79 replies to this topic

[Taizan]

Keifomofutu, on 04 November 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

Essentially our existing shared target data IS a c3 network already.

This - we have something like a C3i but for 8 mechs.

As this is a pre-emptive thread, target lock on targets that are being marked by someone else (i.e communicated through this special C3i we have) should be exempt from missile locks when disrupted by ECM.

If the target is marked by your own target system, then of course it should be lockable.

[Solis Obscuri]

Kobold, on 04 November 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

First, read this post. Here is the language of consequence: (Emphasis added by Kobold) All I want to know is what the heck are they making ECM do? In TT it has a very limited, specific list of uses. 1) Prevent the bonus from certain targeting systems (Narc, Artemis IV) 2) Break up C3 networks (not in game yet) 3) Power stealth armor (not in game yet) Specifically in regard to point 1, it doesn't make the missile launchers impotent, it just makes the enhanced LRMs act as they would if Narc or Artemis IV were not present. Against most opponents, ECM is basically wasted tonnage in TT. I am not against deviating from TT for gameplay improvement reasons. However it is worrying when PGI is inventing entirely new uses for otherwise relative niche equipment, then mentioning that what they are doing looks to be over powering. Maybe I am being unnecessarily worried, but given the outcome of the last few major changes that have been made, and the massive amount of uproar over them, I have a healthy concern. ------------- Bumping this thread due to the new information posted here: http://mwomercs.com/...dian-ecm-suite/ Language of consequence: The vast majority of the extra benefits are pretty minor, but this is pretty crazy. Not only does this go wildly beyond the standard use of ECM in TT (which as stated before was a niche piece of equipment with fairly minor benefits), but it completely breaks entire categories of weapon systems.

Yeah, I don't agree with you on everything, but this sounds all kinds of broken.

Taizan, on 27 November 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

This - we have something like a C3i but for 8 mechs.

As this is a pre-emptive thread, target lock on targets that are being marked by someone else (i.e communicated through this special C3i we have) should be exempt from missile locks when disrupted by ECM.

If the target is marked by your own target system, then of course it should be lockable.

...except that you get target intel and can use indirect LRM spotting without C3 networks on TT. C3 just gives an accuracy boost to units connected to the same network, so they can use the to-hit modifiers of the 'mech closest to the target.

[Mercules]

Kobold, on 04 November 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

First, read this post. Here is the language of consequence: (Emphasis added by Kobold)



All I want to know is what the heck are they making ECM do? In TT it has a very limited, specific list of uses.

1) Prevent the bonus from certain targeting systems (Narc, Artemis IV)
2) Break up C3 networks (not in game yet)
3) Power stealth armor (not in game yet)

Specifically in regard to point 1, it doesn't make the missile launchers impotent, it just makes the enhanced LRMs act as they would if Narc or Artemis IV were not present. Against most opponents, ECM is basically wasted tonnage in TT.

I am not against deviating from TT for gameplay improvement reasons. However it is worrying when PGI is inventing entirely new uses for otherwise relative niche equipment, then mentioning that what they are doing looks to be over powering.

Sounds like if you are within the 180 meters of the mech with ECM it will mess with your sensors that achieve locks for you. Solution: Don't get within 180 meters of a mech with ECM if you use missiles that lock on. In addition ECM has many other uses in TT, if you used the expanded rules, including creating "Ghost Images" on other's radar and such. Those sound like a module upgrade in combo with ECM but we will see.

[General Taskeen]

I'm just curious how Angel ECM will be implemented later on.

[BlightFang]

I predict games will start out w/ ppl calling "who has ECMs???" followed by whoever responds being mauled en masse by every mech in the team with lots of collisions and the collision damage deaths.

Then, assuming a group manages to get past this phase without the ECM mechs all being crushed to death, they will proceed cuddling around the map in a tightly packed group at possibly very slow speeds(in the case the atlas has it).

Since everyone is tightly packed and not being able to see radar blips, half of games will result in both teams passing by each other and base cap races.

Also, LRMs and streaks will no longer be used. With no missile threats and being forced to huddle in groups, sniping will reign king their related weaponry(so gauss mostly, some other ballistics and maybe some energy weapons).

All just speculation of course...

[Kobold]

Mercules, on 27 November 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

Sounds like if you are within the 180 meters of the mech with ECM it will mess with your sensors that achieve locks for you. Solution: Don't get within 180 meters of a mech with ECM if you use missiles that lock on. In addition ECM has many other uses in TT, if you used the expanded rules, including creating "Ghost Images" on other's radar and such. Those sound like a module upgrade in combo with ECM but we will see.

Good luck getting your fire support mech away from the Jenner who has decided that he's going to make it his job to make you completely non functional. Expect every light to have ECM.

[Trynn]

This will cause changes in tactics and build in the game, there are a limited number of mechs that can carry these, and used properly against an uprepared foe can be devastating. I know i had a few moments of OMG!!! etc. But stopping and thinking it is not that bad...or should not be that bad.

However, things to remember, an ECM can be set to distrupt another ECM. which means that say the atlas DC which can carry one, can set theirs to anti ECM and counter the jenner sneaking around trying to distrupt things..

Adjust, Adapt and overcome, The game will change from how we play it today, but not to the bad, evolution is a good thing and this adds an extra layer to the complexity of what I find an fun game. This does give more advantage to a premade unit - talking 4 mans with pugs, or a PUG that can utilize its assests well (longshot i know).

give it some time after it is launched to see how the community adapts to the new battle field, and trust that if it turns out to be OP or game breaking PGI will address the issue.

The short term issue is a light fast closing with LRM boats.. gettign them in the ECM range and nuetralizing them....so good players need to come up with a counter to that....counter ecm...Light buster...be fun seeing the counters, and the counter counters...

[TruePoindexter]

I'm going to reserve judgement until it goes live. My gut says it's awfully strong especially on the AS7-D-DC and JR7-D. I also would think it should be enabled per chasis not variant. E.G. All Ravens should be able to mount it not just the 3L.

Edited by TruePoindexter, 27 November 2012 - 03:27 PM.

[Kobold]

Trynn, on 27 November 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

The short term issue is a light fast closing with LRM boats.. gettign them in the ECM range and nuetralizing them....so good players need to come up with a counter to that....counter ecm...Light buster...be fun seeing the counters, and the counter counters...

Sure, when you're playing competitively. But woe is to the LRM boat pug, who has no control of who or what he drops with on his team.

[Taizan]

Solis Obscuri, on 27 November 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:

...except that you get target intel and can use indirect LRM spotting without C3 networks on TT. C3 just gives an accuracy boost to units connected to the same network, so they can use the to-hit modifiers of the 'mech closest to the target.

Well obviously we are using a different C3i system than in the TT rulebooks. Maybe a deterioration of accuracy or something like to hit modifiers are more difficult to implement and manage than a "no lock" mechanism. Also this might make the game more interesting.

So far I haven't seen information on how ECM really works - if its just like a temporary thing with a cooldown or permanent, this would be important to continue speculating on how it makes or breaks gameplay.

[TruePoindexter]

Kobold, on 27 November 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

Sure, when you're playing competitively. But woe is to the LRM boat pug, who has no control of who or what he drops with on his team.

Well honestly I think anyone bringing LRM's into a PuG game had better also mount some kind of Laser and enough mobility to keep up fire on a scout. As an example in CB I had my AS7-D-DC loaded with 3x LRM 15 and 2x MPL/LL which was more than enough to punish anything in close range. Sure they scout probably will out DPS you but you have much more armor and if you're being swarmed by multiple scouts you're going to need team help anyway.

[Kobold]

The point is the same when AMS was being 'balanced' earlier in closed beta. Should a 1.5 ton piece of equipment be able to completely nullify some or all of the weapons on a mech?

(And, like in the AMS discussion, it saying "yes" would be a large divergence from the source material)

Edited by Kobold, 27 November 2012 - 03:35 PM.

[100 Tonne]

All I get out of this so far is the death of the PUGS! You really are going to have to balance your team BEFORE you drop. Hopefully they will soon have an ingame lobby.

[Chemie]

I won;t say it is OP yet but it is VERY powerful and therefore a MUST have in a drop (2-3 mechs equipped with it). It basically negates a bunch of other things (LRM, SSRM, TAG, NARC) making all those useless unless countered. However, the counter will be killed quickly making it hard to justify carrying those weapons now.

My take:

BAP useless now; NARC uselss (already was); TAG useless
All drops must have Atlas D-DC
All players will hug the Atlas and move on-mass with Atlas as a blob
No more LRMs
No more SSRM cats

Seems very powerful; only 20 m circle to get lock. Any light with counter on would be quickly targeted; likely not worth trying to counter to get small window for LRMs so this is why I say LRMs are dead. Artemis not worth the weight. LRM boats like not worth having in "real" drops; you know they will have ECM making distance fights too hard to pull off effectively (would take a specific team focus on LRMS with at least 2-3 counter-ECM lights to distrupt which would be too bias a drop to make LRMs work while still having brawl strength too)

Streak cats useless except in 20 m radius. I am surpised they said they were looking at ways to stop streakcats given ECM kills viability of this build.

Lag-shielded Jenner D will be most powerful on the battlefield; followed by Atlas DDC

ECM will be a "must equip" on several mechs in drop
-2 Atlas DDC
- 1-2 scouts

[P4riah1]

As a Jenner D pilot, I say that this is insane. NO Jenner should have this, especially the best variant. I could drop my AMS+ammo and grab this, and become immune to missiles. **** THAT. I will NOT use this on my Jenner. I will not contribute to the insanity.

Leave it to the Ravens. ONE variant of ONE mech of each size (preferably the one with the worst hardpoint layout), should have this, plus all the raven variants and no other light chassis.

[Khobai]

wow ECM is insanely overpowered for something that only weighs like 2 tons.

[Kobold]

Khobai, on 27 November 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

wow ECM is insanely overpowered for something that only weighs like 2 tons.

1.5

[Asakara]

It seems to me from reading the "counters" section that anyone with TAG who is not within 180m of an ECM equipped enemy mech can paint a target within the jamming radius so that friendly missiles can lock on and fire.

Quote

If you are not being disrupted by an enemy ECM, any hidden Mech on the other team that you hit with a TAG laser will be revealed as if it wasn't being hidden. This allows you and your teammates to target and lock on it for as long as you can keep the TAG beam trained on it.

[Mercules]

Kobold, on 27 November 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

Good luck getting your fire support mech away from the Jenner who has decided that he's going to make it his job to make you completely non functional. Expect every light to have ECM.

Um... Kobold... you have played with me. You know I tend to pilot lights AND that my job is to make Fire Support mechs non-functional. Right now LRM based mechs have two choices: Fire upon me with secondary systems(if they were not dumb and have some) and not provide LRM support for the team. Provide fire support for the team and let me kill them. ECM won't make it that much worse unless I've got a hell of a hiding spot near where the fire support likes to hang out and they have to hunt for me first. ECM is fairly short range.

BTW, that is only true if it works the one way. We are speculating with very little to go upon and that is fairly masturbatory.

[Moonsavage]

I was targeting a Raven earlier tonight and my SSRM lock actually got wider rather than locking on.
Is ECM already active???