is. Counter you enemy missile boats with your own team's missle boats and scouts. That is why you need them. If you get slaughtered by LRM all the time, there is something wrong w your playing style or your team. BTW, most lights carry SSRM which is far more annoant and deadly than LRM. I am surprised that you have not encountered those yet.

Again, it's just one specific style and strategy. It's getting stale. Games that have a weapon that dictates such a thing tend to nerf that weapon.

The best most varied matches I've been in have been Light on LRMs. it allowed multiple strategies and shifting of strategies since being in the open didn't mean you were blanketed with LRMs.

Edited by Noth, 05 November 2012 - 10:52 AM.

[CeeKay Boques]

Johnny Human, on 04 November 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

Except when the missiles actually fly through the building/mountain in front of you.

I thought it was just me.