388 replies to this topic

[Incunabulum]

Odanan, on 13 April 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

It's only me or more people think the Autocannons 2 and 5 are seriously underpowered? They weight too much, use ammo (which is always a risk) and deal a very small damage. OK, they are long range, but any mech can sustain single 2s and 5s of damage for a many turns.

AC/2's *are* useless and AC5's not much better - though an ultra-5 (especially a clan one) is a good main weapon for a light mech.
AC2's have incredible range, but do dick for damage while 5's are better but I'd rather spend the mass/volume on large laser/hs combo - 6 crits with unlimited ammo vice the AC5's 5 for 20 shots at the same mass, along with no ammo explosions. The only drawback is generating 4 net heat with the laser instead of 1.

And that's in TT, in VG the long ranges and slow projectile speeds for direct fire weapons means that capability is mostly wasted. No lead reticle (not-even an iron bracket) means that either you only use them against stationary targets (and only get a couple of shots before he starts moving) or you're REALLLLLY damn good at computing lead by eye.

[Kraven Kor]

Incunabulum, on 05 July 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

AC/2's *are* useless and AC5's not much better - though an ultra-5 (especially a clan one) is a good main weapon for a light mech.
AC2's have incredible range, but do dick for damage while 5's are better but I'd rather spend the mass/volume on large laser/hs combo - 6 crits with unlimited ammo vice the AC5's 5 for 20 shots at the same mass, along with no ammo explosions. The only drawback is generating 4 net heat with the laser instead of 1.

And that's in TT, in VG the long ranges and slow projectile speeds for direct fire weapons means that capability is mostly wasted. No lead reticle (not-even an iron bracket) means that either you only use them against stationary targets (and only get a couple of shots before he starts moving) or you're REALLLLLY damn good at computing lead by eye.

*sigh*

They aren't useless. I promise you, I will be owning people with a Jagermech just as well as with any other piece of hardware. In the right hands, every weapon has its use, and nothing should be removed.

[Phlux Spruentgen]

If you ever drove a kraken (bane) you would not say that ac/2 are useless.
shredding the **** out of enemys far beyond their range is always funny.

surely you have to be in the right terrain, otherwise its useless.

i love the kraken (bane), .. until its out of ammo

[Vasces Diablo]

Tadakuma, on 13 April 2012 - 05:35 AM, said:

If you're in a heavy then it's not you're only weapon. ON a heavy you don't use an AC 5 by itself, it is coupled with a PPC, LRMs or a Large laser. The low heat enables you to use other weapons as well as and maintain a good rate of fire.

In 3025 that's actually a pretty good thing. The Rifleman and Dragon have already been mentioned, but I think a better example is the
Zeus 6S Vs the Zeus 6T - AC 5, LRM 15 & Large Laser Vs PPC, LRM 15 and Large Laser seems like a no brainer but if you look at the heat generated VS damage it isn't as lopsided as you might think 6S 22 Damge (5+8+9 from the LRMS) & 14 Heat - Vs 27 (10-8-9) and 23 heat.

Put simply the 6S can fire everything every turn, while the 6T has to choose it's weapons. Over the first 8 turns of the battle (until the LRMs run out) the 6S actually has a better damage potential then the supposedly superior 6T.

Which designs is better, well probably the 6T but it's not as clear cut as people seem to think and the margin isn't as great as you would imagine.

^this

That's the whole point right there + the argument about delivering damage over time assuming ACs have a higher rate of fire vs PPC/Gause

Double Heat Sinks due mess with this argument a bit, but that's a whole 'nother topic.

[Future Perfect]

Let me point to this thread in the suggestions forum: http://mwomercs.com/...-from-the-game/

[Kraven Kor]

Future Perfect, on 05 July 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

Let me point to this thread in the suggestions forum: http://mwomercs.com/...-from-the-game/

Yes, we know. You have linked that thread here like 19 times.

[AztecD]

dont like AC2/AC5? fine dont use them, some pilots know how to configure a balanced mech, stick with your PPC's and Gauses.

[Kraven Kor]

AztecD, on 05 July 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

dont like AC2/AC5? fine dont use them, some pilots know how to configure a balanced mech, stick with your PPC's and Gauses.

Yup, and while you are overheating, I will be drilling holes into that torso looking for the important bits with my Autocannons.

[mockingfox]

I see alot of people saying the main trade between PPC's and AC's is alpha vs Rof and saying that you essentially have a choice between how you want to play and your roll is and etc. etc.
unfortunatly however high alpha vs high Rof in long ranged weapons is not equally as effective considering that one can be cut short and the other can not. If I am a support sniper mech i dont want to expose myself as a target to the enemy mechs for any amount of time (less missle lock/alpha strike) High alpha allows me to step out/JJ shoot off all my weapons and then duck and run while recycling and cooling down.
with high RoF however i will not only draw alot of attention from pinging off shots but I now become a viable target to close with, and if they do not want to close with me for whatever reason (to far /protected) then they will aim to retreat/look for cover effectivly denying me my supposed damage

When you step back from TT and apply the mechanics to a real time game-space you cannot take the numbers at face value and must consider counter action on the players part.
Rof is good but it far more conditional (catch people out in the open from a hill, surpress a single support etc.) while alpha is far less conditional (i see you i shoot i recycle i shoot i recycle on and on) and this difference is why so many believe Alpha weapons to be "better" than Rof when it isn't, the main difference is just that it requires less placement and timing on the players part (ie less conditional dmg)

hope this makes sense: tryed not to ramble

[Terror Teddy]

AC2 and AC5 are of course horrible...on their own.

You are looking at another situation entirely when it is used against light and medium mechs or when that heavy mech has 4 of them and eats away on your armor.

[IronGoat]

Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrongitty WrongWrong...

TT is a take your time, you have all day to decide what to do, format. with turn-based damage.

In FPS mode your going to get shredded by the small ACs

[Damion Sparhawk]

mockingfox, on 05 July 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

I see alot of people saying the main trade between PPC's and AC's is alpha vs Rof and saying that you essentially have a choice between how you want to play and your roll is and etc. etc.
unfortunatly however high alpha vs high Rof in long ranged weapons is not equally as effective considering that one can be cut short and the other can not. If I am a support sniper mech i dont want to expose myself as a target to the enemy mechs for any amount of time (less missle lock/alpha strike) High alpha allows me to step out/JJ shoot off all my weapons and then duck and run while recycling and cooling down.
with high RoF however i will not only draw alot of attention from pinging off shots but I now become a viable target to close with, and if they do not want to close with me for whatever reason (to far /protected) then they will aim to retreat/look for cover effectivly denying me my supposed damage

When you step back from TT and apply the mechanics to a real time game-space you cannot take the numbers at face value and must consider counter action on the players part.
Rof is good but it far more conditional (catch people out in the open from a hill, surpress a single support etc.) while alpha is far less conditional (i see you i shoot i recycle i shoot i recycle on and on) and this difference is why so many believe Alpha weapons to be "better" than Rof when it isn't, the main difference is just that it requires less placement and timing on the players part (ie less conditional dmg)

hope this makes sense: tryed not to ramble

there's another thing most people don't seem to have mentioned that is certainly a huge benefit to AC's and other ballistic weaponry, and of course that is there's no glowing line pointing out your location to any mech looking when you fire, at worst there's a muzzle flash and maybe an occasional tracer (not sure if there is, just going by popular weapons config) it's a lot like the benefits of a bow over a machine gun, sure a machine gun shoots faster and is more accurate in the hands of an amateur, but it's loud and easy to see and hear, a high speed mech at long range could easily move and shoot around cover and have you spinning around circles trying to figure out where it's coming from, jumping over a hill and popping a few shots and then dodging around the back stuttering off a few rounds between cover points. He may not do a whole lot of damage but if he's got ECM and keeps his distance the only way you'd ever see him is by chance, looking right at him. Even missiles are very easy to figure out their origins, but spotting someone popping off a few rounds at the max range of the AC/2? good luck.

[a rabid chihuahua]

• well I'm always up for a challenge.so I'll give a mech with all light ac's a chance when the game comes out.

[Theodor Kling]

One point for high ROF compared to high alpha dmg are criti al hits. Especially if they implement the occasional through armour crit. But even if not, criss crossing your AC2s over a target gives a lot of single hits, resulting in more crits then hitting with just 2 PPC in the same time.
Big damage weapons, especially ammoless ones, still are very usefull of course.
But AC2s might give you the chance to critically hit a Catapults ammo bins when they are still full.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Unless you're in Beta (and therefore can't say anything) what we don't know is if weapons will have different rates of fire to damage. So far the ranges, etc have been classic values, from what we have seen. "Turn" speed may be faster, ie every 5 seconds, not 10 and armour therefore doubled. For those advocating high RoF as the "redeeming factor. If the AC2 fires 5x faster than the AC10 it deals the same damage, just spread over time, instead of frontloaded. Or is the balance between the weapons supposed to be that it gets through its ammo 5x faster?
The other thing to remember is that the range differentials are much less than MW4. This means that opposing mechs will be able to close the range fairly quickly, or use terrain to get out of sight. We also don't know it TACs are in the game, without them one of the main advantages of the lighter ACs is gone.

[Remarius]

From all accounts out there - the Ultra version of the AC/5 (you know you'll be using it ....) has a ROF thats stunning and you won't be dissapointed.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

But chews through the ammo much faster and (possibly) can jam if used for too long. Will be interesting to see how the Jagermech works. Also if people replace the AC2s with torso mounted LLs or PPCs and DHS. All the videos so far have shown fights at medium to short range.
Playing around with SSW gives some interesting possibilities

[Steffenximus]

Those AC2 and AC5 have great rate of fire, combined with great range makes them a very good alternative to pulse lasers. I played MW4 with multiple AC5s and they were devastating against any kind of enemy, including mechs. I'm sure such will be the case in this game too.

[Tincan Nightmare]

For a mech like the Jagermech, where its 'main' weapons are AC/2's and AC/5's, you don't look at 1 vs 1 effects but instead consider team tactics. If your piloting said Jagermech and are partnered up with close range brawlers, then you stand in the back blazing away with our AC's while they go in and mix it up. With the AC's reach you can also guard them from flanking by light mechs as the quad arrangment can put out enough damage to hurt a light mech.

Another factor to consider is that unlike the TT damage will not be scattered for the AC's. In the board game you could have a Jagermech fire 3 turns in a row with all 4 guns, but hit 4 different locations each turn. Now in MWO the damage will be much more concentrated, more dependent on the players aim. Thats 14 points for each quad salvo, which also means that sandblasting armor will be fairly fast depending on its ROF.

[Ronin1051]

Odanan, on 13 April 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

I've been playing Battletech (table-top) and all Mechwarrior computer series for the last 20 years, so I can say I'm a long time fan.

It's only me or more people think the Autocannons 2 and 5 are seriously underpowered? They weight too much, use ammo (which is always a risk) and deal a very small damage. OK, they are long range, but any mech can sustain single 2s and 5s of damage for a many turns.

The "Rapid-Fire" rule (two shots at the same time, with the risk of complications) improves the use of these weapons, but will it be implemented in the game? Please, devs, say yes!

I would suggest the developers to make it possible for the pilot to shoot again immediately after a shot with the autocannon: the second shot would be harder to hit and has a small chance to jam/destroy the gun.

IMO: Meh! I never really cared for "original flavored" AC's in general, always went for Clan Ultra AC's in all MW's whenever I could. But hey, even AC/2's in say... a group of 6 of them *SHOULD* do considerable damage, maybe not to the effect of Deimos (6 Clan Ultra AC/2's in MW 4 could down an Atlas/Daishi in about 30 seconds of focused fire at the CT), but the best that the IS can currently offer with an AC/2 focused config. :-/ Just a thought... Besides my Clan-Tech bias, think it would be best reserve judgement, thoroughly test all weapons and chassis configs before drawing any final conclusions. I don't think it would make sense to let IS AC's have a second shot (hence why there are Clan/IS Ultra's). As long as AC/2's and AC/5's do more damage than a Machine Gun, and just enough in a pair (or more) to be a thorn in someone's side at range, its done it's job! Everything has a time and place, the whole point of role-based warfare...